Nandrolone Experiences

[slicktop]

Mike is nothing short of an androgen expert in my humble opinion. I frequently have my consults with him Anabolics will compete with T for androgen receptors and some for SHBG. If the androgen (like Nandrolone) has a stronger binding affinity than T, then the T can't bind and is free.

Excuse my ignorance here, but: what good is free T if it can't bind with a receptor that's already busy with nandrolone?

 

[Cataceous]

Excuse my ignorance here, but: what good is free T if it can't bind with a receptor that's already busy with nandrolone?

In addition, nandrolone's affinity for SHBG is only 5% that of testosterone, so overall probably a pretty limited effect on free T at sane doses.

 

[slicktop]

In addition, nandrolone's affinity for SHBG is only 5% that of testosterone, so overall probably a pretty limited effect on free T at sane doses.

I guess that's a good thing, but... I'm clearly missing something here. Lets say I have 100 receptors. Testosterone got lucky with 20 of them and bound, but nandrolone bullied out and got the other 80. In this instance, what good is all that free T doing floating around in my blood stream? Or am I just waaaay over simplifying this and i missing the big picture?

 

[Cataceous]

I guess that's a good thing, but... I'm clearly missing something here. Lets say I have 100 receptors. Testosterone got lucky with 20 of them and bound, but nandrolone bullied out and got the other 80. In this instance, what good is all that free T doing floating around in my blood stream? Or am I just waaaay over simplifying this and i missing the big picture?

A couple things: Nandrolone may have a stronger binding affinity for the androgen receptor (double?) than testosterone. Beyond that, I suspect nandrolone and testosterone do similar things once bound to the androgen receptor. But in addition, nandrolone is converted to DHN instead of DHT, and DHN is much less androgenic. So you get a lot of anabolic activity relative to androgenic. "The conversion of testosterone into DHT is an important factor in the etiology of a variety of androgen-dependent conditions, including acne, excessive facial/body hair growth, scalp hair loss, prostate enlargement, and prostate cancer. Unlike the case of testosterone and DHT, 5α-DHN is a much weaker agonist of the androgen receptor (AR) than is nandrolone. For this reason, instead of local potentiation in androgenic tissues, there is a local inactivation when nandrolone is converted into 5α-DHN by 5α-reductase in these tissues."[1]

 

[Gman86]

I guess that's a good thing, but... I'm clearly missing something here. Lets say I have 100 receptors. Testosterone got lucky with 20 of them and bound, but nandrolone bullied out and got the other 80. In this instance, what good is all that free T doing floating around in my blood stream? Or am I just waaaay over simplifying this and i missing the big picture?

This is a good point that you’re bringing up. Id like you hear someone explain this that actually knows what they’re talking about

 

[slicktop]

A couple things: Nandrolone may have a stronger binding affinity for the androgen receptor (double?) than testosterone. Beyond that, I suspect nandrolone and testosterone do similar things once bound to the androgen receptor. But in addition, nandrolone is converted to DHN instead of DHT, and DHN is much less androgenic. So you get a lot of anabolic activity relative to androgenic. "The conversion of testosterone into DHT is an important factor in the etiology of a variety of androgen-dependent conditions, including acne, excessive facial/body hair growth, scalp hair loss, prostate enlargement, and prostate cancer. Unlike the case of testosterone and DHT, 5α-DHN is a much weaker agonist of the androgen receptor (AR) than is nandrolone. For this reason, instead of local potentiation in androgenic tissues, there is a local inactivation when nandrolone is converted into 5α-DHN by 5α-reductase in these tissues."[1]

This makes it sound like a mild dose of nandrolone to compliment testosterone, with the test being slightly lower than typically prescribed, would be the "Goldilocks" of TRT. Thoughts?

 

[Gman86]

This makes it sound like a mild dose of nandrolone to compliment testosterone, with the test being slightly lower than typically prescribed, would be the "Goldilocks" of TRT. Thoughts?

Seems to me this would be the case. once you learn about other compounds, such as nandrolone and oxandrolone, and learn about how they can compliment testosterone, and allow a person to not even have to consider an ai, it almost seems silly to just use testosterone, imo.

In the near future, I think we’re gonna look back on the times where men used testosterone and an ai for their protocol, as the caveman days of HRT. Again, just my opinion.

 

[slicktop]

In the near future, I think we’re gonna look back on the times where men used testosterone and an ai for their protocol, as the caveman days of HRT. Again, just my opinion.

You mean the way we now look at biweekly 200mg shots administered at a doctor's office?

 

[Cataceous]

This makes it sound like a mild dose of nandrolone to compliment testosterone, with the test being slightly lower than typically prescribed, would be the "Goldilocks" of TRT. Thoughts?

Perhaps. It seems as though concurrent nandrolone use is like increasing your testosterone dose but with a reduced side-effects profile. However, we do sometimes get into trouble when we fiddle with ratios that are normally set endogenously. Finasteride, anyone?

 

[Gman86]

You mean the way we now look at biweekly 200mg shots administered at a doctor's office?

Haha exactly. Or how some doctors used to, and still may, go by just total T. Btw, we look at guys that only go by total T as borderline retarded, and know that free T is mostly what we should concentrate on, yet every doctor and every guy on TRT only tests for total E2, and not free E2. If free T is what matters, wouldn’t E2 be the same thing, and we should only be focusing on free E2? This never made any sense to me. But that’s a whole other can of worms. Bottom line, I guarantee HRT is going to look very different than it does now, in the near future, and is going to be much more successful, imo. Which makes sense. It wouldn’t make sense to adjust things and decrease the success rate. There’s going to be many men that fight the change tooth and nail, and then there’s going to be men that are open minded and are willing to progress with the times. But the change is going to happen, and I can already see it happening, to a certain degree, thank god.

Having all these tools in our tool belt, but only using one tool, never made sense to me. It’s like building a house but only using a hammer. Wouldn’t it be advantageous to use all the tools at your disposal?? I understand old carpenters are going to use the tools that they’re use to, and not be comfortable with using new age tools or technology to build the house, but times change whether they like it or not, and the tools are eventually going to become commonplace, again, whether they like it or not. It’s the same thing with HRT. They can make fun of the new guys and their technology and tools all they want, but once these new guys figure out how to use the tools and technology properly, they’re going to be building houses much quicker and more efficiently than the way the old guys did it. Again, same with HRT. Once doctors learn how to use all these compounds, in conjunction with eachother, HRT is going to progress by leaps and bounds.

 

[Jason Sypolt]

Cataceous is right. Nandolone is many times more anabolic than testosterone. They both work in different ways and in same and different tissues but work synergistically together and have a magnified effect when used together.

I don't think that Free T is the end all be all that some lead us to beleive. It's certainly important and you can feel it, but if you have something much more powerful available then you are going to want that anyway. Most guys have 2-4% Free T. I have seen more than a few who got over 5% and feel horrible. I look at Free T as a lab result the same I do Estradiol and anything else for that matter. It's just 1 variable and there is always, always more than 1 variable in feeling great.

 

[slicktop]

Cataceous is right. Nandolone is many times more anabolic than testosterone. They both work in different ways and in same and different tissues but work synergistically together and have a magnified effect when used together.

I don't think that Free T is the end all be all that some lead us to beleive. It's certainly important and you can feel it, but if you have something much more powerful available then you are going to want that anyway. Most guys have 2-4% Free T. I have seen more than a few who got over 5% and feel horrible. I look at Free T as a lab result the same I do Estradiol and anything else for that matter. It's just 1 variable and there is always, always more than 1 variable in feeling great.

How likely is it to get side effects when adding in low dose nandrolone? I want to try it for my joints, but I'm so happy with my current protocol that I'm also kinda afraid to rock the boat.

 

[DS3]

In regard to nandrolone and testosterone both competing for the androgen receptor, I'd like to remind everyone that I have posted before about quantitative evidence of what this means in practical application.

Here is the scenario:

Early 2019 (Q1) I was taking 175 mg (50 mg EOD) of Test Cyp/Prop blend. TT came back at 1300 ng/dL at its peak (not SHBG or Free T measurement).

Began nandrolone in late Q2 2019 at 100 mg per week (33 mg EOD), 150 units HCG 2x weekly, as continued 50 mg EOD of Test Cyp/Prop. TT came back at 500 ng/dL at its peak.

The only difference between my protocols was the small addition of HCG + 100 mg per week of nandrolone. My peak TT decreased by 800 ng/dL.

I also personally felt like I had low T again (low libido, depression, lethargy, etc.).

This type of competitive binding may be a good thing for those who are having major issues within estrogen control because your body will simply be using less of the testosterone you are taking, and thus less testosterone will be aromatized and you E2 will be lower. However, it was quite a negative experience for me.

 

[fifty]

You mean the way we now look at biweekly 200mg shots administered at a doctor's office?

Stuff has been around for 60 years. There’s only so many ways to get testosterone into your ass.

The old book “A Brave New World” is now reality.

 

[Gman86]

In regard to nandrolone and testosterone both competing for the androgen receptor, I'd like to remind everyone that I have posted before about quantitative evidence of what this means in practical application.

Here is the scenario:

Early 2019 (Q1) I was taking 175 mg (50 mg EOD) of Test Cyp/Prop blend. TT came back at 1300 ng/dL at its peak (not SHBG or Free T measurement).

Began nandrolone in late Q2 2019 at 100 mg per week (33 mg EOD), 150 units HCG 2x weekly, as continued 50 mg EOD of Test Cyp/Prop. TT came back at 500 ng/dL at its peak.

The only difference between my protocols was the small addition of HCG + 100 mg per week of nandrolone. My peak TT decreased by 800 ng/dL.

I also personally felt like I had low T again (low libido, depression, lethargy, etc.).

This type of competitive binding may be a good thing for those who are having major issues within estrogen control because your body will simply be using less of the testosterone you are taking, and thus less testosterone will be aromatized and you E2 will be lower. However, it was quite a negative experience for me.

Thanks so much for posting this anecdotal experience. I can’t wait to hear more anecdotal experiences from guys, especially with lab work, that start implementing low dose nandrolone into their protocols. I wonder if this is a common thing for nandrolone to reduce total T, when added to a TRT protocol

 

[Cataceous]

In regard to nandrolone and testosterone both competing for the androgen receptor, I'd like to remind everyone that I have posted before about quantitative evidence of what this means in practical application.

Here is the scenario:

Early 2019 (Q1) I was taking 175 mg (50 mg EOD) of Test Cyp/Prop blend. TT came back at 1300 ng/dL at its peak (not SHBG or Free T measurement).

Began nandrolone in late Q2 2019 at 100 mg per week (33 mg EOD), 150 units HCG 2x weekly, as continued 50 mg EOD of Test Cyp/Prop. TT came back at 500 ng/dL at its peak.

The only difference between my protocols was the small addition of HCG + 100 mg per week of nandrolone. My peak TT decreased by 800 ng/dL.

I also personally felt like I had low T again (low libido, depression, lethargy, etc.).

This type of competitive binding may be a good thing for those who are having major issues within estrogen control because your body will simply be using less of the testosterone you are taking, and thus less testosterone will be aromatized and you E2 will be lower. However, it was quite a negative experience for me.

These are really strange results, possibly to the point where lab error could be suspected. First, was this mass spectrometry-based testosterone testing? It's been reported that the standard test is reactive to nandrolone. But that would push results in the opposite direction. HCG would, if anything, also tend to push the results in the opposite direction, with the later measurement higher. But the dose is small. Was SHBG measured? If SHBG dropped significantly then it's anticipated that total testosterone, but not free testosterone, would drop some with the same dose of testosterone. However, the effect should not be this large. Did you test free testosterone by any method? In the absence of large changes in SHBG these readings should roughly track total testosterone, thus confirming or disputing the results.

Finally, was your cypionate/propionate blend 80%/20%? Propionate is going to make measurements inherently less stable and more sensitive to timing and absorption conditions.

 

[DS3]

These are really strange results, possibly to the point where lab error could be suspected. First, was this mass spectrometry-based testosterone testing? It's been reported that the standard test is reactive to nandrolone. But that would push results in the opposite direction. HCG would, if anything, also tend to push the results in the opposite direction, with the later measurement higher. But the dose is small. Was SHBG measured? If SHBG dropped significantly then it's anticipated that total testosterone, but not free testosterone, would drop some with the same dose of testosterone. However, the effect should not be this large. Did you test free testosterone by any method? In the absence of large changes in SHBG these readings should roughly track total testosterone, thus confirming or disputing the results.

Finally, was your cypionate/propionate blend 80%/20%? Propionate is going to make measurements inherently less stable and more sensitive to timing and absorption conditions.

I have tried to look up which laboratory method was used, but the specific method is not specified. Both of these tests were done by Clinical Pathology Laboratories in Austin, TX (through the Baylor College of Medicine).

I have Free T and SHBG reading for the Q1 protocol, but not SHBG or Free T for the second protocol, which is problematic. The assessment for the 2nd protocol in which I added HCG and nandrolone was reconfirmed after initial testing.

The cyp/prop blend was 80%/20%, but I was taking the shots EOD at 50 mg meaning 40 mg was coming from cyp and 10 from prop each shot. I would imagine that this low of prop would add minimal variations in peak and trough TT.

These tests results were both conducted 24 hours post shot.

 

[sammmy]

If you have joint/tendon pains, you could try beta-ecdysterone: Cyanotis Vaga extract about 1000mg/day. In my personal experience, it reduces/eliminates joint/tendon pains from previous injuries and it helps with endurance too. It did not suppress my testosterone but may slightly decrease estradiol in males - it binds to aromataze according to some research. It also increases strength and slightly muscle size - binds to estrogen beta receptor according to latest research.

The Cyanotis Vaga extracts that are being sold often claim 95% of beta-ecdysterone but actual lab analysis shows typically below 10%. Just find some extract with genuine positive reviews on endurance/strength/recovery/joints. The effect is noticeable after a few days of supplementation.

 

[backdr10]

Perhaps I am just misinformed and someone could give me correct information as I am trying to get my primary to switch me to this medication . But good rx shows nandrolone discontinued by manufacturer. Does anyone know the status or perhaps the med is developed under a different name. My drug databases show discontinued also . Thanks

 

[Jason Sypolt]

Perhaps I am just misinformed and someone could give me correct information as I am trying to get my primary to switch me to this medication . But good rx shows nandrolone discontinued by manufacturer. Does anyone know the status or perhaps the med is developed under a different name. My drug databases show discontinued also . Thanks

You would be considered extremely fortunate if a primary care doc is willing to prescribe this. If you haven't asked them yet or aren't sure then brace yourself for some possible backlash. The vast majority of doctors consider it taboo because of abuse in sports rather than looking at its therapeutic applications and they incorrectly assume that it can't be prescribed to anyone.

It was discontinued, and you have to get it from a compounding pharmacy. I use Empower Pharmacy in Houston. Defy prescribes it and Empower ships it to me via UPS.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "switch", so pardon the assumption but if you are considering a switch from Testosterone to Nandrolone, that will not work because Nandrolone is not a replacement for T - it will actually drive T down even further as all androgens do. Testosterone is still a requirement and is commonly prescribed at a ratio of 2:1 T:N.