HCG Plus Androgens Other Than Test

[DixieWrecked]

So I stumbled across this thought in my own head and it turns out it has been done before. I'm not sure why I never thought of it because it doesn't seem that crazy. I searched a few bodybuilding forums and it has been done with success and people tend to cite this article Primobolan Depot - Steroids Profile
A few paragraphs down, the Dread Pirate Roberts talks about using HCG as the test base in a primobolan cycle. I'm not condoning using anything you can't do legally but I wanted to know if anyone had any thoughts or experiences running something like this and whether it was worth trying a legal protocol that was set up like this.

 

[DS3]

So I stumbled across this thought in my own head and it turns out it has been done before. I'm not sure why I never thought of it because it doesn't seem that crazy. I searched a few bodybuilding forums and it has been done with success and people tend to cite this article Primobolan Depot - Steroids Profile
A few paragraphs down, the Dread Pirate Roberts talks about using HCG as the test base in a primobolan cycle. I'm not condoning using anything you can't do legally but I wanted to know if anyone had any thoughts or experiences running something like this and whether it was worth trying a legal protocol that was set up like this.

HCG alone with Primo won’t likely give you enough estrogenic activity leaving you with low estrogen symptoms. In the past when I’ve paired primo and test e at 200 mg per week each I had low E2 symptoms.

 

[DixieWrecked]

What about any other anabolics? Not just primo. Nandrolone. Anavar. Masteron. Etc.

 

[DS3]

What about any other anabolics? Not just primo. Nandrolone. Anavar. Masteron. Etc.

Any of your DHT-derivatives like Anavar, Masteron, Primo, Proviron, etc. would be likely to cause low estrogen symptoms with only HCG as a base. You can always try it and see how you feel.

Nandrolone, on the other hand, may be better suited for this experiment given that it would actually increase the estrogenic effects of HCG.

 

[bixt]

Nandrolone, on the other hand, may be better suited for this experiment given that it would actually increase the estrogenic effects of HCG

Sound to me like a fantastic recipe for a broken cock.

Deca? check
E2? check
Nil DHT? check

 

[DS3]

Sound to me like a fantastic recipe for a broken cock.

Deca? check
E2? check
Nil DHT? check

There are several anecdotes suggesting this may not play out as suspected in the real world. @Gman86?

 

[Gman86]

There are several anecdotes suggesting this may not play out as suspected in the real world. @Gman86?

What dose of primo were u using with the 200mg of test when u felt low E2 symptoms? For me, primo is also a very potent aromatase inhibitor, verified by labs

I tried HCG monotherapy for a about a year at the beginning of my HRT journey. Felt pretty good overall. Remember libido being super high. Only issue I had was that I couldn’t control the itchy/ sensitive nipples, even with an ai. I would scratch my nipples until they bleed. And ended up forming gyno in my left nipple. But caught it quickly and upped my ai and luckily it mostly went away. Think there’s still a little bit of it there tho unfortunately. Very tiny tho from what I can tell. But while using an ai my e2 was around 43-55. I’ve had E2 close to 90 on a test base, and never once had any nipple issues. So I’m assuming the nipple issues were due to either high prolactin, high prog or high DHEA-S levels. I didn’t have prolactin, prog or DHEA-S checked while on HCG mono, unfortunately, but I’ve used Pregnyl HCG while on a test base after that, and verified with labs that it would always increase my prog and DHEA-S levels quite a bit. Don’t remember Pregnyl ever increasing my prolactin a bunch. I just say that my nipple issues could have been due to prolactin while on HCG mono because usually high prolactin and itchy/ sensitive nipples tend to go hand in hand. Or maybe it was a combo of elevated prolactin, DHEA-S and prog, who knows. Just know it wasn’t due to E2.

For me personally, HCG mono using 2000 iu’s per week produced more than enough E2. Even while using 0.5mg of anastrozole per week my e2 was between 44-55. So I don’t think nandrolone would be a great option, due to it increasing the conversion rate of test into E2, and increasing prolactin receptor sensitivity I believe.

I can see using something that controls E2 while on HCG mono, like a DHT derivative, probably being a good idea for some guys. I think it definitely could have helped me avoid using an ai when I was on HCG mono, which I would have preferred. Would much rather control E2 with something like primo vs anastrozole or exemestane

 

[DixieWrecked]

Alot of people love nandrolone for libido with little to no test but I'm scared of nandrolone. Maybe it's in my head but as soon as it's in my body everything goes awry including my penis. I was thinking a DHT derivative would be more appropriate for this idea especially since HCG gives a pretty decent estrogen boost.

 

[Fortunate]

I believe I’ve asked this before, but can’t remember the answer. How much do we think hCG can push up your baseline level if you are using it along with testosterone? I am trying to simplify my protocol and recently stopped hCG. I am wondering if this will raise my test requirements and if so, by how much? I am certain that this is variable like everything else in TRT, but assuming leydig cells respond to hCG, how much can one expect to raise their T levels? Conversely, I wonder how much of a drop in T levels one might expect when hCG is removed in a similar environment of testosterone replacement?

@Cataceous, I think you help me with this question in an old post?

 

[Gman86]

I believe I’ve asked this before, but can’t remember the answer. How much do we think hCG can push up your baseline level if you are using it along with testosterone? I am trying to simplify my protocol and recently stopped hCG. I am wondering if this will raise my test requirements and if so, by how much? I am certain that this is variable like everything else in TRT, but assuming leydig cells respond to hCG, how much can one expect to raise their T levels? Conversely, I wonder how much of a drop in T levels one might expect when hCG is removed in a similar environment of testosterone replacement?

@Cataceous, I think you help me with this question in an old post?

It’s obv impossible to say, due to everyone responding differently to specific dosages of HCG, and it also depending on the brand of HCG ur using, and also depending on how long u’ve been using the same bottle of HCG after it’s been reconstituted.

But for me, I know 1000iu’s of Pregnyl HCG per week used to raise my total T by around 600 points. Backed up by a few different set of labs

 

[tareload]

I believe I’ve asked this before, but can’t remember the answer. How much do we think hCG can push up your baseline level if you are using it along with testosterone? I am trying to simplify my protocol and recently stopped hCG. I am wondering if this will raise my test requirements and if so, by how much? I am certain that this is variable like everything else in TRT, but assuming leydig cells respond to hCG, how much can one expect to raise their T levels? Conversely, I wonder how much of a drop in T levels one might expect when hCG is removed in a similar environment of testosterone replacement?

@Cataceous, I think you help me with this question in an old post?

Depends on whether you are primary or secondary before your started TRT and current status of the gonads after being on TRT. Did you continue to "flex" the gonads with hCG while on TRT or let them drift to dormancy?

EDIT: sorry, I inadvertantly ignored your constraint in bold above for the case of secondard hypo.

N=1 data since I tried hCG monotherapy before ever doing TRT and I was boderline secondary:

Baseline TT = 400 ng/dl.
TT after 250-400 IU 2-3 times per week = 800 ng/dl

There is also a fair dose response on TT with weekly dosage of hCG.

Hence, my experience similar to @Gman86

 

[Fortunate]

Depends on whether you are primary or secondary before your started TRT and current status of the gonads after being on TRT. Did you continue to "flex" the gonads with hCG while on TRT or let them drift to dormancy?

EDIT: sorry, I inadvertantly ignored your constrain in bold above for the case of secondard hypo.

N=1 data since I tried hCG monotherapy before ever doing TRT and I was boderline secondary:

Baseline TT = 400 ng/dl.
TT after 250-400 IU 2-3 times per week = 800 ng/dl

There is also a fair dose response on TT with weekly dosage of hCG.

Hence, my experience similar to @Gman86

I was pretty similar to you. When I started, I was low borderline secondary. Low LH/FSH. Very first testosterone measurement was 343. I also started on hCG monotherapy. After a while, I actually saw my levels drop. That’s when I started testosterone with hCG.

I have been flexing the testicles all these years. That said, for a few reasons, I am thinking about continuing TRT without hCG to see how I feel. I’m a big believer that minimizing variables can be beneficial and easier to troubleshoot.

Really, what I’m getting at, is how to estimate how much I should consider increasing testosterone if I drop hCG. All that said, I realize it’s impossible to determine, but I suspect my experience has been similar to yours and @Gman86’s - a fairly decent boost in levels from the hCG.

 

[tareload]

Really, what I’m getting at, is how to estimate how much I should consider increasing testosterone if I drop hCG.

Gotcha. If you know your T levels now (A) then pull the hCG and measure again in a month (B). Then subtract B from A. If you know your dose response then you can then estimate the additional T you need to inject to make up the difference (see for instance the dose response curves I put together.

Tool to Assess your TT Dose Response -- Percentile Curves

Summary: Tools to estimate your individual dose response for injectable testosterone ester in comparison to a normal distribution (95 percentile confidence estimate) of adult males (Ref). Plot below shows a summary of data from (1) clinical trials gathered from the literature + (2)...

forums.t-nation.com

For example I run in the top quartile on dose response (SHBG lumped into the dose response tool). But makes it easier to think about for most.

 

[DixieWrecked]

What dose of primo were u using with the 200mg of test when u felt low E2 symptoms? For me, primo is also a very potent aromatase inhibitor, verified by labs

I tried HCG monotherapy for a about a year at the beginning of my HRT journey. Felt pretty good overall. Remember libido being super high. Only issue I had was that I couldn’t control the itchy/ sensitive nipples, even with an ai. I would scratch my nipples until they bleed. And ended up forming gyno in my left nipple. But caught it quickly and upped my ai and luckily it mostly went away. Think there’s still a little bit of it there tho unfortunately. Very tiny tho from what I can tell. But while using an ai my e2 was around 43-55. I’ve had E2 close to 90 on a test base, and never once had any nipple issues. So I’m assuming the nipple issues were due to either high prolactin, high prog or high DHEA-S levels. I didn’t have prolactin, prog or DHEA-S checked while on HCG mono, unfortunately, but I’ve used Pregnyl HCG while on a test base after that, and verified with labs that it would always increase my prog and DHEA-S levels quite a bit. Don’t remember Pregnyl ever increasing my prolactin a bunch. I just say that my nipple issues could have been due to prolactin while on HCG mono because usually high prolactin and itchy/ sensitive nipples tend to go hand in hand. Or maybe it was a combo of elevated prolactin, DHEA-S and prog, who knows. Just know it wasn’t due to E2.

For me personally, HCG mono using 2000 iu’s per week produced more than enough E2. Even while using 0.5mg of anastrozole per week my e2 was between 44-55. So I don’t think nandrolone would be a great option, due to it increasing the conversion rate of test into E2, and increasing prolactin receptor sensitivity I believe.

I can see using something that controls E2 while on HCG mono, like a DHT derivative, probably being a good idea for some guys. I think it definitely could have helped me avoid using an ai when I was on HCG mono, which I would have preferred. Would much rather control E2 with something like primo vs anastrozole or exemestane

Those are decent estrogen levels. Where was your TT on 2000iu?

 

[JRos895]

@Gman86 how does TRT+HCG compare overall to HCG mono?

I am currently deciding if I want to make a switch to the former. I am feeling solid on the HCG mono but its such a hassle when traveling and I wonder if I can feel better. I have sperm banked so fertility is not so large of a concern to me.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Responding to the original post, I tried exactly what you're saying except with Nandrolone, however my T never came up past 250 which I assume was due to the suppressive effects of the N. I have considered something like this the next time I take a break from TRT, but I suspect going with something that is in and out of your body faster than Primo (such as oxandrolone) several times per week pre-workout would be less suppressive. Regarding, estrogen, the T which the HCG is provoking you to produce should hopefully provide enough estrogen.

 

[Fortunate]

In retrospect, I have done something along these lines. While it makes no physiologic sense to do this, I used hCG and Natesto together. It is conceivable that the hCG gave me a baseline of production and Natesto supplemented what I was making from the hCG.

I did this for a while and did reasonably well on it. That said, I’m currently not on this protocol.

 

[tareload]

something that is in and out of your body faster than Primo (such as oxandrolone) several times per week pre-workout would be less suppressive.

May want to consider accurate fT test if you try this to deconvolute SHBG effect from suppression/hCG effect. Decent dosing of oxandrolone may crush SHBG (and hence TT) then you would think hCG isn't working (when compared to baseline).

Goes back to TRT +/- oxandrolone. If you run fT by ED before and after adding the oxandrolone the fT should stay the same (assuming same trough measurement, etc). Hence oxandrolone decreasing SHBG doesn't free up more T, it just decreases bound T via dropped SHBG.


See all @Cataceous great posts on TT/fT/SHBG/fT elimination rate.

 

[Gman86]

Those are decent estrogen levels. Where was your TT on 2000iu?

Came back almost exactly at 1200 on two different blood tests months apart. Was using 2000iu’s/ week during both times. Pregnyl was very consistent with its effects when I was taking it back in the day

 

[DS3]

What dose of primo were u using with the 200mg of test when u felt low E2 symptoms? For me, primo is also a very potent aromatase inhibitor, verified by labs

1:1 ratio. 200 mg per week.