Question for guys doing high dose cypionate

sh1973 · Mar 20, 2018

It seems there are a good number of men on these forums doing 150mg per week and above, even older guys. I’m wondering how you can possibly keep hematocrit, hemoglobin and blood pressure in check? I have very high shbg and even at 160mg per week I have terrible sides. I’m just curious if the ones using these high doses are tolerating them because they’re splitting the dose or just not physiologically predisposed to having these common side effects. I’ve seen guys having bad issues with doses of 100mg per week and younger guys at that.

HealthMan · Mar 20, 2018

You can be either lucky or donate blood regularly. Those are the only ways to keep hematocrit down at high dosages. Some reports of grapefruit, losartan helping. But I wouldn’t count on these. Making sure you don’t supplement with iron and tons of vit b12 / C may help as well.

Systemlord · Mar 20, 2018

What everyone else can handle will not pertain to you, it will not change your response to T cypionate.

Vince Carter · Mar 20, 2018

Systemlord said:
What everyone else can handle will not pertain to you, it will not change your response to T cypionate.

Great post. There's way too much of this trying to copy other people when there's a myriad of factors that can't be accounted for at the individual level.

sh1973 · Mar 20, 2018

Really not a post about my response or comparison to myself. Just curious how a lot of men use these high doses without problems.

Vince Carter · Mar 20, 2018

Well, ya, but at any rate I think you did answer your own question though in post #1 as far as I'm reading it.

Nashtide · Mar 20, 2018

I'm always amazed when guys plays post their labs and have TT and FT well above the ranges and they aren't concerned at all.

Vince Carter · Mar 20, 2018

Its all relative, you know some guys think nothing of donating blood every 56 days so it's a non-issue for them, H/H.

RLW · Mar 20, 2018

I have no idea if this is true or not but I have heard endurance athletes that use drugs to boost hematocrit but can not have it too high because they get tested lower it by doing cardio. They just get on the bike and keep checking it until it's dropped to desired level.

Saul · Mar 20, 2018

Nashtide said:
I'm always amazed when guys plays post their labs and have TT and FT well above the ranges and they aren't concerned at all.

Same. Might be the fountain of youth, but it's not TRT, at least not in lab ranges.
And the people I hear about who are on higher level doses and only get labs for FT and TT - not so much because of the good advice.

sh1973 · Mar 20, 2018

There’s no way those high levels can be healthy long term.

FeelingLost · Mar 20, 2018

Nashtide said:
I'm always amazed when guys plays post their labs and have TT and FT well above the ranges and they aren't concerned at all.

sh1973 said:
There's no way those high levels can be healthy long term.

I agree I believe some are cooking them selves from the inside out. Even cyclers (not bikes) know to take breaks.

My first T cyp protocol was 150/wk. I did post my over range bloods and even before I could have my consult I cut my dose by a lot. It was not a fountain of youth to me it was hell and I could not wait to come down. On my consult I was praised for being proactive and I got permission to experiment to see how low I can go and still get the benefits I am looking for.

AbsoluteZ3R0 · Mar 20, 2018

In reference to the "over range" comments, it doesn't help that Labcorp lowered their reference range July of last year. Some guys had TT levels of 1100 that were considered normal for years, that are now considered over range. Should they be unnecessarily concerned due to some arbitrary change in reference range? It's hard to draw the line, but in most cases other health markers observed over the course of several years will indicate whether or not a dose is "too high."

Country23030 · Mar 20, 2018

FeelingLost said:
I agree I believe some are cooking them selves from the inside out. Even cyclers (not bikes) know to take breaks.

My first T cyp protocol was 150/wk. I did post my over range bloods and even before I could have my consult I cut my dose by a lot. It was not a fountain of youth to me it was hell and I could not wait to come down. On my consult I was praised for being proactive and I got permission to experiment to see how low I can go and still get the benefits I am looking for.

Lowest effective dose is always best practice.

Systemlord · Mar 20, 2018

sh1973 said:
There’s no way those high levels can be healthy long term.

This really is your only option, you've been struggling for 8 years do to your high SHBG and high HCT when on large doses of testosterone. Short of a liver transplant, this is how you must play it.

Vince · Mar 21, 2018

My current protocol is 16mg of Testosterone Cypionate daily and 500iu of HCG twice a week. After being on TRT for just over two years and donating blood every 8 weeks, my HCT finally stabilized. I haven't needed to donate blood since February of 2017.

sh1973 · Mar 21, 2018

The one thing that strikes me as odd regarding my situation is, whenever I’ve tried to stop trt, which has been 4 times, around days 10-13 I get a short span of feeling amazing in every aspect. It doesn’t matter whether my last dose was 120mg, 100mg or 80mg. I mean every symptom is gone and I have libido thru this short lived window. This without a doubt, is nearing the lowest levels each time. Maybe everyone experiences this, not really sure. I’ve did large doses all the way up to 200mg weekly which put my levels on day 7 at 1920ng. There was nothing in any way good about the way I felt. Anything over 120mg starts to go south in a hurry. Another thing is this crap people say regarding the time to feel a dosage change, I can tell within two weeks of changing dose. I stayed at 160mg for several weeks last year, doing 80mg twice weekly and by week four I literally could barely get out of bed. There was no elevated E2 or any of the other crap you here. My theory is for some of us androgen overload is a real problem and hcg, arimidex, or any other anciallry drug isn’t going to fix it. The best I felt on TRT was the first 18 months or so doing Androgel 1.62. My insurance stopped paying, so I went to injectable. My levels on agel were only 600-650ng but I felt well. I tried compounded creams a couple times, but was unable to duplicate the results with agel. Maybe guys like me are a lost cause with TRT, bu I have to keep trying or live in the pits of hell with 150ng t levels. Quiet a spot to be in by any standards.

Vince Carter · Mar 21, 2018

I do (or am) starting to come around to the possibility that all the sides we deal with come from or Drs putting at the upper limit, or over, in one or both TT/FT then there's the forum posts that push the same narrative of being in the upper (and over) limits when the logical thing is probably targeting Free T alone and basing dosing off of that. For the low SHBG guy it's particularly imperative, I think, to not run supraphysiological Free T levels. I ponder sometimes would the blood donations and phlebotomy's and Anastrozole use go away if we as a community went in that direction; Free T.

sh1973 · Mar 21, 2018

Good reply Vince. Just think about it, none of us, or 99.9% of us have never at any point in our lives had total t over 1000ng. I had to have a hormonal panel in my mid 20s for another reason other than TRT and my total level was 770ng early morning. This point in my life I wouldn't have changed a thing and libido was thru the roof. You don't see teenagers taking arimidex or donating blood. You seem like a sensible and knowledgable guy, but you have to admit, its absolutely asinine to have a 60y/o man with a t level of 1400ng and I have seen this countless times. We didn't need levels like this at 18y/o and sure as hell don't need them at 50-60y/o. I can't help but believe guys running these high number will eventually pay the price. Look at Dr Crisler, picture of good health, just had a massive heart attack. I don't know what he does as far as dosing and its none of my business, but 60y/o men don't have physiques like that with 600ng t levels. I totally agree with you, when you say that we as a community need to take a more cautious approach. Take the shbg theory for example, you always here you have to have high levels to overcome it to feel better. In my case and several others I've talked to over the years, this ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT WORK. I think we as a community and the good doctors that want to help guys like us will eventually figure out better ways to treat hormonal deficiencies, but we are not there now, not by a long shot.

FeelingLost · Mar 21, 2018

sh1973 said:
Good reply Vince. Just think about it, none of us, or 99.9% of us have never at any point in our lives had total t over 1000ng. I had to have a hormonal panel in my mid 20s for another reason other than TRT and my total level was 770ng early morning. This point in my life I wouldn't have changed a thing and libido was thru the roof. You don't see teenagers taking arimidex or donating blood. You seem like a sensible and knowledgable guy, but you have to admit, its absolutely asinine to have a 60y/o man with a t level of 1400ng and I have seen this countless times. We didn't need levels like this at 18y/o and sure as hell don't need them at 50-60y/o. I can't help but believe guys running these high number will eventually pay the price. Look at Dr Crisler, picture of good health, just had a massive heart attack. I don't know what he does as far as dosing and its none of my business, but 60y/o men don't have physiques like that with 600ng t levels. I totally agree with you, when you say that we as a community need to take a more cautious approach. Take the shbg theory for example, you always here you have to have high levels to overcome it to feel better. In my case and several others I've talked to over the years, this ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT WORK. I think we as a community and the good doctors that want to help guys like us will eventually figure out better ways to treat hormonal deficiencies, but we are not there now, not by a long shot.

Wait are you talking about a new heart attack or the one back in 2016?