New Protocol, Elevated RHR/Poor Sleep/Eye Floaters. Abort or Stay the Course?

[eyeheartny]

Glad you got through it!

I'm in the thick of it, but thanks.

DMed you.

 

[DS3]

It’s crazy that there was such a drastic difference for you going from ED prop to EOD. Was the weekly dose the same when injecting daily with the prop?

The weekly dose was about the same with ED prop as I'm doing with EOD. 280 and 262 respectively (40 mg prop ED vs. 75 mg EOD).

 

[JimboTRT]

Sorry if I missed it, but what is the carrier oil for the Test you're using now? Cottonseed oil increased my BP and HR significantly. Once I switched to Empower's compounded grape-seed oil everything went back to normal. I'm with Defy as well and considering adding Nanodrone.

 

[eyeheartny]

Sorry if I missed it, but what is the carrier oil for the Test you're using now? Cottonseed oil increased my BP and HR significantly. Once I switched to Empower's compounded grape-seed oil everything went back to normal. I'm with Defy as well and considering adding Nanodrone.

It’s currently grapeseed. I have been using pharma test with cottonseed for 8 years with no problem. I wonder if I’m the reverse of you. How did you narrow it down to the carrier oil?

 

[eyeheartny]

As an update, I'm feeling increasingly concerned about my body's reaction to something in this protocol. I don't know if it's the carrier oil or the ester or the nandrolone, but my sleep quality has continued to decline, my resting heart rate has increased, my heart rate variability has decreased, and my overall recovery/physical status is worse than it's been in months. I know I'm supposed to wait six weeks but I can't take another month of this kind of sleep disruption. The only decent thing is my libido. All the signs are pointing to something really not working for my body and I am not at all sure what to do.

I'd be grateful for anyone's thoughts on what I should do. This is decidedly not fun and I don't even know how to begin narrowing down what variables to change.

 

[Gman86]

As an update, I'm feeling increasingly concerned about my body's reaction to something in this protocol. I don't know if it's the carrier oil or the ester or the nandrolone, but my sleep quality has continued to decline, my resting heart rate has increased, my heart rate variability has decreased, and my overall recovery/physical status is worse than it's been in months. I know I'm supposed to wait six weeks but I can't take another month of this kind of sleep disruption. The only decent thing is my libido. All the signs are pointing to something really not working for my body and I am not at all sure what to do.

I'd be grateful for anyone's thoughts on what I should do. This is decidedly not fun and I don't even know how to begin narrowing down what variables to change.

Did you stop the nandrolone?

If not, I would stop the nandrolone and bump your test back up to 140mg. You’re currently doing 105mg of test and 75mg of nandrolone per week correct?

 

[eyeheartny]

Did you stop the nandrolone?

If not, I would stop the nandrolone and bump your test back up to 140mg. You’re currently doing 105mg of test and 75mg of nandrolone per week correct?

I have still been using the nandrolone at 84mg/week and bumped test a bit. I have a "symptoms" call with Defy in 15 mins to see what the RN thinks. I wanted to try riding it out for 6 weeks based on the feedback from @Vince Carter, @xqfq, @DS3 and others and see if I settled in but I don't know that that seems like a good idea at this point. It's a week later and things are worse, not better, while my cold is slowly improving. I'm not sure whether it's the nandrolone or the carrier oil potentially, since some folks have reported issues with either cottonseed or grapeseed oil.

 

[Gman86]

I have still been using the nandrolone. I have a "symptoms" call with Defy in 15 mins to see what the RN thinks. I wanted to try riding it out for 6 weeks based on the feedback from @Vince Carter, @xqfq, @DS3 and others and see if I settled in but I don't know that that seems like a good idea at this point. It's a week later and things are worse, not better, while my cold is slowly improving. I'm not sure whether it's the nandrolone or the carrier oil potentially, since some folks have reported issues with either cottonseed or grapeseed oil.

Let us know what they say. Like I said, extremely curious to see how things work out for you as I’ll be in your exact position soon.

 

[eyeheartny]

Let us know what they say. Like I said, extremely curious to see how things work out for you as I’ll be in your exact position soon.

I will. The problem is I changed too many variables at once so I don't know what is responsible for these issues. I also think the carrier oil could be an issue. Feeling really down and out about this stuff.

 

[eyeheartny]

Just spoke with the RN at Defy. Her hypothesis is that my hematocrit and hemoglobin might have gone too high, which is causing the eye floaters, elevated HR, etc. She thinks my cortisol might be high as well either as a side effect of disrupted sleep or as a result of some other issue I'm having.

I'm getting blood work done this afternoon so I will have some more data to see what's going on.

Still not clear what to do in terms of changes/next steps.

 

[DS3]

Just spoke with the RN at Defy. Her hypothesis is that my hematocrit and hemoglobin might have gone too high, which is causing the eye floaters, elevated HR, etc. She thinks my cortisol might be high as well either as a side effect of disrupted sleep or as a result of some other issue I'm having.

I'm getting blood work done this afternoon so I will have some more data to see what's going on.

Still not clear what to do in terms of changes/next steps.

Be patient. Get the bloodwork done first and take a deep breath. If I were in your position and I felt I absolutely had to drop something today or I just couldn't take it anymore, I would drop nandrolone no doubt.

 

[eyeheartny]

Be patient. Get the bloodwork done first and take a deep breath. If I were in your position and I felt I absolutely had to drop something today or I just couldn't take it anymore, I would drop nandrolone no doubt.

Thanks. I appreciate it. I'll be very curious what the lab work shows. I've been looking into the effects of high cortisol and it sounds like everything I've been experiencing since I went on nandrolone -- frequent urination, digestive trouble (constipation/bloating), disrupted sleep, BP/HR changes, etc. The list seems dead-on for how I've been feeling.

Based on the relative binding affinities of testosterone and nandrolone at the mineralocorticoid receptor (77% greater for nandrolone vs testosterone), I wonder if that is the explanation for what I've been experiencing. In other words, something about my unique physiology means that nandrolone's binding affinity at the MR has lead to an increase in cortisol, which has led to the symptoms I've been experiencing.

I did just find this study in rats that indicated that nandrolone increased the activity of some of these systems. The key sentence that jumped out at me was:

The chronic nandrolone treatment impairs the exercise-induced cardioprotection against ischaemia/reperfusion injury by activating the cardiac renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system and downregulating KATP channel expression.

This is obviously concerning. Granted, the dosages used in this study were higher even when scaled for a HED. But that said the fact that nandrolone activated the RAAS may explain a bit of what I'm experiencing in terms of water retention, heart rate, etc.

Here's the chart for the binding affinities:

 

[DS3]

Thanks. I appreciate it. I'll be very curious what the lab work shows. I've been looking into the effects of high cortisol and it sounds like everything I've been experiencing since I went on nandrolone -- frequent urination, digestive trouble (constipation/bloating), disrupted sleep, BP/HR changes, etc. The list seems dead-on for how I've been feeling.

Based on the relative binding affinities of testosterone and nandrolone at the mineralocorticoid receptor (77% greater for nandrolone vs testosterone), I wonder if that is the explanation for what I've been experiencing. In other words, something about my unique physiology means that nandrolone's binding affinity at the MR has lead to an increase in cortisol, which has led to the symptoms I've been experiencing.

I did just find this study in rats that indicated that nandrolone increased the activity of some of these systems. The key sentence that jumped out at me was:


This is obviously concerning. Granted, the dosages used in this study were higher even when scaled for a HED. But that said the fact that nandrolone activated the RAAS may explain a bit of what I'm experiencing in terms of water retention, heart rate, etc.

Definitely could be. These hormones can have widely varying effect on people both mentally and physically.

 

[Gman86]

I tend to have low levels of cortisol, so hopefully nandrolone does in deed raise cortisol. Very curious to see how your blood work turns out

 

[eyeheartny]

I tend to have low levels of cortisol, so hopefully nandrolone does in deed raise cortisol. Very curious to see how your blood work turns out

Keep in mind that it may not raise cortisol in you. Everyone is different and the fact that I may have increased activity at the mineralocorticoid receptor from nandrolone may not show up that way in you. Same reason I have had water retention on moderate doses of testosterone and other guys don't report the same issue. It may just be something about my body that's different than yours/others, and so my experience with nandrolone may not at all be what yours is.

 

[fifty]

I would drop the nandrolone. I understand the whole “wait 6 weeks” thing which is usually good advice...however I don’t believe it’s good advice when you’re feeling terrible.

 

[fifty]

If you drop that and still no positive change then as a next step switch back to pharma test. My 2 cents.

 

[eyeheartny]

If you drop that and still no positive change then as a next step switch back to pharma test. My 2 cents.

I think I’m going back to pharma test anyway. I get my insurance to cover it so I may as well only pay $10 for a 10ml vial if I can.

 

[eyeheartny]

I would drop the nandrolone. I understand the whole “wait 6 weeks” thing which is usually good advice...however I don’t believe it’s good advice when you’re feeling terrible.

I agree. There’s a difference between “I’m adjusting” and “there are subjective and objective measures of well being and mine are all trending downward the longer I’m on this protocol.” I don’t know if a smaller amount of nandrolone would work but I first want to get back to a baseline of feeling decent and sleeping as well as I was before.

 

[Vince Carter]

@eyeheartny

I think you shoudl try to find a spot where you can relax and wait on those labs to come in. Otherwise you're just stabbing the dark. Sleep disruption is huge for me, too. Don't overlook that most of the guys on this forum have a generalized anxiety type disorder that they suffer with, whether it's diagnosed, or even acknowledged by them. They feel this and feel that and immediately try to blow it up. Don't discount the power of the mind.