Injectable Progesterone SC may not be the best route of administration

[Gianluca]

I don't have the knowledge many of you have about prog, but Georgi Dinkov asserts that certain adverse effects of progesterone in men can be offset by combining it with DHEA. It is clear that Progesterone has great anti-catabolic (anti-cortisol) effects. Take enough of it, and you'll feel like your in mother's womb (in a pro-metabolic / well being sense).

that is a good point, hypothyroidism people can have same issue with Progesterone

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I just increased the dose since Thursday from 1mg to 1,5mg and switched to abdomen, and I feel crazy again, erections and wild sex thoughts

I just think I may not doing well injecting steroids into the fat.

You've got me scratching my head here. As Gman and I have said, the sexual effects you're getting from progesterone are basically the holy grail that many of us are chasing with our protocol adjustments. Why is it unwelcome in your case?

 

[Gman86]

I don't have the knowledge many of you have about prog, but Georgi Dinkov asserts that certain adverse effects of progesterone in men can be offset by combining it with DHEA. It is clear that Progesterone has great anti-catabolic (anti-cortisol) effects. Take enough of it, and you'll feel like your in mother's womb (in a pro-metabolic / well being sense).

Wouldn’t prog possibly increase cortisol levels, since cortisol is a downstream metabolite of progesterone?

 

[Jim Marlowe]

Wouldn’t prog possibly increase cortisol levels, since cortisol is a downstream metabolite of progesterone?

"Progesterone, pregnenolone, T, and DHT are all within the group of steroids with anti-cortisol effects and a drop in the levels of any of them contributes to a relative increase in glucocorticoid signaling."

Stress (cortisol) can cause ANY autoimmune condition by disrupting gut barrier – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

Again, I'm not that knowledgeable, but I've heard the bionergetics people characterize "anabolic" as really "anti-catabolic." In other words, opposing catabolism is inherently pro metabolic and pro-growth.

 

[Gman86]

"Progesterone, pregnenolone, T, and DHT are all within the group of steroids with anti-cortisol effects and a drop in the levels of any of them contributes to a relative increase in glucocorticoid signaling."

Stress (cortisol) can cause ANY autoimmune condition by disrupting gut barrier – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

Again, I'm not that knowledgeable, but I've heard the bionergetics people characterize "anabolic" as really "anti-catabolic." In other words, opposing catabolism is inherently pro metabolic and pro-growth.

Im definitely not an expert on the subject either. Thanks for this. Could definitely be accurate

 

[Gianluca]

You've got me scratching my head here. As Gman and I have said, the sexual effects you're getting from progesterone are basically the holy grail that many of us are chasing with our protocol adjustments. Why is it unwelcome in your case?

it just doesn't feel right, it feels like years ago when my E2 was uncontrolled, minus the erection quality benefit, plus feeling wired and like I'm on something. Just the opposite of what Pro is suppose to do, and the opposite of Pro is Estrogen, which is excitatory.

I have switched to IM today same dose, I will see in a few days if anything changes.

 

[Gianluca]

"Progesterone, pregnenolone, T, and DHT are all within the group of steroids with anti-cortisol effects and a drop in the levels of any of them contributes to a relative increase in glucocorticoid signaling."

Stress (cortisol) can cause ANY autoimmune condition by disrupting gut barrier – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

Again, I'm not that knowledgeable, but I've heard the bionergetics people characterize "anabolic" as really "anti-catabolic." In other words, opposing catabolism is inherently pro metabolic and pro-growth.

this is true, in fact Progesterone can lower ACTH, which I would think Pro would more like reduce the stress response. However, Pro can also feed the pathways and increase cortisol.

Individual variations, and possibly the mechanism is dose dependent as well, with little Pro "helping" to produce cortisol, when more or allot more Pro reducing Cortisol. This what I have observed throughout the years

 

[Jim Marlowe]

@Cataceous @Gman86 @JA Battle I would like to know your opinion on this

I noticed that when I was on the 1,5mg or even worse at 2.5mg dose of Progesterone SC, I would experience some side effects such as being emotional, and way too much on the 2.5mg, and also more body hair growth, crazy sexual drive, erection and I even thought my penis would look bigger as well.

All of this, without increasing my Progesterone that much from baseline, while you guys with similar dosing increased Pro to mid range or more. Perhaps, injection site may play a role as I will explain below; I generally inject on the upper part of my butt, where there is plenty of fat.

I started to scratch my head about it, knowing that Pro oppose E2 so why my symptoms? I figured out that Progesterone can be first converted to androstenedione in fat tissues, possibly explaining the increase hair growth and penis benefits, but androstenedione can also be converted to estrone in the same fatty tissues again possibly explaining my emotional symptom.

Does injecting Pro SC where there is little to no fat would lead to higher Pro levels and less conversion to metabolites? perhaps that is why you guys increased levels more and did not complain about side effects?

I have been reading for the past several months the work of Ray Peat.

He studied Progesterone and Estrogen extensively since the 70"s I believe. He understood the importance of Progesterone, and figured out that the best route of administration is micronized Pro dissolved in Vitamin E.

Dissolving Pro in Vitamin E, will make it avoid that first pass through the liver. He, like some of us here, understood this was important.

Georgi Dinkov who studied extensively the work of Ray Peat, discuss with Dr Mercola in this video, how Progesterone dissolved in Vitamin E, can actually have a 48Hr half life.

I think this could be a possible alternative to injections, if not even better.

You can skip to 30:00mn

Dr. Mercola is difficult to pin down because he's constantly "refining" (i.e. changing) his opinion. Here Dr. Mercola argues for "transmucosal" application of progesterone. He says transdermal results in high levels of 5-alpha reductase which converts progesterone into allopgregnanolone. I've done 3 mg Prog / 1 mg DHEA dissolved in Vit E this way. Anti-stress properties to me are clear. And I do think that means it is "anabolic." For me it is complementary with taurine.

https://media.mercola.com/ImageServer/Public/2024/June/PDF/off-label-drug-use-legalities-pdf.pdf

 

[Jim Marlowe]

this is true, in fact Progesterone can lower ACTH, which I would think Pro would more like reduce the stress response. However, Pro can also feed the pathways and increase cortisol.

Individual variations, and possibly the mechanism is dose dependent as well, with little Pro "helping" to produce cortisol, when more or allot more Pro reducing Cortisol. This what I have observed throughout the years

That is very helpful. Something to keep in mind because it is so easy to misconstrue "paradoxical" effects based on dose-response.

 

[Gianluca]

Dr. Mercola is difficult to pin down because he's constantly "refining" (i.e. changing) his opinion. Here Dr. Mercola argues for "transmucosal" application of progesterone. He says transdermal results in high levels of 5-alpha reductase which converts progesterone into allopgregnanolone. I've done 3 mg Prog / 1 mg DHEA dissolved in Vit E this way. Anti-stress properties to me are clear. And I do think that means it is "anabolic." For me it is complementary with taurine.

https://media.mercola.com/ImageServer/Public/2024/June/PDF/off-label-drug-use-legalities-pdf.pdf

Thanks for attaching this paper, good read.

The only thing I may not agree with Mercola is the dosing for males, 25/30mg in a delivery method that by pass the liver is wow. Probably 1-3mg daily for a men would be more physiological, unless Pro is used pharmacologically short term.

It took me some years to understand that we want to deliver any hormone as close as possible in a physiologic way. Taking Progesterone on the skin, scrotum, or by mouth when non dissolved in fat, it won’t accomplish this, and can cause funky side effect for people.

I came to the conclusion injectable was the preferred method, but if we 100% by pass the first pass of the liver, and have 48hr half life with progesterone dissolved in Vitamin E applied on the gums, I think this is a simpler way to raise levels than injection.

Funny how Ray Peat figured all this out already many years ago. He did mentioned injectable Progesterone, he didn’t like it because the Benzyl alcohol in it.

 

[Gianluca]

I've done 3 mg Prog / 1 mg DHEA dissolved in Vit E this way.

Did you take this in the am or before bed?

 

[Jim Marlowe]

Did you take this in the am or before bed?

Usually before bed. Sometimes late afternoon if I can sense higher "physiologic stress." Never in the morning. I might do it in the morning with some kind of acute illness, but I don't want to interfere with morning cortisol.

 

[Pnw0031]

it just doesn't feel right, it feels like years ago when my E2 was uncontrolled, minus the erection quality benefit, plus feeling wired and like I'm on something. Just the opposite of what Pro is suppose to do, and the opposite of Pro is Estrogen, which is excitatory.

I have switched to IM today same dose, I will see in a few days if anything changes.

I’ve felt this with progesterone cream when taking too high of dose. That wired feeling becomes uncomfortable in a short amount of time

 

[Gianluca]

@Jim Marlowe have you ever checked Progesterone levels while on the 3mg applied to the gums?

 

[Jim Marlowe]

@Jim Marlowe have you ever checked Progesterone levels while on the 3mg applied to the gums?

No I have not. I only started that when Mercola mentioned it recently. And I've only used a "kernal" sized dose up to twice a day--the 3 mg Prog / 1 mg DHEA.

 

[Gianluca]

No I have not. I only started that when Mercola mentioned it recently. And I've only used a "kernal" sized dose up to twice a day--the 3 mg Prog / 1 mg DHEA.

currently comparing these two products:

Simply Progesterone 1.08 oz

A cleaner alternative to Pregest E

healthnatura.com

Molecular Progesterone Complex

Get relief quick with our fastest, most absorbable, bio-identical progesterone supplement. Thyroid issues, insomnia, joint pain, stress & anxiety, hot flashes, more? No Problem!

shop.forefronthealth.com

 

[Gianluca]

@Jim Marlowe how do you apply your drop of Progesterone on the gums? do you use just a finger and massage it in?

 

[Jim Marlowe]

Yes. Clean hands. One drop the size of a kernel of corn to the index finger and massage into gums. I think the pad of the finger is calloused enough that it is going into the gum and not the finger!

 

[Jim Marlowe]

@Gianluca I just saw this from Danny Roddy on Substack re Progesterone. I don't think it is paywalled. Not sure how the link will appear here.

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substack.com

 

[Gianluca]

@Gianluca I just saw this from Danny Roddy on Substack re Progesterone. I don't think it is paywalled. Not sure how the link will appear here.

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substack.com

I saw this video before. If I had learned about Ray Peat earlier, I would have probably saved allot of time. But when years ago I was exposed to his work, I thought he was a lunatic!