For those who are struggling on TRT

[Charliebizz]

I have experienced it many times, loss of libido on the usual doses, and then coming off and off the libido is better even though my levels stay slightly below lab ranges now when i am off trt. So this leaves one to wonder if test levels are even the driving factor behind libido and erections, when you are causing stress to your system with too much test, it would be strange to have a good libido at the same time, my guess is when danny bossas of the world go way beyond, they use test to override negative changes or too much aromatase caused by injecting too much to begin with. I am waiting on enanthate, did one injection of sustanon at 50mg, but even that seemed to peak too high, disrupting sleep and causing nipple area irritation. Feel much better 5 days after injection. It seems i have always been pretty low t, so i am even considering starting test e at 40mg once a week as an experiment.

I wouldn’t put much stock in nipple burning sensation. That happens every time I change protocol or dose. And usually for me personally that’s when my libido is the best.

 

[Charliebizz]

Again, I'm trying 50 mg per week because, like @sh1973, I've tried every protocol/dosing, including pellets and compounded cream. Impressive looking labs are all I had. But when, out of frustration, I took several months off T, two years ago, I physically and mentally felt worse. My TT was 289. Free was 45. E2 was 21. Lost only a little weight but still had fat around my waist/stomach. IMO, I either have a narrow therapeutic window or there is cellular resistance. If, after three months or even longer, I don't experience improvements, I might retry pellets, but pay out of pocket in order that my urologist can implant many more than insurance would cover.

What have you tried in regards to the compounded cream? Me personally any amount to the scrotum causes some mood issues like anger and such. But when I did 4 clicks a day to scrotum my libido was absolutely insane. But the mental sides were too much. I’m currently trying 2 clicks to the thighs. So far I feel ok and libido is really good. But also only a week out from my last 30mg injection. (I was doing 90mg 3x a week) that said I have a decent libido on injections too. But cream seems to be much better and much better erection quality. I just get so worried about transference that I never made it past a month. I know I’m probably nuts but worry about my cloths and the washing machine and all that lol. I have two small kids.

 

[MIP1950]

What have you tried in regards to the compounded cream? Me personally any amount to the scrotum causes some mood issues like anger and such. But when I did 4 clicks a day to scrotum my libido was absolutely insane. But the mental sides were too much. I’m currently trying 2 clicks to the thighs. So far I feel ok and libido is really good. But also only a week out from my last 30mg injection. (I was doing 90mg 3x a week) that said I have a decent libido on injections too. But cream seems to be much better and much better erection quality. I just get so worried about transference that I never made it past a month. I know I’m probably nuts but worry about my cloths and the washing machine and all that lol. I have two small kids.

My urologist prescribes compounded cream. 10%. That doesn't work for me. I either needed multiple applications through the day or higher concentration. I believe Empower's is 50 mg per click. He'd probably prescribe it since I'm the problem patient. Mental sides, for me, would be seriously problematic, since my bipolar is untreatable.

 

[Mastodont]

I bought in to the cream hype but it was the worst thing i ever tried, well it is good to try anyway and not trying to take anything away from someone who found help from the cream, no greasy balls for me ever again.

 

[Charliebizz]

I bought in to the cream hype but it was the worst thing i ever tried, well it is good to try anyway and not trying to take anything away from someone who found help from the cream, no greasy balls for me ever again.

Oh ok so you did try it on the scrotum !! I admittedly didn’t give it long enough. However I don’t see how those nasty side effects would go away. If I rode it out.

 

[SSHSSA74]

As many of you know, I have struggled over the years ever feeling well on TRT. I’ve had doses all the way from 200 mg per week down to 60 mg per week. I have now been on TRT 13 years and can honestly say I’ve pretty much tried it all. I have contemplated, and even attempted quitting a few times but felt too bad to follow through with it. For the first seven or eight years I thought having more testosterone was better and was told since I have high SHBG that I must use larger doses in order to feel well. As many of you know I dropped my weekly dose down to 60 mg per week 2 1/2 or three years ago I guess. At this point it was the best I felt ever being on TRT. Even with that my libido still wasn’t great but overall I felt fantastic. So nearly 7 weeks ago I dropped my dose down to 52 mg per week. I now feel completely normal in every single aspect including libido. I feel like I have wasted over 12 years listening to what I should do, instead of doing what’s right for me. I feel absolutely normal now and I feel exactly the way I did before ever needing TRT. I haven’t done labs yet and will most likely do so in another couple weeks. I would imagine just judging by my levels on 60 mg per week that my seven day trough level is going to be around 550–575 ng. The moral of the story is, I think a lot of men would be better served by substantially lowering their dose. I would not put this post on here if I if I didn’t feel passionate about it and thought it was a fleeting moment. Again I can tell you for absolute certain, that I feel fantastic finally, in every single aspect.

Thanks for you insight!

 

[andrewBwinter]

Interesting. I have also tried higher doses and have not respond well. About 50mg/week is a normal production for the body regarding testosterone. So why inject 2-4 times more?! Of cours there will be lots of side effects. I will also try 50mg/week and se how l respond.
Thank you for sharing

About 50mg/week is a normal production for the body regarding testosterone. interesting

I hadn't thought about that. If a teen peaks at 19 for production and on average that teen has about an 800+ level then maybe my trough at 72 hours of 950 is overkill. Requires a good rethink.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

As many of you know, I have struggled over the years ever feeling well on TRT. I’ve had doses all the way from 200 mg per week down to 60 mg per week. I have now been on TRT 13 years and can honestly say I’ve pretty much tried it all. I have contemplated, and even attempted quitting a few times but felt too bad to follow through with it. For the first seven or eight years I thought having more testosterone was better and was told since I have high SHBG that I must use larger doses in order to feel well. As many of you know I dropped my weekly dose down to 60 mg per week 2 1/2 or three years ago I guess. At this point it was the best I felt ever being on TRT. Even with that my libido still wasn’t great but overall I felt fantastic. So nearly 7 weeks ago I dropped my dose down to 52 mg per week. I now feel completely normal in every single aspect including libido. I feel like I have wasted over 12 years listening to what I should do, instead of doing what’s right for me. I feel absolutely normal now and I feel exactly the way I did before ever needing TRT. I haven’t done labs yet and will most likely do so in another couple weeks. I would imagine just judging by my levels on 60 mg per week that my seven day trough level is going to be around 550–575 ng. The moral of the story is, I think a lot of men would be better served by substantially lowering their dose. I would not put this post on here if I if I didn’t feel passionate about it and thought it was a fleeting moment. Again I can tell you for absolute certain, that I feel fantastic finally, in every single aspect.

Two weeks ago went from 100 mg E5D to 50 mg E5D. Finding that anxiety, irritability,restlessness, depression and lethargy have increased. Is all this transient?

 

[sh1973]

Two weeks ago went from 100 mg E5D to 50 mg E5D. Finding that anxiety, irritability,restlessness, depression and lethargy have increased. Is all this transient?

It was for me and passed with time. I obviously can’t guarantee it will in your situation but you have to consider you’ve cut your dose in half. I went from 100 to 80 to 60 and now 52mg. The translation form 80 to 60 is what took 10-12 weeks for everything to normalize. You’re still doing 300mg per month which isn’t a super low dose by any means but you might require more than me.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

It was for me and passed with time. I obviously can’t guarantee it will in your situation but you have to consider you’ve cut your dose in half. I went from 100 to 80 to 60 and now 52mg. The translation form 80 to 60 is what took 10-12 weeks for everything to normalize. You’re still doing 300mg per month which isn’t a super low dose by any means but you might require more than me.

What sort of symptoms did you experience after reducing from 80 to 60 mg? A similar list to tropicaldaze? Seems like a good argument against starting TRT with a median dose that will require half of men to titrate down.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

It was for me and passed with time. I obviously can’t guarantee it will in your situation but you have to consider you’ve cut your dose in half. I went from 100 to 80 to 60 and now 52mg. The translation form 80 to 60 is what took 10-12 weeks for everything to normalize. You’re still doing 300mg per month which isn’t a super low dose by any means but you might require more than me.

I know it's easy to look at the dose change and presume that it's the cause of negative symptoms. It's a common theme that we see on testosterone forums and what drives men to make sudden changes in their protocol, which can send them into the wilderness.

For me, with a severe psychiatric illness, seemingly small changes can produce an overblown response. 100 mg - 30%(ester)= 70 mg, weekly. I cut that the actual T in half. Over the years, I've been a lesson for the psychiatrists I've seen, humbling them by my odd drug metabolism and intense sensitivity to medications. I'll see how this experiment plays out.

 

[sh1973]

I know exactly what you mean and even minute changes in any medication has a profound effect on me and that’s probably the reason I use such small doses of nearly all medications

 

[Mastodont]

I know exactly what you mean and even minute changes in any medication has a profound effect on me and that’s probably the reason I use such small doses of nearly all medications

have you ever tried injecting twice a week?

 

[Fortunate]

which can send them into the wilderness

This is an awesome quote. Been there! May still be there!

 

[sh1973]

have you ever tried injecting twice a week?

Yes and felt terrible no matter what the dose.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I know exactly what you mean and even minute changes in any medication has a profound effect on me and that’s probably the reason I use such small doses of nearly all medications

Thanks for sharing your story. As a fellow micro-doser, I am convinced that that overdosing as standard practice, not just for AAS but also other things like PT-141, is a major cause of disappointing outcomes, and the understanding of how to optimize lower doses is very much in its infancy. Until there is a significant population of people sharing experience in the lower dose ranges, individual experimentation will have to suffice, however hopefully stories like yours will prompt other people to try lower doses. I am also someone who seems to react very well to very small doses of things, and the good side of that is that side effects seem to be much less of an issue at the lower doses.

 

[sh1973]

Thanks for sharing your story. As a fellow micro-doser, I am convinced that that overdosing as standard practice, not just for AAS but also other things like PT-141, is a major cause of disappointing outcomes, and the understanding of how to optimize lower doses is very much in its infancy. Until there is a significant population of people sharing experience in the lower dose ranges, individual experimentation will have to suffice, however hopefully stories like yours will prompt other people to try lower doses. I am also someone who seems to react very well to very small doses of things, and the good side of that is that side effects seem to be much less of an issue at the lower doses.

Yeah I respond very well to most all medications and usually get all the side effects as well lol. I would never go back to a higher dose of t because I was utterly miserable in every regard. If nothing else, hopefully I can help someone else that is struggling the way I was.

 

[Yung4yrs]

About 50mg/week is a normal production for the body regarding testosterone. interesting

I hadn't thought about that. If a teen peaks at 19 for production and on average that teen has about an 800+ level then maybe my trough at 72 hours of 950 is overkill. Requires a good rethink.

Hey Andrew, here's some stuff for you to add to your "rethink".

1) 5-7 mg per day adult guy is the kinda standard thing on T production. BUT, if the NIH acted in a truly even-handed, non-feminized, non-PC fashion, the fact that in general testosterone levels have on average been dropping 10% per decade for the last 60 years would be declared a public health emergency.

April, 1999, Journal of Behavioral Medicine
4,393 men between 32 & 44, AVG total testosterone = 679 ng/dl
Range of actual draws: 53-1500; the study's statistically normal range: 270-1070

This means that 23 yrs ago close to half the male population your age was walking around and considered normal with a total T of 700-1100. Docs today consider 600-800 "normal" because it is the statistical mean after 60 years of American guys losing 10% per decade of their normal T.

Now again this was 23 yrs ago and guys 32-44 yrs old. Not 19 yr old teens. I might guess that in 1962 instead of 2022, half the 19 yr old teens may have been walking around with T between 1000 and 1500. I graduated HS in 1970. It sure felt like it then.

2) Guys constantly talk about how many mg's of T. But rarely do I see the differentiation between a testosterone preparation and actual raw T. T Cypionate for example is by weight only 65% T. The other 35% is the ester attached to the T molecule that gives it the "slo-release" property. So for example, 100mg of T Cyp yields 65mg of Testosterone USP.

3) If a guy IM injects 200 mg T Cyp once weekly into into his glute, as the ester releases the T at the injection site the guy gets 130mg released into the muscle tissue of his back side. How much usable hormone actually ends up in bloodstream? As a practical matter, this is what the blood tests are for. I don't think though it's 100%.

So my opinion is guys wanting to run an avg of say 700 to 1000 aren't "out of line", but rather may have been completely avg normal the day I graduated from high school. I say, "What's the matter with that?"

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Hey Andrew, here's some stuff for you to add to your "rethink".

1) 5-7 mg per day adult guy is the kinda standard thing on T production. BUT, if the NIH acted in a truly even-handed, non-feminized, non-PC fashion, the fact that in general testosterone levels have on average been dropping 10% per decade for the last 60 years would be declared a public health emergency.

April, 1999, Journal of Behavioral Medicine
4,393 men between 32 & 44, AVG total testosterone = 679 ng/dl
Range of actual draws: 53-1500; the study's statistically normal range: 270-1070

This means that 23 yrs ago close to half the male population your age was walking around and considered normal with a total T of 700-1100. Docs today consider 600-800 "normal" because it is the statistical mean after 60 years of American guys losing 10% per decade of their normal T.

Now again this was 23 yrs ago and guys 32-44 yrs old. Not 19 yr old teens. I might guess that in 1962 instead of 2022, half the 19 yr old teens may have been walking around with T between 1000 and 1500. I graduated HS in 1970. It sure felt like it then.

2) Guys constantly talk about how many mg's of T. But rarely do I see the differentiation between a testosterone preparation and actual raw T. T Cypionate for example is by weight only 65% T. The other 35% is the ester attached to the T molecule that gives it the "slo-release" property. So for example, 100mg of T Cyp yields 65mg of Testosterone USP.

3) If a guy IM injects 200 mg T Cyp once weekly into into his glute, as the ester releases the T at the injection site the guy gets 130mg released into the muscle tissue of his back side. How much usable hormone actually ends up in bloodstream? As a practical matter, this is what the blood tests are for. I don't think though it's 100%.

So my opinion is guys wanting to run an avg of say 700 to 1000 aren't "out of line", but rather may have been completely avg normal the day I graduated from high school. I say, "What's the matter with that?"

Hey Andrew, here's some stuff for you to add to your "rethink".

1) 5-7 mg per day adult guy is the kinda standard thing on T production. BUT, if the NIH acted in a truly even-handed, non-feminized, non-PC fashion, the fact that in general testosterone levels have on average been dropping 10% per decade for the last 60 years would be declared a public health emergency.

April, 1999, Journal of Behavioral Medicine
4,393 men between 32 & 44, AVG total testosterone = 679 ng/dl
Range of actual draws: 53-1500; the study's statistically normal range: 270-1070

This means that 23 yrs ago close to half the male population your age was walking around and considered normal with a total T of 700-1100. Docs today consider 600-800 "normal" because it is the statistical mean after 60 years of American guys losing 10% per decade of their normal T.

Now again this was 23 yrs ago and guys 32-44 yrs old. Not 19 yr old teens. I might guess that in 1962 instead of 2022, half the 19 yr old teens may have been walking around with T between 1000 and 1500. I graduated HS in 1970. It sure felt like it then.

2) Guys constantly talk about how many mg's of T. But rarely do I see the differentiation between a testosterone preparation and actual raw T. T Cypionate for example is by weight only 65% T. The other 35% is the ester attached to the T molecule that gives it the "slo-release" property. So for example, 100mg of T Cyp yields 65mg of Testosterone USP.

3) If a guy IM injects 200 mg T Cyp once weekly into into his glute, as the ester releases the T at the injection site the guy gets 130mg released into the muscle tissue of his back side. How much usable hormone actually ends up in bloodstream? As a practical matter, this is what the blood tests are for. I don't think though it's 100%.

So my opinion is guys wanting to run an avg of say 700 to 1000 aren't "out of line", but rather may have been completely avg normal the day I graduated from high school. I say, "What's the matter with that?"

The other part of the equation is that when we were in our mid to late teens and into our 20's, our bodies were producing sufficient amounts of pregnenolone, keeping our adrenal glands/DHEA production and thyroid, functioning efficiently. The whole endocrine and neuro-endocrine system was in balance.

Yes, testosterone is man fuel. As we age, though,(I'm 72), our pregnenolone & DHEA production drastically diminish. How much and how often to replenish one or both of them, I believe, is important.

 

[Cataceous]

...
This means that 23 yrs ago close to half the male population your age was walking around and considered normal with a total T of 700-1100. Docs today consider 600-800 "normal" because it is the statistical mean after 60 years of American guys losing 10% per decade of their normal T.
... I might guess that in 1962 instead of 2022, half the 19 yr old teens may have been walking around with T between 1000 and 1500. ...

I'd bet against this. And it's easy to get off-track by over-fixating on total testosterone. The range gets skewed by the variance in SHBG. You can't use plus-side outliers who likely have high SHBG to justify similar total testosterone levels in men with normal SHBG. Here's a different study with data collected in roughly the same time period. Mean total testosterone is 582 ng/dL, SD 159 ng/dL. An outlier at two standard deviations has a total testosterone of 900 ng/dL. Meanwhile, Vermeulen calculated free testosterone averages 12.7 ng/dL, SD 3.66 ng/dL. Someone with that average free testosterone can achieve a total testosterone of 900 ng/dL by having an SHBG of 66 nMol/L—and there are a few in the study with SHBG around that. Looking at it another way, if we take someone with the average SHBG for the study—30.3 nMol/L—and make him have a total testosterone of 900 ng/dL then his free testosterone is more than two standard deviations above the mean and probably inappropriate for him.

...
2) Guys constantly talk about how many mg's of T. But rarely do I see the differentiation between a testosterone preparation and actual raw T. T Cypionate for example is by weight only 65% T. The other 35% is the ester attached to the T molecule that gives it the "slo-release" property. So for example, 100mg of T Cyp yields 65mg of Testosterone USP.
...

We mention this frequently, and the correct figure for cypionate is 70% testosterone by weight.

...
3) If a guy IM injects 200 mg T Cyp once weekly into into his glute, as the ester releases the T at the injection site the guy gets 130mg released into the muscle tissue of his back side. How much usable hormone actually ends up in bloodstream? As a practical matter, this is what the blood tests are for. I don't think though it's 100%.
...

Every study I've seen concludes that absorption is close to 100%. Do you have evidence to the contrary?