Difference between daily IM vs daily SubQ?

[GreenMachineX]

Some men see substantially lower total and free testosterone with subq and higher E2, while some men do not. The percentage affected negatively is not clear. The only study to capture this effect was one of the Xyosted studies comparing xyosted to enanthate IM - other studies have not replicated it or even shown lower E2 with subq injection. Doesn't change our observed reality.

Some men feel much better injecting IM, which sometimes correlates with differences in hormone levels like I mentioned above. However, sometimes the numbers are similar on paper, and yet the person still somehow feels better with IM. You might be in that category and will find out when you get your lab results.

The pharmacokinetics should be somewhat (like maybe 20-30%) different between IM and subq, with a lower peak, higher trough, and longer half-life with subq.

I’m one of those in the first example. SC is notably worse than shallow IM for my daily protocol. My free T was actually it in half by using SC and I could tell by every sleepless night something was wrong. My E2 was normal though, so I couldn’t tell what was wrong exactly until I had the blood results. I’ve never had such low-normal free test with perfect e2 before.

 

[mrblonde01]

I think the type of ester plays an important role here as well, right? I do daily IM propionate injections now, and this - I feel - seems to come closest to a natural ebb and flow of testosterone. If you have a long ester that will remain in your system for a long time anyway, like cypionate or enanthate, the difference between im and subq becomes less apparent then with propionate. This is just my amateuristic theory, emerging from what little I know about our bodies and these substances.

 

[SH3P]

Update: I actually did some follow up blood work after about 8-10 weeks after switching back to IM. I'll try to create a post outlining the results later today.

 

[Nearly50]

Been on for about 10 months and have tried multiple frequencies, administration sites, and dosages.

All of these trials were based on the need to control elevated H&H. The one that did the trick in mitigating it was daily subcutaneous injections totaling 70mg/week. Labs for this protocol were done about 12 weeks after switching.

Levels sit at 830 ng/dL total, and above the ref range with free. All other relevant markers are great. The issue was that over the last few months, I've been feeling more and more "off." Libido has been down, I've been somewhat lethargic, and I've experienced some weird emotional blunting.

Tried switching back to IM, but this time with daily injections about a week ago and have noticed a substantial change and resolution to the issues mentioned above.

So my question is, when you're on a daily injection protocol, is there that much difference between IM and SubQ? Mostly wondering about peaks, valleys, and overall stability in serum concentration levels. I plan on doing bloods in 8 weeks to see if it shows anything (CBC, TT, FT, E2, etc). Ultrasensitive and LC/MS, of course. On that note, is 8 weeks a little overkill for protocol swap from SubQ to IM? I know it's important for the reverse.

Stabilizing my protocol was a PIA because I believed they were equal (IM vs SubQ). They are not in all people and I am one of them. I had a very short honeymoon on SubQ and found it difficult to really feel right over about 6-9 months. Finally I went shallow IM and found that each small change in dose and freq made a subtle change. I’m now EoD shallow IM in the lower glute and delt and never felt better. Stable protocol for the last 12+ months. 51yrs old if it matters.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Update: I actually did some follow up blood work after about 8-10 weeks after switching back to IM. I'll try to create a post outlining the results later today.

Update?

 

[mr.craig.smith]

I tried using 5/16 for IM and the subjective results were not good. Did not compare well against 1/2".

On the larger issue of daily IM versus SQ, I certainly feel better with IM. However, I find it impractical to inject IM every day for years on end. I am low dose like yourself.

I have tried mixing IM with SQ, but my body did not seem to like the different absorption rates. And yes, after hundreds and hundreds of injections, there is no doubt in my mind that IM hits faster than SQ resulting in higher peak but lower trough. I assume average TT is more or less the same, but I don't care. Just go by feel and keep experimenting!

@Willyt - hey sir! I hope you're doing well. Quick follow up on your protocol if you don't mind sharing? Did you start off on a higher ED dose before you lowered down to 10mg/day? Are you also taking HCG?

I'm going through the fun of trying to get things dialed in on a daily protocol; I feel close, but still not 100%. I started at 16mg day subQ and shallow IM + 500iu HCG every 3rd day, recently reduced the HCG to 150iu every day and tried to go strictly subQ given how often the daily requires injecting. Long story short, I don't feel nearly as good injecting subQ (mentally sad, anxious, depressed) compared to feeling pretty dialed in with IM, and this is after just 1 week of going strictly subQ.

I am trying to get my mind to wrap around the concept that "less is more", and am open to reducing doses of T and HCG further (my biggest reason for tinkering has been poor libido and EQ). However, I was trying not to change too many variables at once.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Willyt]

@Willyt - hey sir! I hope you're doing well. Quick follow up on your protocol if you don't mind sharing? Did you start off on a higher ED dose before you lowered down to 10mg/day? Are you also taking HCG?

I'm going through the fun of trying to get things dialed in on a daily protocol; I feel close, but still not 100%. I started at 16mg day subQ and shallow IM + 500iu HCG every 3rd day, recently reduced the HCG to 150iu every day and tried to go strictly subQ given how often the daily requires injecting. Long story short, I don't feel nearly as good injecting subQ (mentally sad, anxious, depressed) compared to feeling pretty dialed in with IM, and this is after just 1 week of going strictly subQ.

I am trying to get my mind to wrap around the concept that "less is more", and am open to reducing doses of T and HCG further (my biggest reason for tinkering has been poor libido and EQ). However, I was trying not to change too many variables at once.

Thanks in advance!

Some guys seem to do well on the higher ED doses, but I am definitely not one of them. From the many accounts I've read, even 10mg of TE/TC will put most guys at top of TT range. There is a very long thread on another forum by a bodybuilder talking about the potency of 10mg per day.

If you dropped from 16mg to 10mg daily, you are going to experience a down period while the body adjusts.

As you mentioned, gotta watch those variables - you've have a lot going on with several changes at once (T dose, HCG dose and frequency, switch to SQ, etc.). Maybe let things settle down with the T dose change and then try to tinker with the others.

 

[GreenMachineX]

@Willyt - hey sir! I hope you're doing well. Quick follow up on your protocol if you don't mind sharing? Did you start off on a higher ED dose before you lowered down to 10mg/day? Are you also taking HCG?

I'm going through the fun of trying to get things dialed in on a daily protocol; I feel close, but still not 100%. I started at 16mg day subQ and shallow IM + 500iu HCG every 3rd day, recently reduced the HCG to 150iu every day and tried to go strictly subQ given how often the daily requires injecting. Long story short, I don't feel nearly as good injecting subQ (mentally sad, anxious, depressed) compared to feeling pretty dialed in with IM, and this is after just 1 week of going strictly subQ.

I am trying to get my mind to wrap around the concept that "less is more", and am open to reducing doses of T and HCG further (my biggest reason for tinkering has been poor libido and EQ). However, I was trying not to change too many variables at once.

Thanks in advance!

I’m one of those that more isn’t better. 10mg IM daily had me just over the range, but 7mg subq daily had me getting close to the bottom of the range. 8mg daily IM seems to be best for me, although water retention is a bit high for my liking still.

I should also say the 10mg daily IM made my hematocrit 52-53 and hemoglobin >18 which isn’t sustainable (in my personal opinion).

 

[FunkOdyssey]

If you guys are already injecting daily, I think you might have better luck with propionate. I have a lower hematocrit with prop, fewer problems with E2, lower BP, better sleep. The result of all this is that I can comfortably tolerate much higher doses of prop.

With cypionate, I too was limited to ~10 mg daily. I've gone as high as 25 mg daily with prop for long stretches.

 

[mr.craig.smith]

If you guys are already injecting daily, I think you might have better luck with propionate. I have a lower hematocrit with prop, fewer problems with E2, lower BP, better sleep. The result of all this is that I can comfortably tolerate much higher doses of prop.

With cypionate, I too was limited to ~10 mg daily. I've gone as high as 25 mg daily with prop for long stretches.

I tried propionate last year and it gave me racing heart rate, higher BP, and I was crashing by the end of the day on 10mg. At some point I might give it another try, or a mixture of propionate + cypionate, but for now I'm not going to add that variable into the mix since I'd like to try and get the other things mostly dialed in as good as I can before introducing that as well.

Are you a lower or higher SHBG guy? I've read some threads that propionate can tank SHBG. According to Dr. Stevens, we don't necessarily want to do that. I tend to test in the 30's for SHBG - not sure if that is "good" or "bad".

 

[GreenMachineX]

If you guys are already injecting daily, I think you might have better luck with propionate. I have a lower hematocrit with prop, fewer problems with E2, lower BP, better sleep. The result of all this is that I can comfortably tolerate much higher doses of prop.

With cypionate, I too was limited to ~10 mg daily. I've gone as high as 25 mg daily with prop for long stretches.

What was your free T at 25mg daily? That’s getting into low dose cycle isn’t it?

 

[mr.craig.smith]

I’m one of those that more isn’t better. 10mg IM daily had me just over the range, but 7mg subq daily had me getting close to the bottom of the range. 8mg daily IM seems to be best for me, although water retention is a bit high for my liking still.

I should also say the 10mg daily IM made my hematocrit 52-53 and hemoglobin >18 which isn’t sustainable (in my personal opinion).

This is encouraging to read. I would very much like to eventually be on the lowest possible effective dose. I'll slowly make my way there after giving the HCG switch time to level out before making any more tweaks.

I know this isn't really related to the current thread, but just a weird anecdote. I donated a power red at the Red Cross on Saturday, and I've lost nearly 10lbs of scale weight in 48 hours (usually weigh 218-22lbs). I am lean (probably 10% bf or less) and don't have a lot of fat to lose, so it's weird to have such big swing in such a short amount of time. I realize that a good chunk of that could be glycogen and fluid loss, which should be replaced relatively quickly, but curious if I also "lost" a good chunk of operating hormones circulating in the bloodstream from the frequent injections which will require a bit of time to accumulate again.

Anyways, just a weird anecdote.

 

[GreenMachineX]

This is encouraging to read. I would very much like to eventually be on the lowest possible effective dose. I'll slowly make my way there after giving the HCG switch time to level out before making any more tweaks.

I know this isn't really related to the current thread, but just a weird anecdote. I donated a power red at the Red Cross on Saturday, and I've lost nearly 10lbs of scale weight in 48 hours (usually weigh 218-22lbs). I am lean (probably 10% bf or less) and don't have a lot of fat to lose, so it's weird to have such big swing in such a short amount of time. I realize that a good chunk of that could be glycogen and fluid loss, which should be replaced relatively quickly, but curious if I also "lost" a good chunk of operating hormones circulating in the bloodstream from the frequent injections which will require a bit of time to accumulate again.

Anyways, just a weird anecdote.

You weigh 218 at less than 10% BF???

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Are you a lower or higher SHBG guy? I've read some threads that propionate can tank SHBG. According to Dr. Stevens, we don't necessarily want to do that. I tend to test in the 30's for SHBG - not sure if that is "good" or "bad".

I was a higher SHBG guy and have become a normal SHBG guy. I was up around 55-60 pre-TRT, and this dropped to around 30 with TRT in the 140-175 mg weekly range. I haven't seen any significant difference between enanthate and prop with regard to SHBG.

What was your free T at 25mg daily? That’s getting into low dose cycle isn’t it?

It was about 38 ng/dL if I recall correctly. I hope you appreciate the peril you put me in by asking that question and me answering it. A lecture from madman is surely incoming.

I've been running 20-22 mg a day more recently and haven't tested yet but it should be a bit lower, maybe 32-34 ng/dL now.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I was a higher SHBG guy and have become a normal SHBG guy. I was up around 55-60 pre-TRT, and this dropped to around 30 with TRT in the 140-175 mg weekly range. I haven't seen any significant difference between enanthate and prop with regard to SHBG.


It was about 38 ng/dL if I recall correctly. I hope you appreciate the peril you put me in by asking that question and me answering it. A lecture from madman is surely incoming.

lol You’re right, sorry man…
(Brace for impact…)

 

[FunkOdyssey]

lol You’re right, sorry man…
(Brace for impact…)

I should also mention that this was not a trough test, but actually closer to a peak test, as I ran it five hours post injection.

 

[mr.craig.smith]

You weigh 218 at less than 10% BF???

Yes sir. I used to be a competitive bodybuilder. I've gone through a pretty significant transformation after I stopped competing 5 years ago and have lost more and more size through a combination of eating like a more normal human being (e.g. not slamming 250g of protein every day), and training much lighter with bodyweight/bands/light weight after a back surgery in 2023. I was 275lbs at my largest in the off season and 230lbs on stage.

I'm currently a shadow of my former "self" physically, but I like to think I'm growing in other arenas.