Nandrolone Experiences

[Gman86]

You would be considered extremely fortunate if a primary care doc is willing to prescribe this. If you haven't asked them yet or aren't sure then brace yourself for some possible backlash. The vast majority of doctors consider it taboo because of abuse in sports rather than looking at its therapeutic applications and they incorrectly assume that it can't be prescribed to anyone.

It was discontinued, and you have to get it from a compounding pharmacy. I use Empower Pharmacy in Houston. Defy prescribes it and Empower ships it to me via UPS.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "switch", so pardon the assumption but if you are considering a switch from Testosterone to Nandrolone, that will not work because Nandrolone is not a replacement for T - it will actually drive T down even further as all androgens do. Testosterone is still a requirement and is commonly prescribed at a ratio of 2:1 T:N.

This actually may not be true. Androgen receptors cannot tell the difference whether being stimulated by nandrolone, or testosterone. Nandrolone cannot be run by itself for HRT purposes, due to the very low aromatization. But from my understanding, nandrolone can be used for a base, in regards to HRT, and a small dose of testosterone could be used to give a slight bump in E2.

The only issue I see, in regards to HRT, is that I don’t think nandrolone can legally be prescribed for a sole TRT compound. Obviously it can be prescribed, in addition to testosterone, for HRT, but I wonder if defy would ever switch the ratio, and allow a patient to use nandrolone as a TRT base, with a small dose of testosterone. I know a Defy patient that was prescribed a 1:1 ratio of test:deca. So it doesn’t seem out of the question for them to prescribe say 150mg of deca, with 50-75mg of test

 

[JimboTRT]

it will actually drive T down even further as all androgens do.

@Jason Sypolt - What about someone on TRT? Does an androgen lower exogenous T as well? Free T and Total T?

 

[Gman86]

@Jason Sypolt - What about someone on TRT? Does an androgen lower exogenous T as well? Free T and Total T?

Exogenous T cannot be lowered by another compound. If your inject 100mg of test cyp, doesn’t matter how much deca you use, you’re still getting 100mg of test cyp

if you’re asking if adding an androgen, like deca, to your TRT will effect your T levels, the answer is basically no. It wont lower or raise total T. It can potentially increase free T though, by reducing the amount of T that is bound to SHBG.

Nandrolone is a separate molecule from testosterone. So no matter how much nandrolone you add, it will not raise testosterone levels, because it’s not testosterone, it’s nandrolone. So what Jason maybe was saying is, say you’re taking 150mg of test, and then lower your T dose to 100mg, and add in 50mg of deca, your total T level will drop, because your T dose dropped, and the deca will not add anything to your T level. But it doesn’t matter, because deca still stimulates the androgen receptors, and that’s all the androgen receptors care about. All they care about is being stimulated, to carry out their effects. So whether you stimulate them with nandrolone, or testosterone, they will carry out the same exact effects.

 

[JimboTRT]

Thanks @Gman86. I guess I read too much into Jason's statement that "All androgens drive T down". That is definitely true in context and regards to natural T - i.e. someone doing an androgen only cycle. I just wasn't sure regarding exogenous T. If the latter was true, then it would possibly explain why some people have better experiences than others when on an androgen and TRT - Nandrolone, Anavar, etc. It's a mute point though if exogenous T is unaffected.

 

[Gman86]

Thanks @Gman86. I guess I read too much into Jason's statement that "All androgens drive T down". That is definitely true in context and regards to natural T - i.e. someone doing an androgen only cycle. I just wasn't sure regarding exogenous T. If the latter was true, then it would possibly explain why some people have better experiences than others when on an androgen and TRT - Nandrolone, Anavar, etc. It's a mute point though if exogenous T is unaffected.

Exactly. Androgens can only lower T levels when natural

 

[Jason Sypolt]

@Jason Sypolt - What about someone on TRT? Does an androgen lower exogenous T as well? Free T and Total T?

No, an androgen can't lower exogenous T because there is really no way to do that - you are getting what you inject, apply, etc. into the body and nothing is going to stop that - absorption rates, digestion, and things like that aside. What the other androgens will do is compete with T for androgen receptors and SHBG as well as lower SHBG which can give you some strange-looking lab results if you aren't expecting that such as crazy high T or a Total T that is half what you thought. Therein lies the importance of being thorough with your lab follow ups if you really want to see and understand what is going on and not just base what you are doing off of how you feel and partial assumptions. I had a draw for my follow up labs this morning and it was 7 tubes for my large protocol.

Androgens will lower endogenous T, that is what your body naturally produces. The negative feedback loop that controls this process is sensitive to more than T alone. There have been some instances of substituting testosterone in TRT with Nandrolone or SARM's. But I have never seen an instance of it working out well, let alone as being considered for a life-long treatment, and I don't think that there is currently enough understanding and data on the subject. DHT derivatives and metabolites will give you a lot of the same benefits of T and in some cases exhibit even more powerful effects so it makes logical sense, but the body also seems to require T specifically and the other androgens can't replicate that closely enough. So you end up with side effects like the well-known ED from Nandrolone. That happens when not enough (or zero) T is used along with it. With enough T however, Nandrolone has definitely boosted my own libido. Like anything else, doses and then results from those will also vary from person to person.

 

[Gman86]

No, an androgen can't lower exogenous T because there is really no way to do that - you are getting what you inject, apply, etc. into the body and nothing is going to stop that - absorption rates, digestion, and things like that aside. What the other androgens will do is compete with T for androgen receptors and SHBG as well as lower SHBG which can give you some strange-looking lab results if you aren't expecting that such as crazy high T or a Total T that is half what you thought. Therein lies the importance of being thorough with your lab follow ups if you really want to see and understand what is going on and not just base what you are doing off of how you feel and partial assumptions. I had a draw for my follow up labs this morning and it was 7 tubes for my large protocol.

Androgens will lower endogenous T, that is what your body naturally produces. The negative feedback loop that controls this process is sensitive to more than T alone. There have been some instances of substituting testosterone in TRT with Nandrolone or SARM's. But I have never seen an instance of it working out well, let alone as being considered for a life-long treatment, and I don't think that there is currently enough understanding and data on the subject. DHT derivatives and metabolites will give you a lot of the same benefits of T and in some cases exhibit even more powerful effects so it makes logical sense, but the body also seems to require T specifically and the other androgens can't replicate that closely enough. So you end up with side effects like the well-known ED from Nandrolone. That happens when not enough (or zero) T is used along with it. With enough T however, Nandrolone has definitely boosted my own libido. Like anything else, doses and then results from those will also vary from person to person.

I’ve been learning a ton about nandrolone recently, and have learned some very interesting things, that I either didn’t know about it, or thought incorrectly about it. Deca dick, is one of those things, for example. And I’m not saying this is 100% facts, just saying this is what I’ve heard from guys that have studies nandrolone to high heavens, and guys using nandrolone only, or at least nandrolone as a base, themselves. According to them, nandrolone sensitizes the E2 and prolactin receptors. So any E2 and prolactin in the system, will have more of an impact. Nandrolone alone, produces very very low amounts of both E2 and prolactin. Again, according to them, nobody experiences deca dick, when nandrolone is used alone, at high enough doses. I say high enough doses, because when ran alone, you need to use a dose that will produce enough E2. When used at lower doses, if sexual function is an issue, it can usually be easily remedied with adding a small dose of an aromatizing compound, like HCG and/ or testosterone. They say that 99% of “deca dick” cases, are a result of too much testosterone on the system, along with the deca. Not the deca itself. This is due to nandrolone sensitizing the E2 and prolactin receptors, and making the E2 and prolactin from the testosterone more potent, and causing sexual function is issues. According to them, it’s also not good to have too much DHT in the system, at the same time as a bunch of DHN. Apparently it causes issues at the receptor level when levels of both are too high at the same time. I’m not 100% clear on the whole mixing DHN and DHT thing, but I think that it’s something along those lines.

Like I said, I’m no expert on nandrolone or anything, at this point, but it seems that you may be incorrect about deca dick being caused by not using enough exogenous T, when using deca. I’ve talked to quite a few guys on nandrolone alone, that have no issues, and a few of the guys I talked to are part of a fb group, where literally hundreds and hundreds of men are either using nandrolone alone, with great success, or using nandrolone with a small dose of testosterone, for the E2 boost, again with great success. But invariably, when you talk to guys that get “deca dick”, they almost always report taking higher doses of test than nandrolone. In my experience, whenever I ask someone that reports having “deca dick” they report using higher doses of test than deca, 100% of the time. I’ve only asked maybe 25-30 guys tho, in either the Youtube comments of a video, fb groups, and or forums. Here’s a few videos that kind of explain what I’m talking about.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1541736599308080

 

[Gman86]

@Jason Sypolt im not saying I’m right, and you’re wrong. I’m just saying that there’s a lot of info about nandrolone that I had no idea about, until talking to a few guys in depth about it, specifically one guy that was extremely helpful, that is currently using 300mg of deca, 40mg of test, and 500iu’s of HCG per week, and feels amazing and says his libido is annoyingly high. All I’m saying is that you’re clearly a very intelligent guy, and know your stuff when it comes to hormones and wellness. I’d love for you to take a deep dive into nandrolone, and hear your interpretation of the information, specifically in regards to the possibilities of switching the ratios, and using nandrolone as a base, and using testosterone as an add-on, instead of the other way around.

 

[Gman86]

@Jason Sypolt when you say that the body seems to require T specifically, and other androgen can’t replicate that, what exactly did you mean? I could be wrong, but from my current understanding, an androgen receptor only cares that it’s stimulated. It cannot tell what it’s being stimulated by. Whether that be by a nandrolone molecule, or testosterone molecule. As long as it’s stimulated, it will carry out the same exact effects, regardless of what it is stimulated by. Again, I could be wrong on this.

 

[slicktop]

@Jason Sypolt when you say that the body seems to require T specifically, and other androgen can’t replicate that, what exactly did you mean? I could be wrong, but from my current understanding, an androgen receptor only cares that it’s stimulated. It cannot tell what it’s being stimulated by. Whether that be by a nandrolone molecule, or testosterone molecule. As long as it’s stimulated, it will carry out the same exact effects, regardless of what it is stimulated by. Again, I could be wrong on this.

I think this goes back to what Dr. Saya was saying about synthetic vs bioidentical hormones. Because something can stimulate a receptor doesn't mean it has the same effects as a bioidentical hormone.

 

[Jason Sypolt]

I've seen the videos. Honestly I would avoid the YouTube stuff, MD or not. They simply don't know, no one does - and putting their best educated guesses on YT for the masses to take as the closest thing to fact because most people prefer some answer to none is just irresponsible. You can say literally anything on YT for clicks and attention. I personally wouldn't put my health to that kind of test.

That said, these are a couple of papers from the people doing real research. The Baylor fellows are the tip of the spear in understanding androgens in health - churning out research paper after paper like it's their life's purpose.

Beyond testosterone cypionate: evidence behind the use of nandrolone in male health and wellness

Nandrolone decanoate relieves joint pain in hypogonadal men: a novel prospective pilot ...

 

[Jason Sypolt]

I think this goes back to what Dr. Saya was saying about synthetic vs bioidentical hormones. Because something can stimulate a receptor doesn't mean it has the same effects as a bioidentical hormone.

Testosterone also has more than one purpose than simply existing to bind to androgen receptors.

 

[slicktop]

Testosterone also has more than one purpose than simply existing to bind to androgen receptors.

That's a much better way of saying what I was meaning... thank you!

 

[JimboTRT]

Thanks @Jason Sypolt

 

[Gman86]

I've seen the videos. Honestly I would avoid the YouTube stuff, MD or not. They simply don't know, no one does - and putting their best educated guesses on YT for the masses to take as the closest thing to fact because most people prefer some answer to none is just irresponsible. You can say literally anything on YT for clicks and attention. I personally wouldn't put my health to that kind of test.

That said, these are a couple of papers from the people doing real research. The Baylor fellows are the tip of the spear in understanding androgens in health - churning out research paper after paper like it's their life's purpose.

Beyond testosterone cypionate: evidence behind the use of nandrolone in male health and wellness

Nandrolone decanoate relieves joint pain in hypogonadal men: a novel prospective pilot ...

Just got done reading the first study. It’s basically saying that nandrolone has great potential, in all aspects, as a form of hormone therapy for hypogonadal men. I’m not seeing any downsides to the study. The only downside that they mentioned, was in regards to ED, but what they put is extremely wishy washy, imo. Here’s what they wrote.


Nandralone and ED
”In spite of its potential beneficial uses described above, one major limitation to the use of nandrolone in hypogonadal males stems from the fact that a relationship may exist between the use of nandrolone and ED. Although the World Health Organization INCHEM database compiled by the International Program on Chemical Safety (http://www.who.int/ipcs/en) lists impotence under adverse effects of nandrolone; no consistent reports of ED associated with the use of nandrolone have been reported in the literature.
Anecdotal evidence from patients, as well as those men who have previously used nandrolone from “alternative” sources suggests a relationship with the use of nandrolone (alone, not in combination with testosterone) and ED. Indeed, nandrolone may contribute to the development of ED through two mechanisms: the suppression of testosterone/DHT via negative feedback and the buildup of estrogens.”

They literally say “ no consistent reports of ED associated with the use of nandrolone have been reported in the literature.”

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I’m not impressed at all with the way they went about their reporting of nandrolone. They then go on to talk about anecdotal reports from patients, as well as men using UGL deca. “[/FONT] Anecdotal evidence from patients, as well as those men who have previously used nandrolone from “alternative” sources” How is this any different than what I’m doing?

Then they try to explain why nandrolone may cause ED by saying this “ Indeed, nandrolone may contribute to the development of ED through two mechanisms: the suppression of testosterone/DHT via negative feedback and the buildup of estrogens.” It’s confusing that they keep referring to a “build up of estrogens” when nandrolone coverts very little to E2. The guy in the anabolic doc video was on 300mg of deca, and had an E2 or 6, and the guy I go back and forth with on fb is on the same dose of deca, and has an E2 of 5.7. So unless they have studied nandrolone, and concluded that it converts quite a bit into estrone and/ or estriol, I’m not sure why they think this would be a mechanism that we cause ED. To me, it just seems like a study where the people running the study don’t fully understand nandrolone. Imo, part of the reason that some men may get ED in nandrolone solo, is because of a lack of estrogen, not a build up. And from what I’ve heard from men using nandrolone alone, DHN is strong enough to carry out all the same effects that DHT does. Obviously DHN isn’t close to as strong as DHT, at the receptor level, but for them it doesn’t seem to have any negative consequences.

Again, I’m not saying I know everything about nandrolone. I’m just saying that I think most people misunderstand how it actually works. Clearly even the people at Bayer are just greatly hypothesizing. The things that I’ve learned about nandrolone recently, and the pretty compelling anecdotal evidence that I’ve seen, I just think we need to do two things when it comes to this AAS. 1) Keep an open mind in regards to what this AAS actually does, and the effects it has in our body 2) be willing to forget some of the myths that have been recirculated by many, in regards to the effects this AAS has in our body. For instance, I used to think deca dick was from elevated prolactin. Turns out, while using nandrolone by itself, prolactin levels will be considerably lower than they are while taking testosterone.

 

[Gman86]

Testosterone also has more than one purpose than simply existing to bind to androgen receptors.

I definitely have to look into this. You’re probably right. If that’s true, then even if one were to use nandrolone as a base, it would be beneficial to use some testosterone, not only for the boost in E2, but also due to their being a need for some circulating testosterone in the body to carry out the purposes you referenced. You wouldn’t happen to know what those purposes are, by any chance, would you? Not being sarcastic or anything. I’m honestly curious now. I’m not married to nandrolone or anything. I’m honestly just intrigued at the new information that I’m learning about it, and it’s potential, and love to learn about this type of stuff in general. Arguing and/ debating is extremely archaic, imo. It’s just plain stupid. I’d rather have educated discussions, with intelligent people like yourself, and use the knowledge we both have to work together to come to the best conclusions on subjects like these

 

[Gman86]

@Jason Sypolt just read the second study. I thought you were posting the studies to try and refute the use of nandrolone in replacement of testosterone. Were you posting those to backup the benefits of nandrolone vs testosterone?

 

[Cataceous]

Testosterone also has more than one purpose than simply existing to bind to androgen receptors.

Another one is to be the raw material for estradiol production. Anything else?

 

[Gman86]

Another one is to be the raw material for estradiol production. Anything else?

Nandrolone can do that as well. I’m curious what testosterone is needed for that nandrolone can’t do.

 

[Jason Sypolt]

Another one is to be the raw material for estradiol production. Anything else?

You are right. I was alluding to the aromatization and 5-ar processes. Replacing T with substances that are similar to the results of those processes such as DHT or DHN isn't a replacement. We do not fully understand those processes and mimicking the results is not mimicking everything that happens during the processes.

There is uncertainty and inconclusive information in the papers, and that is the reason why I referenced them. Given what is known, it is unwise to use androgens without testosterone.

We can take T for decades, a lifetime. These proponents of N-only HRT are talking about higher doses like 300mg which is a lot. And I see some shockingly low E2 examples, that has long-term health consequences This isn't new, the bros do this stuff all the time and then they come here needing help. There are going to be side effects and safety issues, particularly long-term. Cycles aren't HRT. Are they going to drop the dose and add in some T when things go sideways? Then that is also not Nandrolone-only and proves that it doesn't work as replacement for TRT.

My point is that this experiment is attempted over and over by guys who don't even know what an androgen receptors is in gyms every day and it's not effective, and sometimes unsafe. Who wants to sign up to that for life? That's what this is - lifelong reolacement. Each is free to draw their own conclusions and make choices, but that rules it out for me. I am definitely a fan of Nandrolone, but not it's use exclusively.