Gene's Nitric Oxide Stack

[skycop00]

Powder City has 40% horny goat weed in fellas. 2 strengths.

 

[DLK]

Gene, I've been through this entire thread and I'm in the process of ordering all the goodies for your stack, I love a great vein busting pump. However I do have a question, back at 10/26/13 you said you would never use the tri-amino again due to bad inject lumps, then on 6/3/15 you say you use 1ml nightly so why the change?

 

[Gene Devine]

Gene, I've been through this entire thread and I'm in the process of ordering all the goodies for your stack, I love a great vein busting pump. However I do have a question, back at 10/26/13 you said you would never use the tri-amino again due to bad inject lumps, then on 6/3/15 you say you use 1ml nightly so why the change?

There was to much PH in the formula that was sent to me. Defy had another batch made up I didn't get the same neg results. I like Triamino.

 

[bruin]

Gene,
do you any comment about Agmatine?
I recently came across this, a by product of Arginine, and is said " to go beyond Arginine in terms of benefits"
recommended dose is 500-1000mg daily, by SNS ( Serious Nutrition Solution )
Duane

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I used Agmatine and felt absolutely nothing.

 

[Vince Carter]

My experimentation with agmatine and my casual research showed that you use Agmatine, solo, as other amino acids with blunt the effect. So from what I think I know, it couldn't be added to a stack like this. LIke Nelson, when I used it, nothing, but that was with other Amino's and ingredients. Even when I used it solo I didn't like it as I have come to enjoy the caffeine rush and beta alanine in my preworkout drink which is also loaded with Amino's.

 

[Vince Carter]

Does any one have an offline source for Doxazosin, I don't believe I can get it via the mainstream as I have no medical need for it. Like mysecuretabs, or alldaychemist, etc etc (my system here at work blocks those sites so I can't search it)

 

[Gene Devine]

Does any one have an offline source for Doxazosin, I don't believe I can get it via the mainstream as I have no medical need for it. Like mysecuretabs, or alldaychemist, etc etc (my system here at work blocks those sites so I can't search it)

Vince, check you PM.

 

[midlifealpha]

Does any one have an offline source for Doxazosin, I don't believe I can get it via the mainstream as I have no medical need for it. Like mysecuretabs, or alldaychemist, etc etc (my system here at work blocks those sites so I can't search it)

I've always skipped this in the stack. I am taking lisonopril the one that is combined with a water pill I think? If my BP gets low enough my doc might be willing to try it but I'd need to tell him why?

Certainly given that I've been in treatment for varicose veins, I realize there is no way the Beta-Blocker caused them, but it's certainly true that they don't help the situation. I was well over 300 lbs. when I went on Beta-Blocker now at 235 with pretty good BP readings despite my energy drink addiction maybe I just ask if I can try the Alpha-Blocker instead.

Certainly relaxing the muscle around the prostate should fit in well with many of us are doing anyway. Though I am willing to explore alternative means if the doc doesn't want to prescribe.

 

[raygo]

Tri-Amino AND your stack?

Defy Medical has a Tri-Amino injectable made up of Tri-Amino -Citrulline+Arginine+Ornithine (100mg/100mg/100mg) 100mL. I inject 1 ml each night before bed along with 300 mcg of Sermorelin to increase endogenous Growth Hormone.

I have used 2 ml before a training session and holy shit the pump was sick!

Here's a link to Defy's injectable nutrients. The vial of the Tri-Amino is huge 100 ml and lasts 3 plus months with daily injections.

Just call and ask for Jasen Bruce if you are interested.

http://defymedical.com/services/21-nutrient-injection-kits

Gene, is this in addition to the stack? Do you swap out a dose for an injection? If not, what is the benefit of adding this? It seems like there would be diminishing returns at some point since the Tri-Amino has redundant components.

 

[duffer]

It's commonly recommended to supplement Arginine with Lysene to avoid adverse effects from Epstein Barr, Shingles, and Herpes viruses. Does the alternate pathway of Citrulline to Arginine mitigate this risk? Or would additional Lysene be beneficial? If so, in what amounts/proportions?

What about Ornithine with Arginine? ..with Citrulline?

Then there's this tidbit from the Bulk Supplements L-Citrulline page: "When taken along with Histidine and Beta Alanine, these three supplements can go on to create Carnosine, which further improves the effectiveness of production of Nitric Oxide."

Histidine + Beta Alanine? Worthwhile or are they just trying to sell more stuff?

 

[duffer]

Icariin sources

I did some research on other icariin sources:

There's a huge cost spread. The majority of these are from scouring amazon and vitaminshoppe.

brand	qty	mg(gross)	strength	mg(net)	price	ea(daily)	mg(daily)	days	daily cost	30days
Herbal Island powder 20% 32oz	32	28349.5	20%	5669.9	114.95	0.08	450	403.2	0.285	8.55
ebay, EPIMEDIUM HORNY GOAT WEED EXTRACT 50:1, ICARIIN 75%	100	500	75%	375	14.99	2.00	750	50.0	0.300	8.99
Herbal Island powder 20% 16oz	16	28349.5	20%	5669.9	80.95	0.08	450	201.6	0.402	12.05
S5 Horny Goat Weed	100	500	50%	250	20.49	2.00	500	50.0	0.410	12.29
Herbal Island powder 20% 8oz	8	28349.5	20%	5669.9	49.95	0.08	450	100.8	0.496	14.87
(3bag/lot)herbal viagra yin yang huo&Horny Goat Weed&Epimedium 50% Icariin extract 500mg*100 caps sex aphrodisiac for men	300	500	50%	250	88.98	1.80	450	166.7	0.534	16.02
Horny Goat Weed Extract Capsules (20% Icarin)	120	500	20%	100	14.95	4.50	450	26.7	0.561	16.82
Planetary Herbals Horny Goat Weed Full Spec 1000	60	1000	10%	100	11.99	4.50	450	13.3	0.899	26.98
Planetary Herbals Horny Goat Weed Full Spec 1000	90	1000	10%	100	18.99	4.50	450	20.0	0.950	28.49
Source Naturals Horny Goat Weed Extract	120	1000	10%	100	26.07	4.50	450	26.7	0.978	29.33
amazon Planetary Formulas 600mg	180	500	10%	50	20.92	9.00	450	20.0	1.046	31.38
Horny Goat Weed Extract Capsules (20% Icarin)	120	500	20%	100	27.95	4.50	450	26.7	1.048	31.44
Advance Physician Formulas Horny Goat Weed	60	500	20%	100	14.95	4.50	450	13.3	1.121	33.64
Source Naturals Horny Goat Weed 1000mg	60	1000	10%	100	18.99	4.50	450	13.3	1.424	42.73
physician formulas Horny Goat Weed	240	300	20%	60	48.95	7.50	450	32.0	1.530	45.89
Nature's Way Horny Goat Weed	60	500	10%	50	11.00	9.00	450	6.7	1.650	49.50
LiveLong Nutrition Icarlin Capsules, 60 Count	60	500	40%	200	45.90	2.25	450	26.7	1.721	51.64
ICARIIN 60	180	300	60%	180	126.00	2.50	450	72.0	1.750	52.50
ICARIIN 60	90	300	60%	180	70.00	2.50	450	36.0	1.944	58.33
VitaminShoppe Horny Goat Weed	120	250	10%	25	19.99	18.00	450	6.7	2.999	89.96
20g(0.7oz) Pure Horny Goat Weed/Epimedium Extract Powder, 98% Icariin	20	1000	98%	980	163.21	0.46	450	43.6	3.747	112.42
Prolab	60	250	10%	25	14.49	18.00	450	3.3	4.347	130.41
VitaminShoppe Horny Goat Weed	60	250	10%	25	14.99	18.00	450	3.3	4.497	134.91
Icariin - 5 Grams (0.18 Oz) - 98% Pure - FBLM from LiftMode	1	5000	98%	4900	62.00	0.09	450	10.9	5.694	170.82
twinlab	60	250	10%	25	19.99	18.00	450	3.3	5.997	179.91

I've ordered some of the two I've bolded. They both ship from Asia and will take weeks to arrive. I'll attempt to compare them to the ICARIIN 60.

 

[Vince Carter]

Reading about Arginine and Citrulline, mainly the ED qualities of NO, Citrulline is more effective in the end game for NO than Arginine, as 50-75% of Arginine is lost thru the liver converted to creatine and urea(?). They're converted in different pathways. Just interesting reading, I didn't know that previously.

 

[Pdubbs]

Gene and rest of the crew here. I have been using your stack minus the alpha blocker for approx 3 mos. The effects have been extraordinary. I feel better. Not only in pumps, but I have seen increased muscle growth and strength. I am attributing that to the Test/Estrogen effects of CIALIS. I saw somewhere here you mention no need to cycle this stack. How long have you been taking this stack and is there any fear of negative effects of CIALIS long term? Everything I have read about it has been positive: prostate benefits, anti-fibrotic effects, heart function improvement, blood pressure improvements. Is there any worry about eye or ear damage or anything else? Thanks in advance guys.

 

[midlifealpha]

Pretty stoked my GP had no issue prescribing me Doxazosin to replace my ACE-Inhibitor Lisinopril. I see Gene splits the doage so I'll need to crack the pill in half. Bear in mind although I am with Defy, my doc is totally willing to prescribe T I've not asked about HGH, but my enthusiasm waned a bit when he felt that insurance wouldn't cover it because my T-Levels are over 400. So there might be a small level of savings to go with the GP, but I think with Dely you get the focused attention. About the only advantage is shopping for my own Test Cyp/HCG (assuming he does HCG).

So anyway I am stocked to get the last part of the stack in place. I do modify the stack and not use L-Arginine. I've started doing fasted 4-5 mile walks when I wake up so maybe you could add L-Arginine if I walk or lift in the AM on an empty stomach otherwise I just take double the L-Citrulline.

 

[midlifealpha]

Any advantage to adding Sildenafil to the stack. One place has a nice coupon but everything I've read the boners we get from Tadalafil is just icing on the cake that long term use of Tadalafil is accociated with many other good health benefits where I fear Sildenafil is more for erections only.

 

[Vince]

Why Viagra Might Be an Effective Bodybuilding Drug
Viagra (sildenafil) is one of three FDA-approved, erection-promoting drugs called PDE-5 inhibitors that also include tadalafil (Cialis) and vardenafil (Levitra). They work by inhibiting the PDE-5 enzyme, which then increases the concentration of a chemical called nitric oxide that promotes blood flow to the penis and other tissues throughout the body. Blood vessels, smooth muscle, skeletal muscle, blood platelets, and lung tissue contain this and similar PDE enzymes. In addition to promoting erections, PDE-5 inhibitors decrease systemic blood pressure, lung blood pressure, lung resistance, and promote coronary (heart) blood flow. Long-term use improves endothelial function, which is critical to blood flow control.
The drugs reduce stress in pressure-overloaded hearts, which is important for bodybuilders because large increases in muscle tension restrict blood flow to working muscles. Increasing muscle blood flow during training could increase muscle strength, size, and fitness, while reducing stress on the heart. They also improve lung blood flow and boost quality of life in patients suffering from lung disease. These drugs have promising pulmonary and cardiovascular applications that go beyond firm erections.
To date, no study has found that Viagra improves exercise performance in athletes at sea level. The drug is helpful in people with blood pressure limitations that interfere with oxygen transport to the tissues. For example, lung blood pressure increases substantially in some people at altitude, which makes it difficult to move oxygen from the air into the bloodstream. Viagra reduces lung blood pressure, which enhances oxygen consumption and the capacity to exercise.
A small percentage of elite endurance athletes have a performance imbalance between the heart and lungs. Their powerful hearts exceed breathing capacity, which causes a mismatch between the pulmonary and cardiovascular systems. Viagra might increase lung function to match their superior heart capacity, which could give them a significant competitive advantage. However, other athletes might benefit as well.
Physical inactivity, diets high in saturated and trans-fats and simple sugars, and reduced muscle mass impair the ability of insulin receptors to regulate carbohydrates, amino acids (building blocks of proteins) and fats. Insulin sensitivity affects the health of the endothelium, the cells that line the blood vessels. These cells release nitric oxide (NO) that opens blood vessels in tissues throughout the body. Long-term use of Viagra has training-like effects on the endothelium, which increases its capacity to release NO. While the Viagra-induced improvements in blood flow control might be greater in men suffering from poor metabolic health, they might also promote blood flow in the muscles and nervous systems in bodybuilders and physically fit adults. Viagra doesn't appear to increase endurance performance following short-term use, but it might have long-term benefits in well-trained athletes.
Long-term use of Viagra might also benefit metabolic capacity by enhancing blood sugar control and increasing testosterone levels. Scientists from Vanderbilt University School of Medicine found that the drug helped restore energy balance and boosted insulin metabolism in mice fed high-fat diets (compared to a placebo). The animals showed lower blood sugar and insulin levels and improved blood sugar regulation after a high-carbohydrate meal. They also lost bodyweight and fat mass during the 12-week study. In humans, long-term use of Viagra increased the production of the blood vessel controlling chemical nitric oxide, which has strong links to insulin metabolism.
Viagra boosts testosterone, which is a critical hormone for increasing muscle mass, strength, and aggressiveness— all critical for athletes. Testosterone is linked to sexual arousal and performance. Middle-aged men who take testosterone supplements improve sex drive, capacity for erections, self-confidence, and aggressiveness. Italian researchers found that total and free testosterone levels increased by 50 percent in men treated for erectile dysfunction with Cialis or Viagra. It's not clear whether these drugs increased testosterone directly or if they increased it indirectly through increased sexual activity. Frequency of sexual intercourse was greatest in men who took Cialis (a longer-acting PDE-5 inhibitor), which makes it the preferred drug for men in stable relationships. Men who had the most sex also had the highest testosterone levels.
Factors affecting testosterone include psychological health, diet, exercise, and sexual activity. Men who have a lot of sex are happier, more confident, and have better-functioning sex organs than men who don't. The sex organs— like your muscles— function best when you use them, so Viagra might give them a boost. We don't know if Viagra increases testosterone levels in healthy, fit bodybuilders.
Long-term use of Viagra might also increase muscle strength, power, and size by triggering biochemical pathways that increase protein synthesis and prevent protein breakdown in muscle cells. As discussed, Viagra increases nitric oxide (NO) release by the blood vessels. NO helps turn on protein synthesis in muscles, particularly when the fibers are under tension or stretch. NO also triggers the formation of satellite cells that add mass to the muscle fibers. To date, no study has shown that Viagra and similar drugs have steroid-like effects in athletes, but we can infer from biochemical studies that they might.http://www.musculardevelopment.com/...-latest-research-on-exercise-performance.html

 

[Vince Carter]

Any advantage to adding Sildenafil to the stack. One place has a nice coupon but everything I've read the boners we get from Tadalafil is just icing on the cake that long term use of Tadalafil is accociated with many other good health benefits where I fear Sildenafil is more for erections only.

Tadalafil is more long acting, has a longer in hours effect where as Sildenafil is used for more of a now and in the moment type of benefit. It's clear to me why Tadalafil might be a better fit in a NO stack.

 

[raygo]

Adding Sildenafil?

Any advantage to adding Sildenafil to the stack. One place has a nice coupon but everything I've read the boners we get from Tadalafil is just icing on the cake that long term use of Tadalafil is accociated with many other good health benefits where I fear Sildenafil is more for erections only.

I think adding another PDE-5 inhibitor to the stack would be dangerous. I haven't tried tadalafil yet, but Sildenafil above 50 mg gives me terrible heartburn, flushing, and headaches. I rarely take it anymore.

ALSO: Sildenafil is very inconsistent as far as results go.

 

[raygo]

Alright, I've read through this entire post 3 times over the past 2 weeks. I decided to start with baby steps on this stack, starting with Arginine, Citruline, and Pycnogenol. I'd like to see how that makes me feel for 2-4 weeks. Next I'll add Beet Powder and Icariin/HGW. I'd like to avoid adding the pharmaceutical components to see if this is enough to restore some of my energy and wood , but you guys make a good case for low dose Tadalafil. I started today. We'll see how it goes.

UPDATE @ 6 PM: Wow, incredible headache. Most likely arginine related. May need to scale back slightly from the 3g dose.