Gene's Nitric Oxide Stack

[croaker24]

How about cutting up beets and adding to a protein smoothie? Or just eating beets raw?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

 

[CallMeD]

The pill is 50 mg with 20% Icariin. Three pills equal to 150 mg but still 20% Icariin.

The 60% is available online and I provided a link to it here.

Hi Gene, I think you're still missing the question. is 150mg the amount of Icariin, or is 150mg the amount of Horny Goat Weed?

Based on typical labeling, a 50 mg pill with 20% Icariin gives 10mg of actual Icariin. So, 3 pills would give 30 mg. If I have 500mg pills standardized for 10% Icariin, a single pill would give 50 mg.

 

[midlifealpha]

How about cutting up beets and adding to a protein smoothie? Or just eating beets raw?

I have an Omega J8004 juicer, and can report that Beets do work well. I don't think beets alone would do the trick for me the way Gene's stack has done, but for other guys perhaps it would be "good enough". Just from juicing a beet everyday I was suddenly getting morning wood, which I hadn't had in years.

In fact I was turned onto to TRT because of a thread I was following on one of the "Manosphere" forums. The blogger who was doing the writing was Mike Cernovich, and I'd appreciated his twitter feed as he was constantly doing battle with the Social Justice Warriors over GamerGate (As I recall he is an expert in Constitutional Law). Anyway he had contributed greatly at Rooshv's forum (Return of Kings), on a TRT thread. Once I realized TRT was going to help me in the weight room and with general manly things pretty well but not necessarily erection quality, I went over to his blog (DangerAndPlay) and he had a really good article on juicing beets for the nitric oxide benefits. Now he's since written I think three books on juicing as he is a big juicer (not in the testosterone sense haha).

For me I stopped juicing beats because I was concerned it might throw me out of a Ketogenic state, as it was the work of Taubes and Dr. Peter Attia that allowed me to lose that first 80 lbs. Frankly I just feel better when I am Ketogenic, but where I might have been off is that ingesting the beets pre-workout as part of a shake was probably fine. I can't recall but some of the target ketogenic diet folks (TKD) say right before or right after exercise the body can deal much better with the carbs, but I just didn't want to risk going out of Ketosis.

If you are not a low-carber then trying beets is probably worth it. In fact with it being a "super-food" supposedly there is good evidence to suggest having that beet is pretty healthy. When I juiced the beet, I did not bother peeling it. I just scrubbed the outside really well and cut it up into pieces that would fit in the juicer and it really worked well. Not quite as well as Gene's stack for me but it was a start in the right direction. If you don't want to take all the pills or (like I do) buy all the powders, or use the "tri-Amino" I would say give the beet a chance and see how you take it. Personally I cannot imagine eating the thing, I am not sure how I would choke it down.

 

[The Dude]

You can save a lot of time, trouble and carbs by using Activz Beet Juice Powder, available from Amazon, iherb and Vitamin Shoppe. In my research, this seems to be the best in terms of nitrates (and thus nitric oxide) per dollar, and also quality of manufacture. There are products that are cheaper per ounce, but they all are undocumented in terms of concentration. Activz is 25:1 and all the other 25:1 products are more expensive. The best tasting one is Flora crystals, but they are only 12.5:1, even though it is a little more expensive per ounce than Activz.

My current nitric oxide "stack" - entirely for circulation (blood flow), and not for workout pump or vascularity is:

* 3.5gmx2 tadalafil bedtime and awakening (looking at the Cialis blood concentration chart, the ideal would be every 8 hours - so perhaps 2.5gmx3 - but that is too inconvenient for me). The dosages of this seem to vary from person to person. If you get side effects, lower the dosage.
* 2 tsp Activz Beet Powder. Research shows once a day is enough. I take this right after lunch to minimize the blood sugar spike.
* 2.5gmx2 Bulk L-Citrulline Free Form (adding the Malic makes it very bitter and doesn't seem to add anything other than cost and I take Magnesium Malate anyway). One scoop with the Beets and one scoop in evening or morning. Amazon has a couple of suppliers in Bulk. Many scientific sites are saying this is better than Arginine, except for right before a workout.
* Nature's Way Heartcare Hawthorn Extract bedtime and awakening. This one works significantly better than other Hawthorn extracts - it is made in Germany and is the one with all the research studies, where it is called "WS 1442". This is supposed to help the nitrates in beets convert and also has its own vasodilation benefit.
* Grape Seed Extract - 250mg bedtime and awakening - NOW seems to be the cheapest, although bulk is yet much cheaper as long as you are prepared to get a little capsule machine and make your own capsules, as it is quite bitter. For blood flow, this does the same as Pycnogenol, even though the two are not identical. But this is significantly cheaper, and way cheaper if you use the Bulk.

NOTE: This is what works for me, based on trial-and-error, but everyone's body works differently (in fact a doctor friend once explained to me that this is a huge survival trait - if we were all the same, then any major virus would wipe out the whole human race.)

IF you have a health condition, and/or are taking other pharmaceuticals, check with your doctor first before taking the above.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

The Dude

I love your protocol! Will order the Beet Juice Powder!

 

[ironman]

Dude has definitely done a lot of research that we can benefit from. Thanks Dude

 

[midlifealpha]

Dude,

Am I reading your dosages correct, isn't your Taladafil much, much higher or am I having a conversion issue?

Also I just drop my 50mg does of Grape seed Extract into my shakes that contain the L-Citrulline/L-Arginine/L-Ornithine. Sounds like upping the amout by 5X means I can stop using that ridiculous 1/64 "rounded" spoon and just go with 1/4. Anyway it's been shaking up ok for me.

I assume those of us looking for the additional vascularity and pump benefits really just need to add the 3g of L-Arginine 3X per day.

So I am a little confused on the Tadalafil are you saying 3.5 mg?

You can save a lot of time, trouble and carbs by using Activz Beet Juice Powder, available from Amazon, iherb and Vitamin Shoppe. In my research, this seems to be the best in terms of nitrates (and thus nitric oxide) per dollar, and also quality of manufacture. There are products that are cheaper per ounce, but they all are undocumented in terms of concentration. Activz is 25:1 and all the other 25:1 products are more expensive. The best tasting one is Flora crystals, but they are only 12.5:1, even though it is a little more expensive per ounce than Activz.

My current nitric oxide "stack" - entirely for circulation (blood flow), and not for workout pump or vascularity is:

* 3.5gmx2 tadalafil bedtime and awakening (looking at the Cialis blood concentration chart, the ideal would be every 8 hours - so perhaps 2.5gmx3 - but that is too inconvenient for me). The dosages of this seem to vary from person to person. If you get side effects, lower the dosage.
* 2 tsp Activz Beet Powder. Research shows once a day is enough. I take this right after lunch to minimize the blood sugar spike.
* 2.5gmx2 Bulk L-Citrulline Free Form (adding the Malic makes it very bitter and doesn't seem to add anything other than cost and I take Magnesium Malate anyway). One scoop with the Beets and one scoop in evening or morning. Amazon has a couple of suppliers in Bulk. Many scientific sites are saying this is better than Arginine, except for right before a workout.
* Nature's Way Heartcare Hawthorn Extract bedtime and awakening. This one works significantly better than other Hawthorn extracts - it is made in Germany and is the one with all the research studies, where it is called "WS 1442". This is supposed to help the nitrates in beets convert and also has its own vasodilation benefit.
* Grape Seed Extract - 250mg bedtime and awakening - NOW seems to be the cheapest, although bulk is yet much cheaper as long as you are prepared to get a little capsule machine and make your own capsules, as it is quite bitter. For blood flow, this does the same as Pycnogenol, even though the two are not identical. But this is significantly cheaper, and way cheaper if you use the Bulk.

NOTE: This is what works for me, based on trial-and-error, but everyone's body works differently (in fact a doctor friend once explained to me that this is a huge survival trait - if we were all the same, then any major virus would wipe out the whole human race.)

IF you have a health condition, and/or are taking other pharmaceuticals, check with your doctor first before taking the above.

 

[The Dude]

Dude,

Am I reading your dosages correct, isn't your Taladafil much, much higher or am I having a conversion issue?

Also I just drop my 50mg does of Grape seed Extract into my shakes that contain the L-Citrulline/L-Arginine/L-Ornithine. Sounds like upping the amout by 5X means I can stop using that ridiculous 1/64 "rounded" spoon and just go with 1/4. Anyway it's been shaking up ok for me.

I assume those of us looking for the additional vascularity and pump benefits really just need to add the 3g of L-Arginine 3X per day.

So I am a little confused on the Tadalafil are you saying 3.5 mg?

The standard pills of Tadalafil are 20mg, 10mg, 5mg or 2.5mg. The originator of Tadalafil, Lilly, suggests 20mg or 10mg for "weekend sex" use and 5mg or 2.5mg for daily use (and the latter is what we are doing in this thread).

Many of the side effects come from vasodilation - stuffy nose, headaches, backaches. My experience is that one can lower the dosage until the side effects go away, and still have the positive benefits.

Please NOTE that dosages are entirely different from person to person, and can vary from many factors.

The numbers that I mention in my post are just what I am using of each substance, and different amounts will work for other people.

BTW, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I use a pill splitter on the tadalafil (88 cents at Walmart !) and then use a scale from Amazon to weight out consistent doses. Those changed as I experimented and 3.5mg is what I finally settled on. For someone who wants a simpler routine, they will want to stay closer to a half or quarter pill.

As far as Arginine, most research is now saying that - unless you are doing a workout within the hour - Citrulline is more effective in the long run. For example, see http://examine.com/supplements/Citrulline/ .

 

[midlifealpha]

Great Article Dude... Very informative.

I'm using the Liquid Tadalafil and did have a slightly sore back that first week but it's gone away. I see exactly what you are saying now thanks for clearing that up.

As far as it goes I posted what I am taking right now a few posts up and I would say Gene's stack helped in ways that TRT never did (or Sermorelin for that matter). I am not saying I am getting off, but at 46 the performance levels "outside" the gym (haha) are real eye openers.

However messing with all those powders daily is a slight pain. Now I have the L-Arginine for a while it came in a much larger back so it might be worth trying something like adding L-Arginine to pre-workout, along with one scoop (25 g Protein) of Zero Carb Isopure, and Creatine. (meaning pre-workout I might as well use up my L-Arginine). As much as I have I can probably continue the 3X daily, but it would be interesting to see if dropping that one amino to pre-workout only what it would do to that performance I am so happy with.

Like you say a lot of this is individual, though getting good ideas from guys like yourself and Gene helps us newbie's start to gain an understanding of where we want to go with this.


[/COLOR]

 

[fun2drive]

Update
I have been on Gen's stacker for about 4 months now. I do see an increase in vascularity and I am a bit stronger. One week ago I started on Testosterone Cyp injections SubQ at 100mg. Previously with Gene's stacker I would get about 2/3's wood once in a while, meaning erect but not firm and full. My T was 400-460 range but too low for my purpose. Have new blood work coming will post it. I am now as of a couple days ago getting full wood nocturnal and I can feel the plumpness in my muscles post workout. I am 63 in excellent shape, weight in line with BMI.
I am posting this because there is no doubt that Gene's stacker works. I also wanted to get my T to around 700 or maybe a touch more for health reasons. Will post my results but some of us might need the boost in T to get the results we want. I am hoping over the next few months to see muscle strength and size improvement. I have been unable to build muscle no matter how much time I put in over the last few years. I know it has to be related to T because previously I could build muscle using the same workout protocol. Yesterday was the first day I could actually feel the difference in how my triceps felt post workout. I am going to the gym now to work the biceps and see if that feeling remains. Also last night was the first night in a long time like 8 months where I slept better meaning around 6-7 hours sleep.
I am posting this to just share my experience. I do plan to continue Gene's stacker and use supplemental T help to keep my health in as good as I can.

 

[fun2drive]

As I stated my T level is 696 with E2 28 and free T 10. All good results. Now with Gene's stacker which I continue to take and getting my T to around 700 my nocturnal wood is good and I can really tell at the gym post workout that my muscles are pumped. I have been unable to get this result for the last 2-3 years. I was unable to get this result with Gene's stacker but with Gene's stacker and the T boosted to a level that was suggested by my uro I am getting the results I wanted.

I think the combination of the stacker and the T boost is needed for my physiology.

I can see the veins standing out in my arms most of the time but especially during and following a work out. I have never been a vascular guy but I am much more now.

Hope this helps those that are considering using the stacker. It works...

 

[Gene Devine]

Update
I have been on Gen's stacker for about 4 months now. I do see an increase in vascularity and I am a bit stronger. One week ago I started on Testosterone Cyp injections SubQ at 100mg. Previously with Gene's stacker I would get about 2/3's wood once in a while, meaning erect but not firm and full. My T was 400-460 range but too low for my purpose. Have new blood work coming will post it. I am now as of a couple days ago getting full wood nocturnal and I can feel the plumpness in my muscles post workout. I am 63 in excellent shape, weight in line with BMI.
I am posting this because there is no doubt that Gene's stacker works. I also wanted to get my T to around 700 or maybe a touch more for health reasons. Will post my results but some of us might need the boost in T to get the results we want. I am hoping over the next few months to see muscle strength and size improvement. I have been unable to build muscle no matter how much time I put in over the last few years. I know it has to be related to T because previously I could build muscle using the same workout protocol. Yesterday was the first day I could actually feel the difference in how my triceps felt post workout. I am going to the gym now to work the biceps and see if that feeling remains. Also last night was the first night in a long time like 8 months where I slept better meaning around 6-7 hours sleep.
I am posting this to just share my experience. I do plan to continue Gene's stacker and use supplemental T help to keep my health in as good as I can.

Thank you; it pleases me very much that it worked for you.

Life's to short to live it in misery.

Keep us posted on your continued results and gains in lean muscle mass.

 

[Vince Carter]

While I compile the other ingredients I have to say the 5mg 2x day Cialis is a wonderment. WOW. I've got the physical ability to go with my libido. I won't be using the prescription alpha blocker.

 

[croaker24]

I had an appt with an urologist yesterday as a 2nd opinion of my treatment regimen (due to my PCP's insistence) and I mentioned that I would like to get my BP down a little lower. He actually suggested looking into l-arginine. From what I'v read however, l-citrulline might be a better option. My question then is: which brand/form of l-citrulline should I find to improve vascularity/BP?

 

[The Dude]

I had an appt with an urologist yesterday as a 2nd opinion of my treatment regimen (due to my PCP's insistence) and I mentioned that I would like to get my BP down a little lower. He actually suggested looking into l-arginine. From what I'v read however, l-citrulline might be a better option. My question then is: which brand/form of l-citrulline should I find to improve vascularity/BP?

It's a relatively simple compound, so you are only looking for quality and reliability of the provider and brand.

If a powder works for you, then you can save some $$ by getting it in bulk from Amazon or other providers that you may already be using.

Since I take it orally with my beets, I use the "free form" L-Citrulline - which has a neutral, slightly sweet taste, as opposed to Citrulline Malate which has a very bitter taste (and which is cheaper per dose since it has more Citrulline per scoop).

 

[fun2drive]

As a subjective data point L-Arginine in powder form has a nasty taste. In pill form it doesn't because it is coated. L-Citrulline doesn't have a real bad taste. The combination of both (to me anyway) is worse than just the L-Arginine.

Might be the suppliers
I get the L-Citrulline powder from Piping Rock same with the L-Arginine in pill form. L-Arginine powder form from Now Sports.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Jerry Brainum (who I respect greatly) says this about citrulline as a better nitric oxide precursor:

"Another way to boost NO is to ingest another amino acid called citrulline.Citrulline is found in several fruits, with watermelon being a rich source. When ingested orally, citrulline is converted in the kidneys back into arginine, which then enters the blood and is converted into NO by NO-synthetase enzymes. This route bypasses the arginase barrier, so it is a reliable source of arginine for NO synthesis purposes. The usual suggested dose of citrulline for this is 6-8 grams ingested about 45 minutes prior to training. Once again, the studies on this are contradictory, and will be fully explored in a full feature in Applied Metabolics."

http://www.appliedmetabolics.com/subscribe/

 

[fun2drive]

Nelson
Thanks for the input. I do need to investigate other forms of getting Citrulline.
I appreciate what you and Gene do for contributions to this forum. Today was an example of the results. My muscles were pumped for a good while after my typical workout and my vascularity is significantly improved.
Had a physical yesterday and even with having my BP and pulse checked after walking into the exam room I was pleased to be at 115/60. I am usually in that range but having walked in without allowing for a true resting heart rate is credited to the stacker...

 

[Gene Devine]

Nelson
Thanks for the input. I do need to investigate other forms of getting Citrulline.
I appreciate what you and Gene do for contributions to this forum. Today was an example of the results. My muscles were pumped for a good while after my typical workout and my vascularity is significantly improved.
Had a physical yesterday and even with having my BP and pulse checked after walking into the exam room I was pleased to be at 115/60. I am usually in that range but having walked in without allowing for a true resting heart rate is credited to the stacker...

^^^^Good stuff right there!