Nandrolone added to TRT to reduce DHT?

[pfuked]

Very interesting. My current protocol, as of yesterday is basically just what you were on 20 years ago. I’m currently on 200mg deca, 35mg test, and 500iu’s HCG.

What made you even consider using nandrolone as your base 20 years ago? And the fact that you knew to use low dose test, I’m assuming to boost e2, you were way ahead of your time with this way of thinking/ protocol.

So you’re currently only doing 100iu’s of HCG E3D? Why such a low dose?

I started using nandrolone over testosterone back then because I was concerned about hair-loss, and I knew nandrolone had minimal androgenic side effects. I added the low dose testosterone just to keep enough test in my system, because of what I had read on stacking the 2 together. I wasn't thinking about e2 at the time.

I am doing low dose HCG now because too high a dose gives me e2 symptoms. I also want to keep my DHT levels at low to low-normal--I've read testosterone produced by your testis can get converted to DHT via 5-AR2 fairly quickly via its expression in your testicles.

 

[Gman86]

I started using nandrolone over testosterone back then because I was concerned about hair-loss, and I knew nandrolone had minimal androgenic side effects. I added the low dose testosterone just to keep enough test in my system, because of what I had read on stacking the 2 together. I wasn't thinking about e2 at the time.

I am doing low dose HCG now because too high a dose gives me e2 symptoms. I also want to keep my DHT levels at low to low-normal--I've read testosterone produced by your testis can get converted to DHT via 5-AR2 fairly quickly via its expression in your testicles.

Wow that’s crazy how you were able to come up with those concepts on your own 20 years ago, and just recently guys are figuring out the same thing.

So your total dose of HCG is 200iu’s/ week? Does this even do anything noticeable?

If DHT is something that worries you, and you seem to have E2 issues with using test as your base, why don’t you just solve both issues and go back to using nandrolone as your base with low dose test and/ or HCG?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Nandrolone, even as monotherapy, can increase acne like any anabolic steroid used alone or with testosterone. Some men are prone to acne. Some do not get acne at all. Here are some good discussions on how to minimize sebum build up that can lead to acne:

Acne on testosterone and anabolic steroids

 

[pfuked]

Wow that’s crazy how you were able to come up with those concepts on your own 20 years ago, and just recently guys are figuring out the same thing.

So your total dose of HCG is 200iu’s/ week? Does this even do anything noticeable?

If DHT is something that worries you, and you seem to have E2 issues with using test as your base, why don’t you just solve both issues and go back to using nandrolone as your base with low dose test and/ or HCG?

Yeah, 200 units/week HCG is barely enough to notice anything. It is enough to keep my balls from disappearing, which is the only reason why I still use it.

My current protocol works really well, but I do have to take 0.25 mg AI 2x a week. I don't mind.

With all the new threads on nandrolone, I have thought about switching things up. I would have to move over to Defy from my current doc though, since he will not prescribe nandrolone current. Seriously considering it, especially if it'll help with hair growth like it did 20 years ago.

 

[Gman86]

Yeah, 200 units/week HCG is barely enough to notice anything. It is enough to keep my balls from disappearing, which is the only reason why I still use it.

My current protocol works really well, but I do have to take 0.25 mg AI 2x a week. I don't mind.

With all the new threads on nandrolone, I have thought about switching things up. I would have to move over to Defy from my current doc though, since he will not prescribe nandrolone current. Seriously considering it, especially if it'll help with hair growth like it did 20 years ago.

Im a big advocate of if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it. So if ur feeling great on ur current protocol, not sure if it would be smart to switch it up. I understand the need to use an ai with some men, but I personally will never take an ai again as a long as I live. If I were you, I might consider switching to Defy to try a nandrolone based protocol just to avoid having to use an ai

 

[Gman86]

@pfuked have you tried increasing your dose past 200iu’s per week? It’s crazy that this dose in fact prevents testicular atrophy for u. This is by far the lowest dose I’ve ever seen any guy on before.

 

[pfuked]

Im a big advocate of if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it. So if ur feeling great on ur current protocol, not sure if it would be smart to switch it up. I understand the need to use an ai with some men, but I personally will never take an ai again as a long as I live. If I were you, I might consider switching to Defy to try a nandrolone based protocol just to avoid having to use an ai

I definitely look and feel great on my current protocol. I still have about 70% of my hair too, but I am a minoxidil addict and have been for as long as I remember. Minoxidil can cause bloating and water retention, especially in the face. With my current diet and workout routine it isn't a problem though. If I started nandrolone again I could get rid of the AI and minoxidil. Hmmm

Anyway, keep us posted on the protocol Gman. It'll be interesting to hear how you look and feel on it.

Also, I have tried up to 300 units HCG every three days - used this amount when I first started this protocol. I looked an felt okay at that dose, but felt like I was holding a bit of water in my face, and my hair seemed to shed more than usual.

 

[Gman86]

I definitely look and feel great on my current protocol. I still have about 70% of my hair too, but I am a minoxidil addict and have been for as long as I remember. Minoxidil can cause bloating and water retention, especially in the face. With my current diet and workout routine it isn't a problem though. If I started nandrolone again I could get rid of the AI and minoxidil. Hmmm

Anyway, keep us posted on the protocol Gman. It'll be interesting to hear how you look and feel on it.

Also, I have tried up to 300 units HCG every three days - used this amount when I first started this protocol. I looked an felt okay at that dose, but felt like I was holding a bit of water in my face, and my hair seemed to shed more than usual.

Will definitely make a post with my progress on the new protocol after some time passes

What’s your current protocol again? I’m sure u posted it already. Sorry if u did.

 

[pfuked]

Will definitely make a post with my progress on the new protocol after some time passes

What’s your current protocol again? I’m sure u posted it already. Sorry if u did.

60 mg test cyp and 100 units hcg every 3 days. AI every Sunday and Thursday @.25 mg. Hair is holding steady, no bloat, and consistent nighttime and morning wood.

 

[madman]

I would appreciate any professional opinion on adding nandrolone to TRT to help attenuate high DHT symptoms, specifically acne.

For example;

If the current protocol was 100mg of a testosterone ester per week.

With the protocol being ideal, but for the acne due to DHT conversion.
Would 'exchanging' 30mg of the testosterone ester for 30mg of a nandrolone ester (of similar weight, so that the resulting nandrolone at the depot site is basically equal in dosage to the 'swapped testosterone' after being dehydrolysed) lessen the acne issue due to Nandrone being a non DHT derivative 19nor test ?
So in essence, the total dosage would be the same (100mg per week). However only 70mg being able to convert to DHT
Any feedback from you gentlemen would be greatly received.

Nelson replied:

Friday at 4:43 PM
#23
Nandrolone, even as monotherapy, can increase acne like any anabolic steroid used alone or with testosterone. Some men are prone to acne. Some do not get acne at all. Here are some good discussions on how to minimize sebum build up that can lead to acne:

Acne on testosterone and anabolic steroids


To add to that point:

William Llewellyn’s book:
ANABOLICS


"As mentioned, testosterone also elicits androgenic activity, which occurs by its activating receptors in what are considered to be androgen responsive tissues (often through prior conversion to dihydrotestosterone. See DHT Conversion). This includes the sebaceous glands, which are responsible for the secretion of oils in the skin. As the androgen level rises, so does the release of oils. As oil output increases, so does the chance for pores becoming clogged (we can see why acne is such a common side effect of steroid use). The production of body and facial hair is also linked to androgen receptor activation in skin and scalp tissues. This becomes most noticeable as boys mature into puberty, a period when testosterone levels rise rapidly, and androgen activity begins to stimulate the growth of hair on the body and face. Some time later in life, and with the contribution of a genetic predisposition, androgen activity in the scalp may also help to initiate male-pattern hair loss. It is a misconception that dihydrotestosterone is an isolated culprit in the promotion of hair loss, however; as in actuality it is the general activation of the androgen receptor that is to blame (see DHT Conversion). The functioning of sex glands and libido are also tied to the activity of androgens, as are numerous other regions of the central nervous/neuromuscular system"


DHT and Androgenic Side Effects

"In some regards, this local potentiation of testosterone's activity may be unwelcome, as higher androgenic activity in certain tissues may produce a number of undesirable side effects. Acne, for example, is often triggered by dihydrotestosterone activity in the sebaceous glands, and the local formation of dihydrotestosterone in the scalp is typically blamed for triggering male pattern hair loss. You should know that it is a terrible misconception among bodybuilders that dihydrotestosterone is an isolated culprit when it comes to these side effects. All anabolic/androgenic steroids exert their activities, both anabolic and androgenic, through the same cellular androgen receptor"

"Dihydrotestosterone is no different than any other steroid except that it is a more potent activator of this receptor than most, and can be formed locally in certain androgen-sensitive tissues. All steroids can cause androgenic side effects in direct relation to their affinity for this receptor, and DHT has no known unique ability in this regard"

The main point to keep in mind regarding acne or hair loss (genetically prone individuals).....is that DHT is not the sole contributor and it is the general activation of the AR that is responsible.

As Nelson stated any AAS other than testosterone can result in acne in genetically prone individuals.

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

I like to add a DHT derivative for different reasons to my T, like Proviron, Masteron and Stanozolol but have had no acne ever during my 8 months on TRT.

 

[Gman86]

I like to add a DHT derivative for different reasons to my T, like Proviron, Masteron and Stanozolol but have had no acne ever during my 8 months on TRT.

Got to ask now. What are those reasons for adding a dht derivative?

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

Got to ask now. What are those reasons for adding a dht derivative?

Freeing T(binding to SHBG), control E2(weak AI/ER antagonist), improved prostate control, urination, libido & sex mood/sensitivity, ejaculate volume & force. 12.5-25mg/day Mesterolone(Provironum)
Visceral fat burning and muscle hardening. 10-15mg/day Drostenolone Enanthate(Masteron)
Strength, aggression and speed. 6-10mg/day Stanozolol.
They all make me a bit more awake and aware(CNS stimulant?), drive to workout or just do things with my family.
Better zest for life then just plain T.
Big fan of the DHT derivatives here, I just cycle them, change when I empty a vial or end a box of tabs.

Have not tried any Oxandrolone(Anavar) but its on the list......

I do not know how to put this differenty but they make me feel more ¨manly¨.

 

[Gman86]

Freeing T(binding to SHBG), control E2(weak AI/ER antagonist), improved prostate control, urination, libido & sex mood/sensitivity, ejaculate volume & force. 12.5-25mg/day Mesterolone(Provironum)
Visceral fat burning and muscle hardening. 10-15mg/day Drostenolone Enanthate(Masteron)
Strength, aggression and speed. 6-10mg/day Stanozolol.
They all make me a bit more awake and aware(CNS stimulant?), drive to workout or just do things with my family.
Better zest for life then just plain T.
Big fan of the DHT derivatives here, I just cycle them, change when I empty a vial or end a box of tabs.

Have not tried any Oxandrolone(Anavar) but its on the list......

I do not know how to put this differenty but they make me feel more ¨manly¨.

What an amazing description! Did not expect all that info lol. Definitely saving all this. I’d love to know if you have just as good results in oxandrolone. Out of the legal dht derivatives, oxandrolone is the only one I’d consider, and appears to be the safest. Winstrol is the other legal DHT derivative, but have heard it has a tendency to make joints feel worse

How many weeks do you cycle on and off of these?

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

It really depends on how I feel, do I want/need a change. A box of Provinorum has 50x25mg tabs which could be a 50-100 days(did 80). Then I popped a vial of 200mgx10ml of Masteron which could be about 100-200 days.

I did a short 4 week run on Stanozolol but although I liked the mental aspect of it 2x5tabsx2mg was the max for me. After 1 week I had a issue with aggression, water retention, pain in my feet and arthritis kind of pain in my fingers. That dose was a bit to high...but 2x3tabsx2mg was fine and great in the gym. Made me a bit more astute....lol

 

[bp]

Nelson replied:

Friday at 4:43 PM
#23
Nandrolone, even as monotherapy, can increase acne like any anabolic steroid used alone or with testosterone. Some men are prone to acne. Some do not get acne at all. Here are some good discussions on how to minimize sebum build up that can lead to acne:

Acne on testosterone and anabolic steroids


To add to that point:

William Llewellyn’s book:
ANABOLICS


"As mentioned, testosterone also elicits androgenic activity, which occurs by its activating receptors in what are considered to be androgen responsive tissues (often through prior conversion to dihydrotestosterone. See DHT Conversion). This includes the sebaceous glands, which are responsible for the secretion of oils in the skin. As the androgen level rises, so does the release of oils. As oil output increases, so does the chance for pores becoming clogged (we can see why acne is such a common side effect of steroid use). The production of body and facial hair is also linked to androgen receptor activation in skin and scalp tissues. This becomes most noticeable as boys mature into puberty, a period when testosterone levels rise rapidly, and androgen activity begins to stimulate the growth of hair on the body and face. Some time later in life, and with the contribution of a genetic predisposition, androgen activity in the scalp may also help to initiate male-pattern hair loss. It is a misconception that dihydrotestosterone is an isolated culprit in the promotion of hair loss, however; as in actuality it is the general activation of the androgen receptor that is to blame (see DHT Conversion). The functioning of sex glands and libido are also tied to the activity of androgens, as are numerous other regions of the central nervous/neuromuscular system"


DHT and Androgenic Side Effects

"In some regards, this local potentiation of testosterone's activity may be unwelcome, as higher androgenic activity in certain tissues may produce a number of undesirable side effects. Acne, for example, is often triggered by dihydrotestosterone activity in the sebaceous glands, and the local formation of dihydrotestosterone in the scalp is typically blamed for triggering male pattern hair loss. You should know that it is a terrible misconception among bodybuilders that dihydrotestosterone is an isolated culprit when it comes to these side effects. All anabolic/androgenic steroids exert their activities, both anabolic and androgenic, through the same cellular androgen receptor"

"Dihydrotestosterone is no different than any other steroid except that it is a more potent activator of this receptor than most, and can be formed locally in certain androgen-sensitive tissues. All steroids can cause androgenic side effects in direct relation to their affinity for this receptor, and DHT has no known unique ability in this regard"

The main point to keep in mind regarding acne or hair loss (genetically prone individuals).....is that DHT is not the sole contributor and it is the general activation of the AR that is responsible.

As Nelson stated any AAS other than testosterone can result in acne in genetically prone individuals.

Thanks for the reply.

The info youve posted seems to go along with my hypothesis.

(That i can reduce the acne by switching 25% of the testosterone ester, for a nandrolone ester. ie)drop the total weekly testosterone dosage by 25%, and replace it with an equal dosage of nandrolone, so the total weekly dosage is the same)

The DHN from the nandrolone being ‘weaker’ in ‘expression’ on the AR than DHT, and hopefully reducing the acne.

Ill give it a bash, as ive not found any threads on anyone thats done a substitution of agents (a non DHT for a DHT specifically)
The norm seems to be adding compounds to existing protocols. Which, by the looks of clinical data, serves to activate the AR even more. (Whether its a non DHT derivative or not)

Ill post an update in a few months just incase anyone gives a shit

 

[Fortunate]

Thanks for the reply.

The info youve posted seems to go along with my hypothesis.

(That i can reduce the acne by switching 25% of the testosterone ester, for a nandrolone ester. ie)drop the total weekly testosterone dosage by 25%, and replace it with an equal dosage of nandrolone, so the total weekly dosage is the same)

The DHN from the nandrolone being ‘weaker’ in ‘expression’ on the AR than DHT, and hopefully reducing the acne.

Ill give it a bash, as ive not found any threads on anyone thats done a substitution of agents (a non DHT for a DHT specifically)
The norm seems to be adding compounds to existing protocols. Which, by the looks of clinical data, serves to activate the AR even more. (Whether its a non DHT derivative or not)

Ill post an update in a few months just incase anyone gives a shit

Update?