Low dose nandrolone with low dose testosterone

Greetings everyone,
I am 48 years old. 5'5", 150 lbs, 15% body fat. Currently doing a mild ketogenic diet to lose some adipose and bloat. I D/C'd t cyp at 87 mg/week via 3.5 injections per week due to bloat, high E2 symptoms, and no "benefit" on 12/13/19. I cannot tolerate ANY AI. I use zinc at 50mg qd. I have tried every "natural" AI. Currently I am on clomid 25mg qd until at the earliest April but may go longer. I have been on and off TRT in various forms since 2011. My main reasons for discontinuation are a combination of high E2 symptoms and the trt "stops working" (which is of course inter-related). I have tried as low as 49 mg t cyp per week via daily injections shallow IM and as high as 400mg t cyp Q 3 weeks and just about every dose, schedule, and type of testosterone in between. I have tried 16 different protocols over the last 9 years. I am curious about low dose Nandrolone as I have DISH disease with tendon and enthesis pain in many joints (elbows, achilles, low back, knees, etc).

Questions:

What would be the LOWEST dose of T Cyp and an equal amount of Nandrolone per week I could see benefits with? 50mg/50mg?

Any other therapeutic low dose AAS to consider?

I've heard about benefits from 25mg oral Stanazolol per week with TRT but i am recovering from a patellar tendon rupture surgery (3.5 months post op) and I understand Winstrol is hard on tendons (but it can lower shbg - mine is around 50).
Is it best to determine dose via the TOTAL mg of products being injected? Meaning if I aromatize too much at 87mg T Cyp per week then I will have the same or worse E2 difficulties at 50mg nandrolone and 50 mg T Cyp combined?

If I have trouble tolerating a therapeutic dose of testosterone due to high E2 symptoms can Nandrolone "make up the difference" or would I still have low testosterone symptoms?

Does Nandrolone have an AI type effect - or is it that it has a low androgenicity as compared to testosterone?

Could Clomid have any AI type benefit at 25mg per day with nandrolone and T Cyp on board?

Thank you,
Nate

 

Is there a way to get Nelson Vergil's opinion on the tendon issue?

@Nelson Vergel

 

Thank you. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

 

I think I will ask for the Proviron prescription as i usually discontinue trt due to E2 issues and a loss of "that good feeling" (which I believe is due to E2 levels moving up in my case). I will monitor my tendon insertion symptoms. I believe that when I do restart TRT I will do T Cyp with Nandrolone for the first 6-8 weeks. If I have any E2 related issues I will try adding the Proviron. If I feel any tendon issues during this "testing phase" I will D/C the Proviron of course. I really do need to try something new because I have only had that "good" trt twice for about 3 months each time over the last 9 years. Very frustrating. Its such a great feeling. I REALLY want to feel that way again: Strong, motivated, no injury pain/joint pain/tendon pain, great endurance, and great libido. Then it just goes away...

 

I think I will ask for the Proviron prescription as i usually discontinue trt due to E2 issues and a loss of "that good feeling" (which I believe is due to E2 levels moving up in my case). I will monitor my tendon insertion symptoms. I believe that when I do restart TRT I will do T Cyp with Nandrolone for the first 6-8 weeks. If I have any E2 related issues I will try adding the Proviron. If I feel any tendon issues during this "testing phase" I will D/C the Proviron of course. I really do need to try something new because I have only had that "good" trt twice for about 3 months each time over the last 9 years. Very frustrating. Its such a great feeling. I REALLY want to feel that way again: Strong, motivated, no injury pain/joint pain/tendon pain, great endurance, and great libido. Then it just goes away...

I find that I feel the same as you are describing. The only reason I able to maintain that 'good' feeling the majority of the time now is because (1) I realized that for me, EOD propionate injections help me manage E2 the best, and gives me the best overall feeling (2) Incorporating low-dose HCG after years of staying away from it. HCG has really played a significant role in helping me maintain the good mood, libido, and energy that you feel at the beginning of TRT. Without it, I feel pretty terrible. The way you talk about HCG and very extremely avoidant of it because of E2 problems was where I was 12 months ago. After modifying my protocol (EOD Prop) and adding low dose HCG back in (150 IU EOD) everything is significantly better.

 

I'm glad to know it isn't just me. I am still waiting to hear from my compounding pharmacy. I know they fill 80/20 Cyp/Prop blend. But I vaguely remember going down this path in 2015 and them saying that straight T prop is only used undergound by steroid abusers (and then getting a lecture from the pharmacist that derailed into nonsense).
I prefer changing one variable at a time or I do not know what may have caused said symptom change. Right now I have a new unopened 10mL vial of T cyp collecting dust.

 

Thank you DS3. I am still waiting to hear back from the pharmacy regarding T prop. Thank you for the dose schedule for proviron. I had immense trouble with E2 on HCG and have no desire to try again. Here is the study that concerns me about Procollagen Type III: Increased content of type III collagen at the rupture site of human Achilles tendon. - PubMed - NCBI
Thank you very, very much. It's helpful to have other people's perspective.

I don’t understand your concern regarding your tendon issue and this study. Can you elaborate why?

 

Hi Silver. Procollagen Type III is the primary type of collagen in bone so it is extremely strong - but also brittle and not stretchy (I can't think of a more scientific term). The theory is that tendons remodel over time when using AAS to have more type III and less Type I (the kind you want in tendons - stretchy). Not that I tore my patellar tendon due to this remodelling (trauma), but I have other tendons that hurt. Thanks for asking.

 

I'm glad to know it isn't just me. I am still waiting to hear from my compounding pharmacy. I know they fill 80/20 Cyp/Prop blend. But I vaguely remember going down this path in 2015 and them saying that straight T prop is only used undergound by steroid abusers (and then getting a lecture from the pharmacist that derailed into nonsense).
I prefer changing one variable at a time or I do not know what may have caused said symptom change. Right now I have a new unopened 10mL vial of T cyp collecting dust.

I can agree 100% with changing one variable at a time.

 

Hi Silver. Finally woke up enough to think - the word I was looking for is "elastic". Not stretchy.

 

Question for you all. Would 12-25mg QD or QOD clomid added to testosterone and nandrolone be of any use for E2 management?

 

Question for you all. Would 12-25mg QD or QOD clomid added to testosterone and nandrolone be of any use for E2 management?

It theoretically could be as it will likely increase SHBG and thus reduce free estrogen. However, that would also reduce free testosterone so you might not actually feel better. I personally have tried your proposed approach before and felt much more estrogenic, especially mentally with the head fogs and feminization I feel when my estrogen gets too high. Clomid is a racemic mixture of zuclomiphene (estrogenic) and enclomiphere (anti-estrogenic). So Clomid contains both estrogenic and anti-estrogenic properties.

 

Thank you. Sounds like proviron will be what I try first. Do I need any pramipexole or cabergoline with 30mg of nandrolone decanoate / wk?

 

Thank you. Sounds like proviron will be what I try first. Do I need any pramipexole or cabergoline with 30mg of nandrolone decanoate / wk?

My advice would be absolutely not. I haven't heard of anyone truly needing prami or caber even on 200 mg/week of nandrolone per week. I will let others chime in, but I can assume they would agree. 30 mg/week is a very very low dosage.

 

30mg of nandrolone a week is super low. I’d also like to hear others opinion about caber necessity at 200mg week nandrolone.

 

Proviron Feedback: I have personally seen unreal benefits in terms of suppressing estrogen expression from 12.5 mg Provirion EOD. Some guys with very high SHBG will tell you a minimum 25 mg per day, with 50 mg being much more preferable. However, those dosages have been demonstrated to lower HDL by as much as 30%, and with you taking low doses of T, these dosages should not be necessary. I would personally start with 12.5 mg EOD or E3D to begin with and see how you feel after 3-4 weeks, as well as what tests results show for (1) Free T (2) DHT (3) E2 (4) HDL (5) SHBG. Personally while I am using 75 mg T prop and 150 IU HCG EOD, I get by with just using 12.5 mg Proviron 1x per week.

Collagen Feedback: I personally feel that long-term testosterone therapy has reduced collagen production in my skeleton and integumentary systems. My joints feel dry and achy when I am just taking T, and my skin is dry and semi-pale. HCG helps to some degree, but I can say that nandrolone certainly makes my skin younger-looking, joints feel much better, and overall I feel that my body feels younger.

Patellar Tendon Feedback: Nandrolone has been successfully used by doctors and athletes to speed recovery and improve outcomes of rehabilitation due to its characteristics involving increased procollagen III levels. It might not be a bad idea to go ahead and incorporate nandrolone sooner than summer 2020.

When you mentioned nandrolone hello my ya make skin look younger and joints feel much better, what dose were you using?

 

Is proviron legal to prescribe in the u.s.?

 

Thank DS3. So, most likely, the side effects I would experience on 60mg Tcyp with 30mg nandrolone would be predominantly E2? Other than hematocrit...

 

I spoke to my compounding pharmacy and they do not have an extra clean room to make T Propionate. I'm not certain about Proviron being legal in the US. My Dr. said he would prescribe it but I haven't found a pharmacy (Hopefully I'll kmow more after the Holidays). My Dr. doesn't know much if anything about Proviron. Chances are after he's looked into it more it will be a non-starter.

 

Does anyone else know about proviron’s legal status? I’m pretty sure it’s in the same category as testosterone, just not sure if everyone that’s taking it is getting it prescribed in the u.s., getting it prescribed in another country, or getting it UGL

 

I spoke to my compounding pharmacy and they do not have an extra clean room to make T Propionate. I'm not certain about Proviron being legal in the US. My Dr. said he would prescribe it but I haven't found a pharmacy (Hopefully I'll kmow more after the Holidays). My Dr. doesn't know much if anything about Proviron. Chances are after he's looked into it more it will be a non-starter.

Proviron is on the FDA list to be approved but has never been approved. It is used primarily in Europe. I get Bayer brand from a UGL supplier. Individuals in the UK are frequently prescribed Proviron as an adjunct to TRT. It is not a bad drug, just had yet to be approved by the FDA (and likely never will be).