HCG Plus Androgens Other Than Test

[Gman86]

1:1 ratio. 200 mg per week.

Ya I’ve found that a 1:1 ratio leads to my E2 dropping too low as well. Again, real primo has been a very potent ai for me personally. Much stronger than I anticipated. Too bad it’s illegal to prescribe in the U.S. It would be amazing to have as a tool instead of guys with E2 issues having to us ai’s

 

[Gman86]

Responding to the original post, I tried exactly what you're saying except with Nandrolone, however my T never came up past 250 which I assume was due to the suppressive effects of the N. I have considered something like this the next time I take a break from TRT, but I suspect going with something that is in and out of your body faster than Primo (such as oxandrolone) several times per week pre-workout would be less suppressive. Regarding, estrogen, the T which the HCG is provoking you to produce should hopefully provide enough estrogen.

Idk if this makes sense. HCG should already be suppressing ur HPTA to the point that ur FSH and LH should be close to zero. Idk how having nandrolone in there could suppress u any further than u already are on HCG alone

Sounds to me like ur leydig cells are just not responding well enough from the HCG, in regards to testosterone production. I personally get zero additional testosterone production from empower’s HCG and would not be able to use their HCG if I were to ever try HCG mono again. What brand of HCG were u using?

 

[tareload]

Idk if this makes sense. HCG should already be suppressing ur HPTA to the point that ur FSH and LH should be close to zero. Idk how having nandrolone in there could suppress u any further than u already are on HCG alone

@Guided_by_Voices referring to 19-nor being potentially suppressive at the testicles not just the brain (as you mentioned endogenous LH would be suppressed via HCG).

 

[Fortunate]

Slightly off-topic, but can anyone tell me what’s going on with hCG? I keep reading that Pregnyl has been discontinued. However, as of a few weeks ago, I was able to pick it up at the same pharmacy I’ve been getting it for years. Has it really been discontinued? If so, I likely have some of the last batches made.

 

[DixieWrecked]

I'm not sure about Pregnyl but the HCG from all day chemist is legit. Ive had the Bayer Zydus brand and it the real deal. I've had Bayer, Pregnyl, and empower. Two of the three had a noticeable effect.

 

[tareload]

Slightly off-topic, but can anyone tell me what’s going on with hCG? I keep reading that Pregnyl has been discontinued. However, as of a few weeks ago, I was able to pick it up at the same pharmacy I’ve been getting it for years. Has it really been discontinued? If so, I likely have some of the last batches made.

If you are talking US and Rx u-hCG, Pregnyl and Fresenius are your two in stock options at Specialty Pharmacies.

For r-hCG you have Ovidrel which would be diluted into sterile vial with bacteriostatic water.


More info here down...

Is HCG enough to backfill pathways?

For me, it depends on the brand. Pregnyl raised my total testosterone level, my DHEA went from around 400, to around 800 (was not supplementing with DHEA or pregnenolone), testicles were a little bigger than pre-TRT, and loads were bigger than pre-TRT. On compounded HCG, it doesn’t do any of...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

May want to consider accurate fT test if you try this to deconvolute SHBG effect from suppression/hCG effect. Decent dosing of oxandrolone may crush SHBG (and hence TT) then you would think hCG isn't working (when compared to baseline).

Goes back to TRT +/- oxandrolone. If you run fT by ED before and after adding the oxandrolone the fT should stay the same (assuming same trough measurement, etc). Hence oxandrolone decreasing SHBG doesn't free up more T, it just decreases bound T via dropped SHBG.


See all @Cataceous great posts on TT/fT/SHBG/fT elimination rate.

Good thoughts, however my reasoning was that simply having nothing suppressive for most of the week would allow the HCG to instigate a reasonable amount of naturally produced T, while still having an anabolic boost for part of the week (about 36 hours or so). That is the idea anyway but it will be some time before I can test this out.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Idk if this makes sense. HCG should already be suppressing ur HPTA to the point that ur FSH and LH should be close to zero. Idk how having nandrolone in there could suppress u any further than u already are on HCG alone

Sounds to me like ur leydig cells are just not responding well enough from the HCG, in regards to testosterone production. I personally get zero additional testosterone production from empower’s HCG and would not be able to use their HCG if I were to ever try HCG mono again. What brand of HCG were u using?

I use empower's HCG. By "suppression", I meant that my understanding is that a sufficiently high dose of an exogenous anabolic could suppress the body's production of T in response to HCG stimulation, however I would be the first to point out that things could work differently in practice.

 

[Gman86]

@Guided_by_Voices referring to 19-nor being potentially suppressive at the testicles not just the brain (as you mentioned endogenous LH would be suppressed via HCG).

Is a compound being specifically more suppressive to testicles over other compounds a real thing? Genuinely curious. I’ve heard that deca can be very suppressive, but I’ve yet to find any reasoning for why it would be. So far all I can gather is that it’s a myth that’s been passed down based on the fact that deca has a very long half life, and will suppress ur HPTA longer than most other esters, even when u discontinue using it. But I’ve yet to see any info on how/ why nandrolone could be more suppressive to fertility than other compounds when using similar dosages. Only think I can think of, if ur is a real thing, is that it suppresses fertility more because it’s a progestin. We obv know that the oral form of birth control for women consists of synthetic progestin and synthetic estradiol. I know bioidentical prog is a fertility enhancer, in both males and females, but as far as I know synthetic progestins have the opposite effect. Do u think nandrolone being a progestin is why it potentially is more suppressive to fertility than other AAS? Genuinely curious and have always wanted to understand this concept/ theory more

 

[Gman86]

I use empower's HCG. By "suppression", I meant that my understanding is that a sufficiently high dose of an exogenous anabolic could suppress the body's production of T in response to HCG stimulation, however I would be the first to point out that things could work differently in practice.

That makes sense. Even tho 100mg of test should bring most men’s LH and FSH very close to zero, we basically know that using say 1000mg of test per week will decrease fertility more than 100mg will, even tho LH and fsh are basically already zero’d out just on the 100mg. So even tho LH and fsh are already as low as they can basically go using 100mg, 1000mg somehow suppresses fertility even further by some other mechanism. Does anyone know by which mechanism it does this by?


So what ur saying could potentially make sense. Maybe higher AAS dosing, or using something that’s supposedly “more suppressive” like nandrolone, can potentially effect HCG’s effects on the leydig cells in the testicles

 

[JRos895]

That makes sense. Even tho 100mg of test should bring most men’s LH and FSH very close to zero, we basically know that using say 1000mg of test per week will decrease fertility more than 100mg will, even tho LH and fsh are basically already zero’d out just on the 100mg. So even tho LH and fsh are already as low as they can basically go using 100mg, 1000mg somehow suppresses fertility even further by some other mechanism. Does anyone know by which mechanism it does this by?


So what ur saying could potentially make sense. Maybe higher AAS dosing, or using something that’s supposedly “more suppressive” like nandrolone, can potentially effect HCG’s effects on the leydig cells in the testicles

“Even tho 100mg of test should bring most men’s LH and FSH very close to zero, we basically know that using say 1000mg of test per week will decrease fertility more than 100mg will, even tho LH and fsh are basically already zero’d out just on the 100mg.”

I cannot comment on the deca aspect, but why is the above true? I could see how 1000mg could hurt fertility more even if LH and FSH were already zero as 1000mg would put stress on other organs and systems of the body that are important for fertility. But would 150mg be any really worse for fertility than 100mg assuming gonadatropins were totally suppressed on both?

 

[DixieWrecked]

Is a compound being specifically more suppressive to testicles over other compounds a real thing? Genuinely curious. I’ve heard that deca can be very suppressive, but I’ve yet to find any reasoning for why it would be. So far all I can gather is that it’s a myth that’s been passed down based on the fact that deca has a very long half life, and will suppress ur HPTA longer than most other esters, even when u discontinue using it. But I’ve yet to see any info on how/ why nandrolone could be more suppressive to fertility than other compounds when using similar dosages. Only think I can think of, if ur is a real thing, is that it suppresses fertility more because it’s a progestin. We obv know that the oral form of birth control for women consists of synthetic progestin and synthetic estradiol. I know bioidentical prog is a fertility enhancer, in both males and females, but as far as I know synthetic progestins have the opposite effect. Do u think nandrolone being a progestin is why it potentially is more suppressive to fertility than other AAS? Genuinely curious and have always wanted to understand this concept/ theory more

I don't know about nandrolone solo bc I never tried that long enough to give any good anecdotes but subjectively I feel much more shut down on nandrolone with test than I do on test alone. Nuts shrink and scrotum tightens. If I do just test, if my dose is low enough, I won't have much shrinkage at all. From what I can tell there are a few receptors that provide feedback to our HPTA, three of which are androgen, estrogen, and progesterone. If you throw that nandrolone in there along with test, you got all three of those receptors occupied.

 

[Gman86]

“Even tho 100mg of test should bring most men’s LH and FSH very close to zero, we basically know that using say 1000mg of test per week will decrease fertility more than 100mg will, even tho LH and fsh are basically already zero’d out just on the 100mg.”

I cannot comment on the deca aspect, but why is the above true? I could see how 1000mg could hurt fertility more even if LH and FSH were already zero as 1000mg would put stress on other organs and systems of the body that are important for fertility. But would 150mg be any really worse for fertility than 100mg assuming gonadatropins were totally suppressed on both?

Not sure, that’s basically what I’m asking/ wondering. We know that the higher u increase the AAS dose, the more ur fertility is going to impacted negatively, but jc why that’s the case

 

[Gman86]

I don't know about nandrolone solo bc I never tried that long enough to give any good anecdotes but subjectively I feel much more shut down on nandrolone with test than I do on test alone. Nuts shrink and scrotum tightens. If I do just test, if my dose is low enough, I won't have much shrinkage at all. From what I can tell there are a few receptors that provide feedback to our HPTA, three of which are androgen, estrogen, and progesterone. If you throw that nandrolone in there along with test, you got all three of those receptors occupied.

Do we know how progesterone effects the HPTA? I’m pretty sure synthetic progestins effect fertility negatively by attaching to progesterone receptors and preventing actual bio-identical prog from getting in there and carrying out the actions that prog is supposed to carry out. But I could be wrong about that. Jc how bio-identical prog effects the HPTA tho, good or bad

 

[Fortunate]

@Gman86 how does TRT+HCG compare overall to HCG mono?

I am currently deciding if I want to make a switch to the former. I am feeling solid on the HCG mono but its such a hassle when traveling and I wonder if I can feel better. I have sperm banked so fertility is not so large of a concern to me.

@JRos895, are you still on monotherapy? How is it going?

 

[JRos895]

@JRos895, are you still on monotherapy? How is it going?

I am not. I switched off the HCG mono to the T+HCG after I banked sperm. My estrogen was high on the HCG mono even with AIs (on 3000iu a week and 1mg of AZ a week.)

I think if I tinkered with the protocol more, I could have brought my E2 in range with a solid T level. The real kicker for getting off though was that I was just getting so tired of the hassles with the mono protocol. I figured the hassles would at least be mitigated If I switched to low dose HCG (ie: wouldn’t be a big deal if I missed a dose of HCG for example).

I also figured if I’d switch to T+HCG, I’d feel better, though I’m still struggling with the T+HCG protocol so I’m not totally confident in my decision yet that I got off the HCG mono.

 

[Gman86]

I am not. I switched off the HCG mono to the T+HCG after I banked sperm. My estrogen was high on the HCG mono even with AIs (on 3000iu a week and 1mg of AZ a week.)

I think if I tinkered with the protocol more, I could have brought my E2 in range with a solid T level. The real kicker for getting off though was that I was just getting so tired of the hassles with the mono protocol. I figured the hassles would at least be mitigated If I switched to low dose HCG (ie: wouldn’t be a big deal if I missed a dose of HCG for example).

I also figured if I’d switch to T+HCG, I’d feel better, though I’m still struggling with the T+HCG protocol so I’m not totally confident in my decision yet that I got off the HCG mono.

What’s ur current protocol? I also found HCG mono too difficult to dial in (lots of nipple itching/ sensitivity issues) and too inconvenient with HCG being so sensitive and subject to losing potency overtime

 

[JRos895]

80mg (40mg 2x) weekly 1000iu HCG (500iu 2x weekly) and .25 AZ (.125 2x weekly).

I think I’m going to drop the AI and separate the HCG into three shots weekly.

 

[Gman86]

80mg (40mg 2x) weekly 1000iu HCG (500iu 2x weekly) and .25 AZ (.125 2x weekly).

I think I’m going to drop the AI and separate the HCG into three shots weekly.

Ya I would definitely drop the ai. U always want to try to find a protocol that works well without one, and only use it as a last resort, imo. I think breaking up ur HCG injections is a great idea. I personally have always done EOD injections for all oils as well as HCG. Just alternate oil days and HCG days. Do u know that u do better on low dose test, or u just want to start low and titrate up if needed? Everyone’s obv different, but I would personally still feel like I have low T at that dose. But again, everyone is different in regards to what protocol they need to feel good

 

[JRos895]

Thanks @Gman86

Always appreciate your input.

Yeah my hope is that 350iu 3x a week produces a solid less E2 than 500 2x a week. I feel like it’s very hard to do 500 2x a week without an AI, but I never felt good taking the AI.

Regarding the T dose, I’d rather start low and potentially titrate up. I think that my E2 is the limiting factor for dose so I can avoid an AI. I’d stop once my E2 gets too high perhaps, but I’d imagine it would be at least 30 on 80mg T and 1000iu of HCG.

Also, I’m not sure Id really consider 80mg a low dose, especially with HCG. The 80mg yields on average 8mg a day and I’d imagine HCG yields something like 1-2 mg a day. This means I’m getting something like 9-10 mg a day of testosterone, which is solidly above the general average of 6-7mg a day for a healthy young male, though I think it’s still within one standard deviation.

@Cataceous would be curious to hear your thoughts here, but if we assume 6.5mg (im assuming that’s the average amount men make a day) of T yields a 14 in FT on labs (the average FT for healthy young males) then I’d guess that 9.5mg would yield a 20 in FT (9.5/6.5 multiplied by 14).