Hello, 57 year old about to start TRT and have questions

[Systemlord]

I had 100mg im shot on Monday @11.30 and have not felt anything different so far.

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved

Testosterone has a spectrum of effects on the male organism. This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects are ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Results​

Effects on sexual interest appear after 3 weeks plateauing at 6 weeks, with no further increments expected beyond. Changes in erections/ejaculations may require up to 6 months. Effects on quality of life manifest within 3–4 weeks, but maximum benefits take longer. Effects on depressive mood become detectable after 3–6 weeks with a maximum after 18–30 weeks. Effects on erythropoiesis are evident at 3 months, peaking at 9–12 months. Prostate-specific antigen and volume rise, marginally, plateauing at 12 months; further increase should be related to aging rather than therapy. Effects on lipids appear after 4 weeks, maximal after 6–12 months. Insulin sensitivity may improve within few days, but effects on glycemic control become evident only after 3–12 months. Changes in fat mass, lean body mass, and muscle strength occur within 12–16 weeks, stabilize at 6–12 months, but can marginally continue over years. Effects on inflammation occur within 3–12 weeks. Effects on bone are detectable already after 6 months while continuing at least for 3 years.

Conclusion​

The time-course of the spectrum of effects of testosterone shows considerable variation, probably related to pharmacodynamics of the testosterone preparation. Genomic and non-genomic effects, androgen receptor polymorphism and intracellular steroid metabolism further contribute to such diversity.

 

[Cali965]

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved

Testosterone has a spectrum of effects on the male organism. This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects are ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Thank you for links......I had read those and wasn't expecting anything like that this soon. I just thought I might feel the initial peak....extra energy or something.

 

[Systemlord]

Thank you for links......I had read those and wasn't expecting anything like that this soon. I just thought I might feel the initial peak....extra energy or something.

It all depend on the sensitivity at the androgen receptors. You may have injected 100 mg of testosterone, only a very small fraction of it is available to your tissues.

 

[Dan_The_Man]

So new to forum, been reading, medical background, and I started on daily microdosing, 10mg/day or 5u from insulin syringe and hcg 100iu daily both subq. 46yo/220lbs/6’7”.

I could be wrong, but it seemed to most natural-like way to dose it. Theoretically it doesnt matter when you inject t but i opt for early am, lil ocd.

Thank for you for all this info, in this one thread. My opinion is, as if it weren’t obvious, anything but daily dosing is suboptimal. And most ppl are overdosing.

 

[tareload]

10mg/day

Thanks for sharing. 10 mg/day of TC/TE?

Best wishes on your TRT journey.

I can see your point. Old dudes have less diurnal variation so roughly constant levels with ED injections definitely understandable choice if you are injecting TC/TE.

 

[tareload]

And most ppl are overdosing.

What are you talking about? Don't you know you will castrate yourself [joking].

Sadly this guy isn't joking...

What is TRT and What is NOT TRT

Try this: take 7mg a day. Once you have sufficiently chemically castrated yourself (which will occur quickly) you will quickly realize that you cannot compare endogenous and exogenous T. You’re also not factoring in androgen resistance which cannot be quantified using any unit of measurement...

forums.t-nation.com

What is TRT and What is NOT TRT

Huh? What part of my statement was ‘fallacious’ and where is my attempt at straw man of your efforts? What are you talking about? 70mg injection once a week will help MAYBE 1% of men out there. MAYBE. This is chemical castration for the vast majority out there. This isn’t a fallacious...

forums.t-nation.com

 

[Dan_The_Man]

Injecting tc or what i think you mean is test cyp. And im not joking. Starting off at 200mg/week as many clinics do.

Plus its about > clinical effect and < about a lab number/dose.

 

[Cali965]

My 1st dose was 100mg Cypionate on Monday and my Dr wants me to take 100mg weekly but I think I am going to switch to 50mg Monday am and 50 mg Thursday pm.
Have a couple of questions:

1. Can I switch from 1x 100mg week one to 2x 50mg weekly so soon?
2. At almost 58 do I need to inject more than twice a week?
3. I don't think my Dr will be able to tell how I am splitting up my dosage from my T Test in 7 weeks but want to confirm this?

 

[Dan_The_Man]

@Cali965 i feel like its about what works for you, both dosage and hz. For what its worth I believe that daily dosing would be best, just like your body would dose it.

It is not about cheating your doctor on a test, though the level may depend somewhat on the day you draw (how far post injection).

 

[Cali965]

@Cali965 i feel like its about what works for you, both dosage and hz. For what its worth I believe that daily dosing would be best, just like your body would dose it.

It is not about cheating your doctor on a test, though the level may depend somewhat on the day you draw (how far post injection).

Thanx for the reply.
Agreed it's not about cheating but if she realizes I am injecting daily or twice a week and subcutaneously vs her im instructions she may stop my TRT and she is great as my pcp so just wanted to know if she could tell from tests, again I don't see how but wanted to confirm.

 

[tareload]

For what its worth I believe that daily dosing would be best, just like your body would dose it.

Body does not dose test cyp with apparent elimination half life of 4 to 7 days IM route (a little longer subq).

Look up Natesto, troches, test cream to the labia or maybe rectum. 1 hr elimination half life.

Intraday peak/trough (pulsatility) very different with test cyp daily vs endogenous test production (or Natesto).

 

[tareload]

My 1st dose was 100mg Cypionate on Monday and my Dr wants me to take 100mg weekly but I think I am going to switch to 50mg Monday am and 50 mg Thursday pm.
Have a couple of questions:

1. Can I switch from 1x 100mg week one to 2x 50mg weekly so soon?
2. At almost 58 do I need to inject more than twice a week?
3. I don't think my Dr will be able to tell how I am splitting up my dosage from my T Test in 7 weeks but want to confirm this?

Yes.

No for now. Stick to protocol assess after blood work at 6 and 12 weeks and how you feel.

Correct.

 

[Cali965]

Yes.

No for now. Stick to protocol assess after blood work at 6 and 12 weeks and how you feel.

Correct.

1. Stick to 2 times weekly with IM or switch to subcutaneous, I know it's my choice but since it's only twice a week I don't see an issue with a 25g or 27g 1" into quads.
2. Next T test is lined up for 7 weeks as I read my body will stop producing T on it's own therefore the result will be more accurate for TRT........is 6 weeks good to go for a T Test?

 

[Dan_The_Man]

Body does not dose test cyp with apparent elimination half life of 4 to 7 days IM route (a little longer subq).

What say you is the half life, or would be half life of body’s own test? Good point.

Also why you end up needing smaller dose if dosed daily, theoretically and in practice somewhat. I only have two handful of data points.

My pers assumption is if body optimally produced 10mg every day of test that metabolised quick-lier than exog test then i could only need less of exog test daily, no?

 

[Systemlord]

My opinion is, as if it weren’t obvious, anything but daily dosing is suboptimal. And most ppl are overdosing.

I was able to get away with 49 mg weekly, injecting 7 mg daily and while this protocol produced the most potent response to therapy, the half-life was too long for a protocol such as this and gave me side effects I couldn’t tolerate.

I only made TRT work by choosing a half-life very short (Jatenzo @237 mg 2x daily) and frequent dosing is the only way I will respond to TRT. Twice weekly protocols was a no go, I had no response to therapy at all.

 

[Dan_The_Man]

I was able to get away with 49 mg weekly, injecting 7 mg daily and while this protocol produced the most potent response to therapy, the half-life was too long for a protocol such as this and gave me side effects I couldn’t tolerate.

I only made TRT work by choosing a half-life very short (Jatenzo @237 mg 2x daily) and frequent dosing is the only way I will respond to TRT. Twice weekly protocols was a no go, I had no response to therapy at all.

Interesting, did you start at 7mg or lower? Wonder if just lowering the dose to adjust for longer than optimal half life would work.

first i hear of Jatenzo, which is test undec but its half life is even longer? What gives, not following train of thought.

 

[Systemlord]

Interesting, did you start at 7mg or lower? Wonder if just lowering the dose to adjust for longer than optimal half life would work.

first i hear of Jatenzo, which is test undec but its half life is even longer? What gives, not following train of thought.

I couldn’t handle 8 mg and 6 was not enough.

first i hear of Jatenzo, which is test undec but its half life is even longer? What gives, not following train of thought.

The half-life of Jatenzo is 6 hours. My peaks are as high as 1052 ng/dL and trough (12 hours later) as low as 287 ng/dL.

Jatenzo is expensive!

My Experience On Jatenzo (Oral TRT) Log

I wanted to start a thread detailing my personal experience with Jatenzo (oral TRT) which is remarkable in how quickly it has shown results when compared with injections. The first week on Jatenzo was very pleasant unlike my experience after dosing changes on injections, all with minimal swings...

www.excelmale.com

 

[tareload]

What say you is the half life, or would be half life of body’s own test? Good point.

Also why you end up needing smaller dose if dosed daily, theoretically and in practice somewhat. I only have two handful of data points.

My pers assumption is if body optimally produced 10mg every day of test that metabolised quick-lier than exog test then i could only need less of exog test daily, no?

All great points you are bringing up that fall into three general sections:

1. Area Under Curve (AUC) for endogenous production vs TRT (exogeneous T administration) and mg/day T produced by body vs mg/day injected (AUC for both should be same over a week if the mean daily exo T admin or endo production are the same)
2. Here's where things getting confusing for dudes: AUC for XXX ng/dl peak TT/fT (natural guy) vs same ng/dl TT/fT for TRT guys (is it measured peak/trough?)
3. Effect of exogenous T administration on HPTA feedback (pulse frequency and amplitude) and what that means for the rest of your hormones besides T and E.

This thread does a decent job explaining key concepts for 1 and 2 (see these posts in particular):

'Natural' Levels vs TRT Levels?

Define “1000” (assuming you are referring to 1000 ng/dl) with TRT vs “1000” natural. As properly measured 1000 natural would be peak. 1000 on TRT could be (often is) trough. Is that trough with weekly injection, E3.5D injection, EOD injection, ED injection? The mean TT levels for those 4 TRT...

forums.t-nation.com

'Natural' Levels vs TRT Levels?

That’s exactly how people often get TRT. Some intentionally wreck their natural production a few days before measurement and then get a prescription because of that. Very valid point and indeed a reason why TRT potential is higher than natural potential. Absolutely correct point. We measure...

forums.t-nation.com

Item 3 is touched on here and see second thread for details:

Help/Advice Interpreting My Labs? Fertility After Blast/Cruise

Sure. Just for fun…these folks really exceeded expectations on their study: Although this study really belongs over in the TRT forum given the range on the dose response curve: In summary, pulsatile T is less effective as a negative-feedback signal on LH secretion than continuous T...

forums.t-nation.com

Chapter 12 - Hypothalamo-Pituitary Unit, Testis, and Male Accessory Organs

Read this chapter. Chapter 12 - Hypothalamo-Pituitary Unit, Testis, and Male Accessory Organs https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780323479127000123?via%3Dihub From https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780323479127/yen-and-jaffes-reproductive-endocrinology

www.excelmale.com

Pulse frequency and amplitude of the exogenous Test dose matter with respect to negative feedback to the HPTA.

Note: I have left T-Nation but spent so much time typing over there that I often link to stuff there (which is many times stolen from the geniuses over here @madman @Cataceous, etc). So I appreciate the Mods allowing me to post these links even though typically this would be frowned upon. There is so much information if you search the threads here!

Check out this embarrassment of riches by @Fortunate ...

Official Natesto Thread

Welcome to the Natesto thread. I have used Natesto on an off for several years, but it seems to be one of the less popular TRT options here. That said, I have seen a few readers mention it, and I thought it would be good to start a dedicated thread on Natesto where people can share their...

www.excelmale.com

 

[tareload]

1. Stick to 2 times weekly with IM or switch to subcutaneous, I know it's my choice but since it's only twice a week I don't see an issue with a 25g or 27g 1" into quads.
2. Next T test is lined up for 7 weeks as I read my body will stop producing T on it's own therefore the result will be more accurate for TRT........is 6 weeks good to go for a T Test?

Awesome. Since you are running the show you decide when to pull the blood work (peak or trough). I would pull trough so you don't run risk of freaking your Doc out. See my plots on the pharmacokinetics for more info.

 

[tareload]

24 Hour TT Profiles in Young, Healthy Functional Men [1973-1983]

TLDR (great suggestion by @kazuya_mishima1): Danny and the TOT folks are mistaken to put it politely with respect to pharmacokinetics and dose response of injectable exogeneous testosterone. They act like it’s some mystery how you will respond to injectable testosterone. It really isn’t and...

forums.t-nation.com

Pretty extensive survey of what a natural dude's production looks like over 24 hours from sample of literature data. Most exhaustive summary I have found.