@Cataceous there's high and then there's HIGH. There's a bit of a difference from 50 and 300. Also, there is a big difference between the way males and females react to hormones. I gave my wife a TINY dose of test at one point and the reaction was almost hilarious.
Ditch your AI now - you don't need it!
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Here is what I know. When a man goes to a doctor and says "Doc. Please turn me into a chick, tits and all' the doctor will proceed to give him estrogen but only in levels that never exceed 200. Typically in the 100 range. Why wont the doctor put him at a level over 200? Because their is harm in doing so.
If you want to walk around as a man with your estrogen levels at the same rate as a dude who is contemplating having his hog chopped off then thats good for you.
@tmaxey1 question for you: Say the guy actually has 200 for E2. What happens if, while having that, he also has T at 3000 (just to exaggerate the example)? Would he still grow tits? Would he have ANY symptoms? Is it at all possible, and I'm speculating here, that he might even feel just fine due to the ratio itself?
I would imagine (speculating like you) that the majority of men would have water retention, high blood pressure, and gynocomastia growth at 200 levels of E2. The breast tissue receptors dont seem to care what your testosterone levels are since E2 and Test are not competing for the receptors in the breast.
Of course like anything its a case by case basis. Just like 1 women can have A cups and another can have D cups with the same hormone levels.
Exactly, which is why I don't believe believe leaving my estradiol over 50 pg/mL is demonstrably safer than lowering it artificially to 30 pg/mL. The higher level resulted in excessive emotional responsiveness, which was interesting, but didn't feel remotely "natural". The lower level is known to be ok for males long-term. Your objections are in the alleged toxicity of the AI itself, except that no evidence has been presented for this; and in the possibility that higher estradiol is more cardio-protective even in males, except again we don't have the evidence.
BTW, very curious: how much T did you give your wife and what was the reaction?
Sean Mosher
Member
That's an interesting question.
For the guys that are juicing and cycling, I've always wondered if they have been constantly lowering their E2 levels far too much, looking for a sweet spot when their T levels are 3-5 times the supposed sweet spot for the optimal T levels.
Juicing in and of itself is illogical but then aiming for a low estrogen "sweet spot" with an astronomical T level is extremely illogical.
What's interesting is that the limited supply of aromatase means that there are upper limits to how much estradiol males can create naturally. These limits average about 100 pg/mL in younger men and 140 pg/mL in older guys. Yes, there will be guys with more aromatase who can hit 200 pg/mL, but this will be uncommon.
Another counter-effect is in DHT creation. It's also enzyme-limited, but as long as it goes up along with estradiol it may prevent some problems via competitive binding at the E2 receptors.
Vince Carter
Banned
This is a high Estrogen symptom, arguing, discussing, can't let things go, insists they're "right" and you're "wrong" even when presented with Empirical and logical evidence, operating strictly on emotion.
It's like arguing with your woman, especially when she's on the rag.
@Simon7 ... careful...
@Cataceous I gave her 20mg. I kid you not, we went at it like rabbits for 3 days and she had this aggressive demeanor about her. After the fact she stated she felt slightly "out of control" and said she wouldn't want to touch the stuff again.
@Vince Carter , I didn't mention any symptoms. I said, "Would he have ANY symptoms?". Again, I'm speculating as to what would happen.
Is it at ALL POSSIBLE that there is harm involved in taking a drug that prevents the body from doing something it is trying to do naturally?
@Cataceous I gave her 20mg. I kid you not, we went at it like rabbits for 3 days and she had this aggressive demeanor about her. After the fact she stated she felt slightly "out of control" and said she wouldn't want to touch the stuff again.
@Vince Carter , I didn't mention any symptoms. I said, "Would he have ANY symptoms?". Again, I'm speculating as to what would happen.
Is it at ALL POSSIBLE that there is harm involved in taking a drug that prevents the body from doing something it is trying to do naturally?
@dbossa, theoretically anything is possible, we have to use the known data, common sense and weigh the alternatives. Microdosing AI is not preventing the aromatase process but merely moderating it. The purpose of the aromatase is to generate the amount of E2 the male body needs, and from all the blood tests we know that the normal range for men is 20-30 pg/ml. So as long as we allow the aromotase to fill its function I doubt it's a problem and there is no data that suggests that low dose AI is causing any harm.
On the other hand allowing E2 to rise to high levels such as 80 pg/ml or over due to high levels of aromatisation of exogenous Testosterone is likely to cause problems as these are not natural levels. We are already aware of some of the problems of high E2 (gyno, water retention, moodiness, etc) and there are studies on some dangers of high E2 for men (for example the study mentioned above regarding increased risk for breast cancer) but most likely there are many problems of highly elevated E2 we are yet unaware of as without TRT men typically did not reach such high levels and these effects were not studied.
Thus I'd say that given the data we know the safe route is to maintain E2 within the normal levels for men using whatever means you prefer and best works for you - adjusting T dose, frequency, AI or DIM. To turn a blind eye and let E2 run very high and unmanaged seems to be a reckless and irresponsible choice.
On the other hand allowing E2 to rise to high levels such as 80 pg/ml or over due to high levels of aromatisation of exogenous Testosterone is likely to cause problems as these are not natural levels. We are already aware of some of the problems of high E2 (gyno, water retention, moodiness, etc) and there are studies on some dangers of high E2 for men (for example the study mentioned above regarding increased risk for breast cancer) but most likely there are many problems of highly elevated E2 we are yet unaware of as without TRT men typically did not reach such high levels and these effects were not studied.
Thus I'd say that given the data we know the safe route is to maintain E2 within the normal levels for men using whatever means you prefer and best works for you - adjusting T dose, frequency, AI or DIM. To turn a blind eye and let E2 run very high and unmanaged seems to be a reckless and irresponsible choice.
@Simon7 - you state "is not preventing it". You realize that it is an aromataze inhibitor. The simple act of inhibiting something means that it is preventing it. In this case, it is preventing a portion of it from occurring. I also asked for evidence as to how this 20-30 range we were all taught is actual fact but I haven't seen any of that either so far. Also, again, what level of E2 is considered 'high' for men? If I'm, say, currently at 50 (I'm guessing here), and symptom free, what does that mean?
But you are forgetting that Jay Campbell went and had gynocomastia surgery and now he needs to promote his business so he decided to yell in his fading voice about how stupid intelligent doctors like Rand and Saya are for moderating patients E2. Meanwhile he is lathering up his testicles with so much DHT that I have started to watch the rountable just to see how much hair he loses each week.
The guy is a saleman. He uses his roundtable as a paid commercial for doctors to promote their business. Most doctors on the roundtable actually prescribe AI's.
Its a shame because he is right about many aspect of TRT. He just went off the deep end with the anti AI crusade.
DragonBits
Well-Known Member
Really specious, because you are artificially raising your Total T way above anything natural.
Your body is attempting to shut down your T, and you aren't allowing it to. There are feedback loops for high E that also attempt to shut down T production, which you are overriding also.
And you actually have no idea if you E2 is high or not or how high it is.
Once you create an unnatural hormone situation, who knows what is healthy and what needs to be controlled?
@dbossa , you were answered earlier in this thread that the normal range of E2 for men was determined by many-many blood tests.
The following excerpt is from a study published in 2010:
The clinical consequences of higher E2 levels and higher E2:T ratios in older men remain poorly understood. In longitudinal studies in older men, higher E2 levels have been associated with adverse outcomes such as stroke (38) and cognitive decline (39). In cross-sectional studies, higher E2 levels have been associated with the increased risk of metabolic syndrome (40) and type 2 diabetes mellitus.
You've started this thread claiming that everyone should ditch the AI because it is supposedly toxic. It seems that you have realised by now that your claim was baseless. I'm glad you are currently feeling good on your current protocol. However you should consider what is best for your body long term and should measure your E2 and make an informed choice on how to manage it considering the scientific data and risks involved. Beware of false prophets.
I wish you the best of health.
The following excerpt is from a study published in 2010:
The clinical consequences of higher E2 levels and higher E2:T ratios in older men remain poorly understood. In longitudinal studies in older men, higher E2 levels have been associated with adverse outcomes such as stroke (38) and cognitive decline (39). In cross-sectional studies, higher E2 levels have been associated with the increased risk of metabolic syndrome (40) and type 2 diabetes mellitus.
You've started this thread claiming that everyone should ditch the AI because it is supposedly toxic. It seems that you have realised by now that your claim was baseless. I'm glad you are currently feeling good on your current protocol. However you should consider what is best for your body long term and should measure your E2 and make an informed choice on how to manage it considering the scientific data and risks involved. Beware of false prophets.
I wish you the best of health.
A tip of the hat to the late Curt Moyer for his page on normal estradiol levels in non-obese males. The underlying reference is here.
Age range: Average estradiol measured by RIA
Looking at the reference we find that the standard deviation for the youngest cohort—with the highest estradiol—is 6.4 pg/mL. So how many men are expected to be above three standard deviations from the average, meaning above 47 pg/mL? The answer, about one in 740. What about four standard deviations, above 54 pg/mL? Answer: about one in 31,574. So you can see that's getting pretty far away from what's expected in healthy young men, whose physiologies we are generally trying to reproduce.
DragonBits
Well-Known Member
I do believe people vary in how many receptors for hormones they have, making them more or less sensitive to T, E2, all other hormones, etc,etc.
So maybe for you 50 is a good level. It's high, but not IMO weirdly high.
I have had as high as 56 pg/ml, I gain water weight and higher blood pressure. IMO I am sensitive to E2 and naturally don't produce a lot of it. Most of the time I am between 15-26.
Never taken an AI, actually for 5 years on Nebido TRT only blood test I did was for total T/FT/PSA and that was after 2 years on TRT, and to make matters even "worse" from a traditional doctors or posters POV, only blood test I did before starting TRT was for PSA level.
I "assume" my total T before starting Nebido in 2009 was around 370 pg/ml because I did a blood test 14 years before starting TRT.
No reason for it to have gotten better.But with Nebido you inject once every 10-12 weeks and don't jack your Total T / E2 up or down by increasing or decreasing anything. (amounts injected or timing). There was nothing for me to fine tune / dial in and I wasn't under a clinic / doctor's care so no one to tell me what blood tests they wanted to see.
It's only recently in the last 3 years that I have gotten more frequent blood tests. Partly I have to and partly it's cheaper and easier to do. But I am inclined in the future (maybe 6 months from now) to only test once a year unless it's something a local doctor wants me to test and it's covered by medicare.
Of course, if I have a problem, I will get blood tests, even see a doctor. But otherwise, once a year suits me.
However, if you are going to post about hormones, what's healthy or not and protocols, IMO you should get blood tests to back up what you are posting about, but ....
I am really pretty laissez faire about what people want to do.
I think the best thing to do to show people that high E2 isn’t “bad” is get your sensitive E2 tested, and hopefully it’s through the roof lol.
Because if it is say 50, then without realizing it, you’re actually advocating for people to use ai’s, if that’s what’s required for them to have an E2 of say 40-65, for example.
If your E2 comes back at 70-100, yes, that would back your views on letting E2 land wherever it wants to land. But if it comes back at around 50, you’re basically just saying that there’s potential for guys to do well with E2 slightly above the top end of the range.
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T cypionate? I think normal TRT for women is about 0.5 mg pure T per day, which translates to five mg T cypionate per week.
What I don’t get is the debate on what normal levels of E2 are in the general population not on TRT. They’ve already done this study. How do you think we got the range for E2? It comes from testing “X” number of men, ages probably 18-80ish, and took the average high, and average low E2 levels. And added two deviations to both the high end, and the low end. Yes, we can say that we are dealing with a “sick” population, but it’s still showing what E2 levels most men have. So why are we still debating over what E2 levels guys are walking around with?
I love this discussion and appreciate the varying perspectives. The one thing that, although touched on, is largely missing here is our main mantra of "treat the symptoms, not the numbers". Now I understand we use the numbers as a gage of where we feel the best and to help guide ideas on what to do next, but maybe we are too focused on studies in this thread? dbossa you are feeling great with your current protocol which is something we all strive for. So it looks like you are in YOUR sweet spot. As a daily injector I do not (do not have to) take an AI and prefer not largely because unlike Testosterone it is not replacing something that was already in us and is a foreign chemical to our bodies.
dbossa even though you feel good currently, if I was you I would want to know where my E2 sits. If for no other reason, so that if you ever start feeling less well you can compare the numbers from when you felt great to what they've become and give you a target to aim for.
Just my two cents
dbossa even though you feel good currently, if I was you I would want to know where my E2 sits. If for no other reason, so that if you ever start feeling less well you can compare the numbers from when you felt great to what they've become and give you a target to aim for.
Just my two cents
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