For those who are struggling on TRT

[MIP1950]

Many guys never even consider low dose because the T clinics have conditioned us to think that anything less than 100mg per week is low despite fact that 52mg per week is in line with average physiological levels.

Thankfully there are bunch of guys on this forum like @sh1973 and @Cataceous and also on other forums (Emeric the bodybuilder) who challenged the status quo and started trying to replicate normal T endogenous production. My guess is that we will see more and more guys gravitating towards lower doses as the word spreads.

No doubt. As @sh1973 said,it took about 10 to 12 weeks to fully feel the effects and that's what I've read,irrespective of dosage. Six weeks seems to be too short of a therapeutic window. I'm not going to presume anything, just do my weekly injection. My standard would be return of nocturnal erections and morning wood. Sex drive/desire is always there when I'm on testosterone injections.

 

[Charliebizz]

That's great! I know that numbers are just numbers. The real proof is always in how a man is feeling and functioning, irrespective of the dose and the labs. Several years ago did 30 mg, IM, daily. TT:1500 FT:500 DHT:75 E2: 60. In my head, super horny, but nothing going on below. And I gained 15 pounds. Felt bloated and uncomfortable. My urologist did prescribe anastrozole but I was listening to one particular men's health advocate who said forget about controlling E2. 'Let it rise' was the message. And, for some men, maybe so. Emotionally and sexually, those men supposedly did better by not managing E2. I guess it's possible that I needed E2 at 100 but I was too miserable to let it keep rising.

Let's see how 50 mg, weekly, works out for me.

The real take away for me in this post is how little t it takes for Sh personally to have great numbers. 650 trough at day 7 is incredible. My numbers were way lower then that on 100mg a week. And you have to realize he is most likely peaking 1500+. So where is he spending most of his time in “normal range”

That said I’m super happy for Sh. Been talking to him for years about our issues and he’s been a great help especially dealing with my crazy ass.

 

[sh1973]

The real take away for me in this post is how little t it takes for Sh personally to have great numbers. 650 trough at day 7 is incredible. My numbers were way lower then that on 100mg a week. And you have to realize he is most likely peaking 1500+. So where is he spending most of his time in “normal range”

That said I’m super happy for Sh. Been talking to him for years about our issues and he’s been a great help especially dealing with my crazy ass.

I would say in my case that I'm most likely never above 1000ng because any time I've checked my peak in the past, it's been 400-500ng tops above my trough. In the past I've not had a substantial variation. At 100mg per week my peak was 1510ng at roughly 48 hours post injection.

 

[Charliebizz]

I would say in my case that I'm most likely never above 1000ng because any time I've checked my peak in the past, it's been 400-500ng tops above my trough. In the past I've not had a substantial variation. At 100mg per week my peak was 1510ng at roughly 48 hours post injection.

If you get bored test at peak for the name of science pal!!! Lol.

 

[MIP1950]

The real take away for me in this post is how little t it takes for Sh personally to have great numbers. 650 trough at day 7 is incredible. My numbers were way lower then that on 100mg a week. And you have to realize he is most likely peaking 1500+. So where is he spending most of his time in “normal range”

That said I’m super happy for Sh. Been talking to him for years about our issues and he’s been a great help especially dealing with my crazy ass.

I get what you're saying; that the day of the shot he gets a significant spike, then gradually down to the low point at day 7. Though there's criticism of once weekly injections, irrespective of the dose, you do have a slow roll down and after a couple of months, the trough is probably relatively consistent. Again, for me, the proof will be if Mr. Johnson comes back to life.

 

[sh1973]

If you get bored test at peak for the name of science pal!!! Lol.

I have a few times and it's been 400-500ng difference and seems to be less as the dose lowers which sorta makes sense.

 

[Charliebizz]

I have a few times and it's been 400-500ng difference and seems to be less as the dose lowers which sorta makes sense.

I get what you're saying; that the day of the shot he gets a significant spike, then gradually down to the low point at day 7. Though there's criticism of once weekly injections, irrespective of the dose, you do have a slow roll down and after a couple of months, the trough is probably relatively consistent. Again, for me, the proof will be if Mr. Johnson comes back to life.

I think some of us need that variability. But so much more too it then that also. Cause dosing cream 2 times a day (4clicks total) gave me rape like libido and crazy erections. And it only took a few days. But I believe 2x a day dosing you would have pretty stable levels. So maybe it really is the dht. But I know people over seas that take dht with trt and they say they don’t get the same libido boost like the cream

 

[MIP1950]

If you get bored test at peak for the name of science pal!!! Lol.

My urologist said, IIRC, the spread between the trough and peak is about 300.

I think some of us need that variability. But so much more too it then that also. Cause dosing cream 2 times a day (4clicks total) gave me rape like libido and crazy erections. And it only took a few days. But I believe 2x a day dosing you would have pretty stable levels. So maybe it really is the dht. But I know people over seas that take dht with trt and they say they don’t get the same libido boost like the cream

With injections, does DHT began to rise as soon as T is injected? Do they track each other? I understand there's an ezymatic process or processes involved. I ask because for a couple of months, I've been finding that my libido begins to rise in late afternoon/early evening and by 9:30/10 p.m., quite horny, with semi-erection. I take my weekly injection in the morning, between 5 & 6. I understand why topical on the scrotum can increase erections, because of the abundance of 5-AR receptors. I'm still a puzzle trying to figure me out.

 

[Fortunate]

One of the most compelling facts about the success story is that @sh1973 feels even and stable throughout the week. This would suggest that he is at a steady state, with predictable and regular peaks and valleys.

I recall reading in the Xyosted study, Pharmacokinetic Profile of Subcutaneous Testosterone Enanthate Delivered via a Novel, Prefilled Single-Use Autoinjector: A Phase II Study, that with the 50mg weekly injection, there was no dose accumulation. The guys at this dose were hitting their trough every week and starting from the same bottom by the time of their next injection every week.

There were only 14 subjects in the 50mg treatment arm, so not a huge number. That said, I wonder how this fits with @sh1973's experience? Do we think he is rising from trough to peak every week, like in the Xyosted study? If so, how does he feel good later in the week? His Cavg would obviously be higher than with no treatment at all, but if the data is correct, he should be hitting a bottom late in the week.

Is the data not accurate? Is he an outlier? Or, is this just one of those weird physiology/adaptation things we can't explain?

 

[sh1973]

One of the most compelling facts about the success story is that @sh1973 feels even and stable throughout the week. This would suggest that he is at a steady state, with predictable and regular peaks and valleys.

I recall reading in the Xyosted study, Pharmacokinetic Profile of Subcutaneous Testosterone Enanthate Delivered via a Novel, Prefilled Single-Use Autoinjector: A Phase II Study, that with the 50mg weekly injection, there was no dose accumulation. The guys at this dose were hitting their trough every week and starting from the same bottom by the time of their next injection every week.

There were only 14 subjects in the 50mg treatment arm, so not a huge number. That said, I wonder how this fits with @sh1973's experience? Do we think he is rising from trough to peak every week, like in the Xyosted study? If so, how does he feel good later in the week? His Cavg would obviously be higher than with no treatment at all, but if the data is correct, he should be hitting a bottom late in the week.

Is the data not accurate? Is he an outlier? Or, is this just one of those weird physiology/adaptation things we can't explain?

My trough numbers have never been much different than the peak unless using topical and it doesn’t matter what dose or frequency. Like I was saying earlier in the thread it’s typically only about 400 ng different from when I checked the peak compared to the low point in the past. After 5 half lives you technically should never go below a certain value and should certainly never bottom out at only seven days. I did a brief period of 200 mg every two weeks and my numbers were still at 850ng 14 days after injecting 200 mg. I think a lot of this telling people they can’t inject once a week or once every two weeks is a lot of bro science. I’ve had several doctors over the years including some really top-notch urologists that have stated they have a good number of men doing every other week injections that feel fantastic and as a matter of fact my last doctor had a patient that had been doing 40 mg per week for 17 years and feels fantastic. These medications regardless of SHBG sit in the depot until released so this misconception people have that people with a lower SHBG are going to clear that faster is nonsense. You will clear what’s in circulation faster than someone like myself, but what’s in the Depot remains the same regardless of a SHBG.

 

[Charliebizz]

My trough numbers have never been much different than the peak unless using topical and it doesn’t matter what dose or frequency. Like I was saying earlier in the thread it’s typically only about 400 ng different from when I checked the peak compared to the low point in the past. After 5 half lives you technically should never go below a certain value and should certainly never bottom out at only seven days. I did a brief period of 200 mg every two weeks and my numbers were still at 850ng 14 days after injecting 200 mg. I think a lot of this telling people they can’t inject once a week or once every two weeks is a lot of bro science. I’ve had several doctors over the years including some really top-notch urologists that have stated they have a good number of men doing every other week injections that feel fantastic and as a matter of fact my last doctor had a patient that had been doing 40 mg per week for 17 years and feels fantastic. These medications regardless of SHBG sit in the depot until released so this misconception people have that people with a lower SHBG are going to clear that faster is nonsense. You will clear what’s in circulation faster than someone like myself, but what’s in the Depot remains the same regardless of a SHBG.

I’ve showed you my labs and you can see it’s a much different story for us low shbg guys. I’ve dropped 400points in 24 hours in labs.

 

[sh1973]

I’ve showed you my labs and you can see it’s a much different story for us low shbg guys. I’ve dropped 400points in 24 hours in labs.

Not with a large once weekly dose. You are referring to much smaller doses and a different frequency than I am using.

 

[Fortunate]

My trough numbers have never been much different than the peak unless using topical and it doesn’t matter what dose or frequency. Like I was saying earlier in the thread it’s typically only about 400 ng different from when I checked the peak compared to the low point in the past. After 5 half lives you technically should never go below a certain value and should certainly never bottom out at only seven days. I did a brief period of 200 mg every two weeks and my numbers were still at 850ng 14 days after injecting 200 mg. I think a lot of this telling people they can’t inject once a week or once every two weeks is a lot of bro science. I’ve had several doctors over the years including some really top-notch urologists that have stated they have a good number of men doing every other week injections that feel fantastic and as a matter of fact my last doctor had a patient that had been doing 40 mg per week for 17 years and feels fantastic. These medications regardless of SHBG sit in the depot until released so this misconception people have that people with a lower SHBG are going to clear that faster is nonsense. You will clear what’s in circulation faster than someone like myself, but what’s in the Depot remains the same regardless of a SHBG.

I think you make some good points. I am not terribly worried about feeling like I am at a “bottom“, although that was the point of my above post. Currently, my particular struggle is the effect I feel when I hit max levels. For example, if I inject 50 mg, about 36 hours later, I feel anxious and my blood pressure is a bit elevated. I suspect this corresponds with my peak.

My hope is that over time, I will adapt to this and not “feel it“ so much once I hit a steady state.

Watching with interest…

 

[sh1973]

I think you make some good points. I am not terribly worried about feeling like I am at a “bottom“, although that was the point of my above post. Currently, my particular struggle is the effect I feel when I hit max levels. For example, if I inject 50 mg, about 36 hours later, I feel anxious and my blood pressure is a bit elevated. I suspect this corresponds with my peak.

My hope is that over time, I will adapt to this and not “feel it“ so much once I hit a steady state.

Watching with interest…

Yeah like I said it took nearly 3 months for everything to click but one everything settled I literally feel no different from one day to the next. It could also be because I’m not ramping up to 3 times a normal level like before on the higher doses.

 

[Charliebizz]

Not with a large once weekly dose. You are referring to much smaller doses and a different frequency than I am using.

That’s also true. I never tested peak when I did 1x a week injection. I am gonna try less frequent injections at some point again. I’m low shbg but I feel better on 3x a week as opposed to eod and daily’s. So maybe 1-2x a week will do the trick.

 

[Cataceous]

... It could also be because I’m not ramping up to 3 times a normal level like before on the higher doses.

The expected trend is for the apparent half-life to increase with dose; the injected depot's surface area-to-volume ratio is reduced, thus slowing the rate of absorption relative to volume. My guess is that you have slow absorption in general when compared to average rates.

 

[sh1973]

The expected trend is for the apparent half-life to increase with dose; the injected depot's surface area-to-volume ratio is reduced, thus slowing the rate of absorption relative to volume. My guess is that you have slow absorption in general when compared to average rates.

If I could tolerate the peak I could easily get by with doing every other week but I’ve tried various noses and around the 4-5 day mark it’s just got awful.

 

[Mastodont]

I have experienced it many times, loss of libido on the usual doses, and then coming off and off the libido is better even though my levels stay slightly below lab ranges now when i am off trt. So this leaves one to wonder if test levels are even the driving factor behind libido and erections, when you are causing stress to your system with too much test, it would be strange to have a good libido at the same time, my guess is when danny bossas of the world go way beyond, they use test to override negative changes or too much aromatase caused by injecting too much to begin with. I am waiting on enanthate, did one injection of sustanon at 50mg, but even that seemed to peak too high, disrupting sleep and causing nipple area irritation. Feel much better 5 days after injection. It seems i have always been pretty low t, so i am even considering starting test e at 40mg once a week as an experiment.

 

[sh1973]

I have experienced it many times, loss of libido on the usual doses, and then coming off and off the libido is better even though my levels stay slightly below lab ranges now when i am off trt. So this leaves one to wonder if test levels are even the driving factor behind libido and erections, when you are causing stress to your system with too much test, it would be strange to have a good libido at the same time, my guess is when danny bossas of the world go way beyond, they use test to override negative changes or too much aromatase caused by injecting too much to begin with. I am waiting on enanthate, did one injection of sustanon at 50mg, but even that seemed to peak too high, disrupting sleep and causing nipple area irritation. Feel much better 5 days after injection. It seems i have always been pretty low t, so i am even considering starting test e at 40mg once a week as an experiment.

I agree with everything you’re saying and I think you’re spot on in the fact that most men have their systems terribly overstimulated. This is what leads to issues such as lack of libido and erection issues. I have much better erections at lower test levels than I ever did at higher levels. I also am the type of person that worries about my long-term health and have zero desire to be walking around jacked to the gills out of vanity. I just want to be normal and feel normal.

 

[MIP1950]

Again, I'm trying 50 mg per week because, like @sh1973, I've tried every protocol/dosing, including pellets and compounded cream. Impressive looking labs are all I had. But when, out of frustration, I took several months off T, two years ago, I physically and mentally felt worse. My TT was 289. Free was 45. E2 was 21. Lost only a little weight but still had fat around my waist/stomach. IMO, I either have a narrow therapeutic window or there is cellular resistance. If, after three months or even longer, I don't experience improvements, I might retry pellets, but pay out of pocket in order that my urologist can implant many more than insurance would cover.