How is it possible? 50, 60-80mg a week

[alchemist004]

I have only been on injections of cypionate and hcg for 5 months, but this my second year of TRT and until this point, it's all been a guessing game. I am still trying to dial my protocol, but the best advice I have been given to date is not to be a slave to the numbers.

To the OP's point I will say that there are indeed some men, like myself, who feel better with low doses. Prior to TRT my TT was low 200's. I have only been on injections for 5 months but I started at 100mg Cyp and 1000iu of hCG weekly and my TT was almost 1300. My last set of labs have me at 1100+TT (I'm still trying to bring that number down) on 70mg of Cyp and 700iu hCG weekly so it is absolutely possible as Vince mentioned.

I know that for me, I have felt better as my doses get lower (I still think I have room to lower that hCG). Come to think of it, I believe I read that healthy men make something like 7-10mg of T daily. Something else to reinforce the less is more ideology.

 

[ERO]

that is not correct! T goes up when E2 goes down

Show even one study that proves that.

 

[eli]

Show even one study that proves that.

http://www.seasonswellness.com/itsnotjustawomanthing/

 

[Gene Devine]

Show even one study that proves that.

There are a ton of studies and clinical papers that prove that when aromatase synthesis is slowed the conversion of Testosterone into estrogen slows and as a result both Total and Free Testosterone serum levels increase...that's just about common knowledge in the TRT world today.

Aromatase inhibitors in men: effects and therapeutic options
Here's a great read by the way but read the conclusion: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3143915/

 

[ERO]

http://www.seasonswellness.com/itsnotjustawomanthing/

Great article, but in his example he is talking about guys that are not on TRT, "High estrogen = low testosterone. One of the primary causes of low testosterone is a high estrogen level. Estrogens can be endogenous (produced by your body) or exogenous (from the environment, also known as xenoestrogens). Estradiol and Estrone (two of the three kinds of estrogen produced by your body) feed back to the hypothalamus and pituitary and shut off testosterone production."

Guys on TRT are not getting their T from their HTPA axis anymore, so to be technically correct, one could say that lowering E2 in natural men raises T production and T levels, but not for guys on TRT.

 

[eli]

Great article, but in his example he is talking about guys that are not on TRT, "High estrogen = low testosterone. One of the primary causes of low testosterone is a high estrogen level. Estrogens can be endogenous (produced by your body) or exogenous (from the environment, also known as xenoestrogens). Estradiol and Estrone (two of the three kinds of estrogen produced by your body) feed back to the hypothalamus and pituitary and shut off testosterone production."

Guys on TRT are not getting their T from their HTPA axis anymore, so to be technically correct, one could say that lowering E2 in natural men raises T production and T levels, but not for guys on TRT.

not true man ! please read Gene Devine's comment.

High E2 blocks T from doing it's job, making T useless

 

[ERO]

not true man ! please read Gene Devine's comment.

High E2 blocks T from doing it's job, making T useless

Yes, that is 100% true - but that is not the same thing as what you said earlier, that lowering E2 raises T (for guys on TRT)

 

[eli]

Yes, that is 100% true - but that is not the same thing as what you said earlier, that lowering E2 raises T (for guys on TRT)

Lowering E2 means less aromtaization = more T becomes available.


Did you read this ?

"There are a ton of studies and clinical papers that prove that when aromatase synthesis is slowed the conversion of Testosterone into estrogen slows and as a result both Total and Free Testosterone serum levels increase...that's just about common knowledge in the TRT world today.

Aromatase inhibitors in men: effects and therapeutic options

Here's a great read by the way but read the conclusion:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3143915/" Gene Devine

 

[ERO]

Lowering E2 means less aromtaization = more T becomes available.


Did you read this ?

"There are a ton of studies and clinical papers that prove that when aromatase synthesis is slowed the conversion of Testosterone into estrogen slows and as a result both Total and Free Testosterone serum levels increase...that's just about common knowledge in the TRT world today.

Aromatase inhibitors in men: effects and therapeutic options

Here's a great read by the way but read the conclusion:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3143915/" Gene Devine

Yes, and once again, the article is talking about guys that are NOT on TRT. "Although aromatase inhibitors increase FSH levels, there is no consistent evidence for a beneficial effect on spermatogenesis." If you are in TRT, your FSH levels are suppressed.

The confusion here is two-fold:

1) Both studies that have been cited are talking about guys that are not on TRT, with normal HPTA axis function. Since this is a TRT forum, my normal assumption is that if you are here you are either on, or are considering going on TRT.

2) There is a difference between raising Free T % and raising Total T. My statement was that, for guys on TRT, lowering E2 is not going to raise their Total T. Yes, it changes the T/E2 ratio and may raise Free T, but not the Total T#.

But more important than arguing over semantics is that everybody is different and typically everybody has a bit of a different "sweet spot" for their Total T, Free T and E2 levels.