New Protocol, Elevated RHR/Poor Sleep/Eye Floaters. Abort or Stay the Course?

[Gman86]

Yeah. I'm just exhausted from not sleeping well. It's taking a huge toll on me right now. I may get some blood work for iron/ferritin to see if I look low there.

One other possibility is that my iron stores were low from the double red donation in October, and then being hypogonadal on the propionate didn't help my iron levels rebound from that double red, and then the rapid increase in levels on test/nandrolone drew down my iron stores further due to increased erythropoiesis. Plenty of my current symptoms match the low ferritin ones, and there are plenty of reports of people having adequate hemoglobin/hematocrit and low ferritin. I may try supplementing with some iron, vitamin c, and l-lysine to try to raise my ferritin levels.

Interesting. This could absolutely be a possibility. But again, would the deca really have increased demand in just a couple days?

 

[eyeheartny]

Interesting. This could absolutely be a possibility. But again, would the deca really have increased demand in just a couple days?

If you consider that I went from being low across the board to top of the range/above the range on TT/FT over a short period while still having low-end SHBG, yeah, my body experienced some pretty rapid swings. I'm also pretty sensitive in general, and if my ferritin levels/iron stores were on the low side to begin with, even a small change could've kicked me into a state where my body is under stress and didn't have enough to work with. I don't have blood work to validate (annoying that LabCorp's CBC doesn't include some of the iron values, I think the lab through my primary care physician includes those) but the symptoms certainly fit, especially since none of my core hormone levels seem out of whack.

I'm going back through my old labs and I don't think anyone has ever checked my iron or ferritin levels since I've been on TRT, so I don't have anything to compare it to.

 

[JimboTRT]

It’s currently grapeseed. I have been using pharma test with cottonseed for 8 years with no problem. I wonder if I’m the reverse of you. How did you narrow it down to the carrier oil?

Sorry for the late reply @eyeheartny. At the time, the only other variable that I added to the mix was Pharma Cyp with Cottonseed Oil which made it easier to pinpoint. Once I switched to grapeseed all the issues returned to normal. Hang in there, you're in good hands with Dr. Saya. Together you'll figure it out.

 

[Gman86]

If you consider that I went from being low across the board to top of the range/above the range on TT/FT over a short period while still having low-end SHBG, yeah, my body experienced some pretty rapid swings. I'm also pretty sensitive in general, and if my ferritin levels/iron stores were on the low side to begin with, even a small change could've kicked me into a state where my body is under stress and didn't have enough to work with. I don't have blood work to validate (annoying that LabCorp's CBC doesn't include some of the iron values, I think the lab through my primary care physician includes those) but the symptoms certainly fit, especially since none of my core hormone levels seem out of whack.

I'm going back through my old labs and I don't think anyone has ever checked my iron or ferritin levels since I've been on TRT, so I don't have anything to compare it to.

ya good point. I’m really hoping u start feeling better soon. I’ve experienced a few episodes on HRT where I felt worse than before starting, and it’s extremely discouraging. One thing I’ve learned throughout this process tho is, nothing’s permanent. As long as you are trying to constantly trouble shoot, and adjust things accordingly, these times are always temporary. Even when things feel like they’re getting worse and not better. Things always turn around. It’s still very tough going through times like these tho while on HRT

 

[fifty]

Keep us posted. The issues you are describing is exactly why I gave up.

Me too

 

[eyeheartny]

I had a consult at Defy today. A few interesting theories for what may be going on with me. First, nighttime RHR has been slowly normalizing. Sleep is still disastrously bad.

• Nandrolone can apparently decrease thyroid binding proteins, so the PA speculated that my levels of free thyroid hormones may have increased and that is causing some sleep disruption. I'm still waking up with an elevated heart rate a few times throughout the night. Based on half life calculators I've still got a few weeks before the nandrolone is out of my system.
• One of the PAs thoughts was that I was just taking way too much nandrolone for how sensitive I seem to be. Some of the symptoms I described to him sounded like what guys get when they take too much testosterone, so if I ever were to try nandrolone again (once I get the symptoms resolved and have 6 stable months) it would be at MUCH lower doses, maybe 1/4 of what I was on before.
• He also thinks that even though my sensitive E2 lab value was okay, that my Free E2 may be too high due to lower SHBG and causing issues for me with constipation, water retention, etc.
• He wasn't overly concerned about the elevated creatinine, especially since the rest of the electrolyte values looked OK. I linked him to a rat study that shows creatinine increasing along with nandrolone administration. We're going to watch that value over time.
• He's starting me on spironolactone to see if it can both help with water retention as well as raise SHBG a bit.
• If that fails, he wants to try me on 0.1mg of anastrozole to see if I get symptom relief.
• I'm continuing with the 140mg/week of testosterone cypionate divided into EOD shots, administered subQ.

Still no answers, still feeling shitty!

 

[Gman86]

I had a consult at Defy today. A few interesting theories for what may be going on with me. First, nighttime RHR has been slowly normalizing. Sleep is still disastrously bad.

• Nandrolone can apparently decrease thyroid binding proteins, so the PA speculated that my levels of free thyroid hormones may have increased and that is causing some sleep disruption. I'm still waking up with an elevated heart rate a few times throughout the night. Based on half life calculators I've still got a few weeks before the nandrolone is out of my system.
• One of the PAs thoughts was that I was just taking way too much nandrolone for how sensitive I seem to be. Some of the symptoms I described to him sounded like what guys get when they take too much testosterone, so if I ever were to try nandrolone again (once I get the symptoms resolved and have 6 stable months) it would be at MUCH lower doses, maybe 1/4 of what I was on before.
• He also thinks that even though my sensitive E2 lab value was okay, that my Free E2 may be too high due to lower SHBG and causing issues for me with constipation, water retention, etc.
• He wasn't overly concerned about the elevated creatinine, especially since the rest of the electrolyte values looked OK. I linked him to a rat study that shows creatinine increasing along with nandrolone administration. We're going to watch that value over time.
• He's starting me on spironolactone to see if it can both help with water retention as well as raise SHBG a bit.
• If that fails, he wants to try me on 0.1mg of anastrozole to see if I get symptom relief.
• I'm continuing with the 140mg/week of testosterone cypionate divided into EOD shots, administered subQ.

Still no answers, still feeling shitty!

Have you been doing subQ this whole time? Were you doing subQ before on your other protocols? You’re on enanthate correct? If so, it’s not advised to do subQ with enanthate. Only cypionate.

1/4 of your current dose of nandrolone would be 19mg/ week correct? Weren’t you doing only 75mg/ week currently? Would 19mg/ week even do anything?

 

[eyeheartny]

Have you been doing subQ this whole time? Were you doing subQ before on your other protocols? You’re on enanthate correct? If so, it’s not advised to do subQ with enanthate. Only cypionate.

1/4 of your current dose of nandrolone would be 19mg/ week correct? Weren’t you doing only 75mg/ week currently? Would 19mg/ week even do anything?

What is the concept behind enanthate not being suitable for subq administration? It's an esterified testosterone in oil. Defy RXed enanthate subq for me. Anyhow, I'm currently doing pharma cyp subq.

And yes, I've done subq about 80% of the time. If I do IM it's only shallow IM with an insulin syringe as those are the only syringes I inject with. I've done IM into biceps, delts, calves, etc.

 

[Gman86]

What is the concept behind enanthate not being suitable for subq administration? It's an esterified testosterone in oil. Defy RXed enanthate subq for me. Anyhow, I'm currently doing pharma cyp subq.

And yes, I've done subq about 80% of the time. If I do IM it's only shallow IM with an insulin syringe as those are the only syringes I inject with. I've done IM into biceps, delts, calves, etc.

I forget which video I watched where this guy talked about it. It might be this video, not 100% sure. But he basically said that he found that his patients blood work would come back much lower when using subq with enanthate. There’s something in it he explains that makes it not good for subQ injections. I forget what.

 

[madman]

Have you been doing subQ this whole time? Were you doing subQ before on your other protocols? You’re on enanthate correct? If so, it’s not advised to do subQ with enanthate. Only cypionate.

1/4 of your current dose of nandrolone would be 19mg/ week correct? Weren’t you doing only 75mg/ week currently? Would 19mg/ week even do anything?

Complete bullshit.

I have been on trt for 3 years.....strictly sub-q injected into abdominal fat and I and my TT/FT levels have always been above high/normal.

There is absolutely no difference in the absorption (other than esters release rate).....let alone effectiveness (attaining high TT/FT level).....whether one injects SUB-Q using the propionate, enanthate, cypionate, decanoate, or mixed esters of T.

In general most should be able to achieve healthy testosterone levels whether one injects sub-q or IM.....mind you there are some that tend not to do well when injecting sub-q stating they feel worse off and have difficulty attaining high TT/FT levels but it is not common and has absolutely nothing to do with the ENANTHATE ester being injected sub-q.

You need to think twice before posting up these youtube videos left and right.

Many men will and are doing well injecting testosterone enanthate strictly sub-q....achieving very good TT/FT levels let alone feeling great overall.....I being one of them.

 

[eyeheartny]

Complete bullshit.

I have been on trt for 3 years.....strictly sub-q injected into abdominal fat and I and my TT/FT levels have always been above high/normal.

There is absolutely no difference in the absorption (other than esters release rate).....let alone effectiveness (attaining high TT/FT level).....whether one injects SUB-Q using the propionate, enanthate, cypionate, decanoate, or mixed esters of T.

In general most should be able to achieve healthy testosterone levels whether one injects sub-q or IM.....mind you there are some that tend not to do well when injecting sub-q stating they feel worse off and have difficulty attaining high TT/FT levels but it is not common and has absolutely nothing to do with the ENANTHATE ester being injected sub-q.

You need to think twice before posting up these youtube videos left and right.

Many men will and are doing well injecting testosterone enanthate strictly sub-q....achieving very good TT/FT levels let alone feeling great overall.....I being one of them.

Yep. Agree that this is BS. I've been on for 8 years and have injected SubQ for 80+% of that time. Only thing that made a difference in my levels is how much I injected! My recent experience with test enanthate injected subq indicated it absorbs just fine, @Gman86

 

[Gman86]

Complete bullshit.

I have been on trt for 3 years.....strictly sub-q injected into abdominal fat and I and my TT/FT levels have always been above high/normal.

There is absolutely no difference in the absorption (other than esters release rate).....let alone effectiveness (attaining high TT/FT level).....whether one injects SUB-Q using the propionate, enanthate, cypionate, decanoate, or mixed esters of T.

In general most should be able to achieve healthy testosterone levels whether one injects sub-q or IM.....mind you there are some that tend not to do well when injecting sub-q stating they feel worse off and have difficulty attaining high TT/FT levels but it is not common and has absolutely nothing to do with the ENANTHATE ester being injected sub-q.

You need to think twice before posting up these youtube videos left and right.

Many men will and are doing well injecting testosterone enanthate strictly sub-q....achieving very good TT/FT levels let alone feeling great overall.....I being one of them.

You’re an idiot. Unless you’ve switched to enanthate, taken the same dose you’re on now, injecting SubQ, injecting at the same frequency, and then had labs done after 5-6 weeks to compare how your labs look vs your labs on your current cyp protocol, just keep your mouth shut on the matter. Your input in this thread isn’t needed, and neither is it on this forum. How the moderators haven’t booted you yet is beyond me.

 

[Gman86]

Yep. Agree that this is BS. I've been on for 8 years and have injected SubQ for 80+% of that time. Only thing that made a difference in my levels is how much I injected! My recent experience with test enanthate injected subq indicated it absorbs just fine, @Gman86

See, this I like. An anecdotal report backed up by labs. Appreciate you reporting this. I personally have no experience on this matter. Was just reporting what this doctor has found at his practice with his patients. So you’ve had labs done on the same exact protocol, just switching the variable of the esther? I don’t think the guy was saying that enanthate doesn’t work subQ. I think he was saying that on the same dose, enanthate labs come back considerably lower when injected subQ, than cyp.

 

[eyeheartny]

See, this I like. An anecdotal report backed up by labs. Appreciate you reporting this. I personally have no experience on this matter. Was just reporting what this doctor has found at his practice with his patients. So you’ve had labs done on the same exact protocol, just switching the variable of the esther? I don’t think the guy was saying that enanthate doesn’t work subQ. I think he was saying that on the same dose, enanthate labs come back considerably lower when injected subQ, than cyp.

My recent TT/FT labs that had me top of the range when I was experimenting with nandrolone and testosterone enanthate are the ones I'm referencing. I was injecting the enanthate subcutaneously EOD like I have always injected test cypionate. Since the LC/MS/MS test I had done for my TT does not show the nandrolone I had in my system at the time, I can say confidently that 30mg EOD of test enanthate injected subcutaneously was absorbed as well as test cypionate. My levels were even a little higher than I expected based on the dosing but were likely due to lower SHBG.

 

[Gman86]

My recent TT/FT labs that had me top of the range when I was experimenting with nandrolone and testosterone enanthate are the ones I'm referencing. I was injecting the enanthate subcutaneously EOD like I have always injected test cypionate. Since the LC/MS/MS test I had done for my TT does not show the nandrolone I had in my system at the time, I can say confidently that 30mg EOD of test enanthate injected subcutaneously was absorbed as well as test cypionate. My levels were even a little higher than I expected based on the dosing but were likely due to lower SHBG.

Awesome. Thanks for reporting all this. And thank you even more for being able to communicate like an adult, while reporting it.

 

[eyeheartny]

I’m using this thread as a log and also a way for folks to learn more if possible. I tried spironolactone yesterday after Defy prescribed it. The goal was to see if the water retention I have struggled with for years responded to a diuretic, even though the PA thought it is likely due to E2 and more specifically Free E2.

I had a symptom arise this afternoon that is making me stop taking it. I was driving to the gym and noticed an odd tingling/pins and needles sensation in my right hand and forearm. My workout was normal/uneventful but I decided to look this up as a side effect of the medication. Turns out that tingling in the extremeties can be a sign of hyperkalemia, and since this diuretic is potassium sparing it may have elevated my levels beyond where they need to be. I also forgot that white potatoes have a high amount of potassium and had some last night.

I’m going to discontinue the medication as I don’t want to mess with my heart rhythm. I don’t think I need to go to the emergency room but it is definitely a little unsettling. I have a symptoms call with defy tomorrow as the nurse had already left for the day. I just got off the spin bike at home (2nd workout of the day) and while I can definitely feel something is still off in my right arm/hand it seems a bit better than before. Weird weird weird.

In other news I got slightly better sleep last night. I tried some valerian root before bed and it seemed to help. Will repeat tonight.

Libido is back strong as can be, much better than on the nandrolone mix from before.

Now I just need to manage this constipation/bloating. I may go to daily shots at the same 140mg/week dose to see if that helps. Once I settle back in I will get labs drawn and will be looking carefully at Free E2. Based on calculators my free E2 is around 0.75 pg/mL or 0.3% of TT, which looks to be on the higher side from what I can see research wise.

 

[fifty]

I don’t understand why they prescribed you Spiro. Either way you’ll be fine it’s Spironolactone not cyanide.

 

[Gman86]

I’m using this thread as a log and also a way for folks to learn more if possible. I tried spironolactone yesterday after Defy prescribed it. The goal was to see if the water retention I have struggled with for years responded to a diuretic, even though the PA thought it is likely due to E2 and more specifically Free E2.

I had a symptom arise this afternoon that is making me stop taking it. I was driving to the gym and noticed an odd tingling/pins and needles sensation in my right hand and forearm. My workout was normal/uneventful but I decided to look this up as a side effect of the medication. Turns out that tingling in the extremeties can be a sign of hyperkalemia, and since this diuretic is potassium sparing it may have elevated my levels beyond where they need to be. I also forgot that white potatoes have a high amount of potassium and had some last night.

I’m going to discontinue the medication as I don’t want to mess with my heart rhythm. I don’t think I need to go to the emergency room but it is definitely a little unsettling. I have a symptoms call with defy tomorrow as the nurse had already left for the day. I just got off the spin bike at home (2nd workout of the day) and while I can definitely feel something is still off in my right arm/hand it seems a bit better than before. Weird weird weird.

In other news I got slightly better sleep last night. I tried some valerian root before bed and it seemed to help. Will repeat tonight.

Libido is back strong as can be, much better than on the nandrolone mix from before.

Now I just need to manage this constipation/bloating. I may go to daily shots at the same 140mg/week dose to see if that helps. Once I settle back in I will get labs drawn and will be looking carefully at Free E2. Based on calculators my free E2 is around 0.75 pg/mL or 0.3% of TT, which looks to be on the higher side from what I can see research wise.

That’s awesome that your libido is returning. So your sleep is still horrible, and you still have the constipation/ bloating?

Didn’t know Defy had a symptoms check consultation option. How much does that cost?

 

[eyeheartny]

I don’t understand why they prescribed you Spiro. Either way you’ll be fine it’s Spironolactone not cyanide.

I’ve had water retention and bloating for years. The PA suggested it could be related to excess aldosterone causing me to hold water. Since I had an unsuccessful trial with nandrolone and nandrolone has a 77% greater binding affinity for the mineralocorticoid receptor than testosterone, it was a reasonable option to try a diuretic to see if that helped with any of my symptoms of elevated heart rate and water retention. Was it the diuretic itself or the choice of spironolactone you were questioning? Curious what your thoughts are.

Hyperkalemia (Secondary to the spironolactone dose) is worrisome as it can affect heart rate and rhythm. That’s why I’m concerned. The tingling is not getting worse or spreading so it’ll probably sort itself out in the next few days, but it’s still weird.

 

[eyeheartny]

That’s awesome that your libido is returning. So your sleep is still horrible, and you still have the constipation/ bloating?

Didn’t know Defy had a symptoms check consultation option. How much does that cost?

Last night I got 25 mins of deep sleep according to my Oura ring, up from 4 mins the night before. For the weeks prior starting from 2 days in to my nandrolone trial I was getting 0 minutes of deep sleep. Prior to messing around with my protocol I was getting between 40-65 minutes of deep sleep consistently. During the trial of propionate my deep sleep was averaging around 1 hour to 85 minutes. My best night of sleep in the last 3 months was in early December when I was transitioning back to test cypionate and doing daily injections. I may go to dailies if my sleep, SHBG, E2, and free E2 don’t improve. I’m hoping to avoid an AI but if I have to take one at a very modest dose I will. I want to see how my SHBG settles after I’m back on 40mg EOD for a month or so before deciding to go to daily shots. Defy suggested that if I don’t get improvements in water retention and constipation by next week to try 0.1mg of anastrozole every 3.5 days. I still haven’t made up my mind whether I want to try that or not. I have Empower-compounded 0.1mg anastrozole on hand so I can easily try it.