Yes. It will in the long run.... If you use right amounts of T dosed in the right manner, you won't need any AI when you lose fat and correct your nutrition...
I am asking you, why would you microdose another toxic drug if you don't need it ?
Ditch your AI now - you don't need it!
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Yes. It will in the long run.... If you use right amounts of T dosed in the right manner, you won't need any AI when you lose fat and correct your nutrition...
I am asking you, why would you microdose another toxic drug if you don't need it ?
madman
Super Moderator
In a majority of cases yes as higher T----->higher e2 and getting/staying lean as in having low body fat levels will make a huge difference but do understand that lean individuals can still be over aromatizers.....point being Dr. Crisler was one of them as his physique was top notch/very lean yet he still needed/used an aromatase inhibitor in micro doses to combat issue with excess e2 up until the point when he recently decided to drop the a.i.
I have never used an a.i. and never will and again testosterones metabolites e2/DHT are critical to the overall positive effects and are needed in healthy amounts in order to truly reap the overall beneficial effects of testosterone.
Majority of men on a sensible trt protocol will never need to use an aromatase inhibitor but there are men who will need to use microdoses in order to feel best on such protocol.
Most understand how critical e2 levels are to ones overall health!
So rant and rave all you want as I am more than well and aware of the importance of healthy e2 levels
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." The same applies to the dearth of studies showing that supraphysiological estradiol is beneficial to men.
CoastWatcher
Moderator
You can post links. They are subject to review.
Who told you this nonsense?I wouldn't post this if it had just been a few days, I assure you.
I challenge you or anyone to show me any proof or studies where using a dosage of AI to keep your E2 levels between 15-30 does any harm to any men.
You come here yelling about poison and toxic AI but you offer no proof. Stop watching that TRT roundtable blowhard.
Prove that AI is toxic in dosages that keep estrogen normal for a health man.
DragonBits
Well-Known Member
There are a lot of studies of high levels of estrogen causing increased autoimmune diseases, Hashimoto’s and allergies, mostly in women because they have high estrogen.
I could post links, but it's easy to google and get lots of hits on this subject.
I can say with relative certainty that by increasing my E2 5-10 times I am now allergic to penicillin drugs, brimonidine and cosopt / dorzolamide.
I have never tested it, but it might be that my allergic reactions go up and down depending on my level of E2. Once I had an allergic reaction, I just avoid the substance.
Off TRT, my E2 was unmeasurable at less than 5pg/ml and now it's 20-50 pg/ml. When E2 was below 5 pg/ml, no problem with the drugs I mentioned. When above, I got allergic reactions.
As far as the more serious E2 problems, it takes a while for autoimmune diseases to manifest, so maybe in the future if men let their E2 go supraphysiological they will see less heart attacks and more lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, etc, etc. Also to note, if you have hypothyroidism, you may need to raise your thyroxine levels because of the higher E2. Interesting that excess estrogen can trigger Hashimoto’s.
I have spent nearly 6 years on Nebido, never used an AI, only used HCG for 4 months. Actually, for 5 years never did a blood test for anything other that Tot t, FT a finger stick for lipids, so no idea of what anything else was. I didn't take any other drugs, so no idea of allergic reactions, though I was allergic to cat dander.
IMO the higher level of E2, higher than 5 that is, is important for my health. At that low of a level, I tend to get more tendon / joint pain from exercise. With E2 20-40, no problems.
I will probably START an AI, as I was thinking of using small AI doses to keep my E2 under ~45, just to limit water weight gain / higher blood pressure. Not enough to put E2 lower than ~35 pg/ml, though I feel fine at 15 ng/dl, I wouldn't want to keep it there.
I could post links, but it's easy to google and get lots of hits on this subject.
I can say with relative certainty that by increasing my E2 5-10 times I am now allergic to penicillin drugs, brimonidine and cosopt / dorzolamide.
I have never tested it, but it might be that my allergic reactions go up and down depending on my level of E2. Once I had an allergic reaction, I just avoid the substance.
Off TRT, my E2 was unmeasurable at less than 5pg/ml and now it's 20-50 pg/ml. When E2 was below 5 pg/ml, no problem with the drugs I mentioned. When above, I got allergic reactions.
As far as the more serious E2 problems, it takes a while for autoimmune diseases to manifest, so maybe in the future if men let their E2 go supraphysiological they will see less heart attacks and more lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, etc, etc. Also to note, if you have hypothyroidism, you may need to raise your thyroxine levels because of the higher E2. Interesting that excess estrogen can trigger Hashimoto’s.
I have spent nearly 6 years on Nebido, never used an AI, only used HCG for 4 months. Actually, for 5 years never did a blood test for anything other that Tot t, FT a finger stick for lipids, so no idea of what anything else was. I didn't take any other drugs, so no idea of allergic reactions, though I was allergic to cat dander.
IMO the higher level of E2, higher than 5 that is, is important for my health. At that low of a level, I tend to get more tendon / joint pain from exercise. With E2 20-40, no problems.
I will probably START an AI, as I was thinking of using small AI doses to keep my E2 under ~45, just to limit water weight gain / higher blood pressure. Not enough to put E2 lower than ~35 pg/ml, though I feel fine at 15 ng/dl, I wouldn't want to keep it there.
I’ve asked this question before and you will not get any proof. Because their is none. They will just show you a young guy who blocked all his E2 and ended up with bone loss. This guy has nothing to do with a dosage of AI that keeps someone in a healthy range.
DragonBits
Well-Known Member
BUT is high HDL actually a good thing and heart protective?
A whole lot of studies have called that into question.
Like "
Good' cholesterol mutation linked to heart disease
Genetic study deals blow to the idea that high levels of HDL cholesterol reduce heart risk.
'Good' cholesterol mutation linked to heart disease
It might be that HDL is actually like grey hair. Grey hair doesn't make you old, it happens when you get old.
Whatever the truth it about HDL and lipids, it's really a whole lot more complicated than it appears to be on the surface.
Stating facts without proof that they are facts is really just stating an opinion.
Tommy Wall
Member
I´m out of this boring thread the never ending discussions about E2 and AI.
Yes your all right!
Yes your all right!
madman
Super Moderator
The Endocrine Role of Estrogens on Human Male Skeleton
Vincenzo Rochira, EldaKara, and Cesare Carani
Exogenous E2 acts in a dose-dependent fashion on male bone since it restores a normal BMD in aromatase-deficient men given at a dose that ensures stable serum E2 levels within the normal male range [40, 113, 114]. A daily dose of E2 lower than 20 μg is usually unable to keep serum E2 within the normal range in these patients. The result is BMD worsening or failure in restoring a normal BMD in men previously treated with higher doses [113] and in naive patients [45], respectively. Similarly, in adult men without genetic diseases involving estrogen pathways, E2 seems to be protective for bone but only when serum levels are above a critical threshold [102]. In cohort studies, this threshold has been settled in-between 15 and 20 pg/mL [115]. By studying the effects of estrogen treatment in an aromatase-deficient man [45], this threshold has been more precisely determined as being around 16 pg/mL (Figure 2). This value has been also confirmed by studies on fracture risk in older men (Figure 2) [102]. Recently Khosla et al. stated that a serum E2 level at least above 25 pg/mL is certainly protective for bone in men (Figure 2) [88]. All these data suggest that serum E2 levels of 20 pg/mL or above are needed for optimal skeletal maturation and achievement of optimal peak bone mass [116]. This threshold is very close to that required also for the epiphyseal closure (Figure 2) [45, 116].
6. Conclusions
Several evidence support the view that estrogens are the main sex steroids involved in processes such as bone maturation, bone mass accrual, and epiphyseal closure in men. Estrogen actions on bone, especially on bone maturation, remained quite unaltered among both gender and species during evolution, thus suggesting a high degree of conservative functions for estrogen that are also confirmed by the high degree of homologies of the aromatase enzyme. Conversely, estrogen actions on other tissues and organs are determinant in ensuring gender differences (e.g., primary and secondary sexual characteristics) and in promoting sexual divergence between the two sexes during evolution. The existence of a threshold level for serum E2 that is necessary for ensuring skeletal maturation and adequate bone size and BMD confirms how complex the way estrogen acts on bone in men is. All these evidence contribute to make the issue of estrogen action on bone a fascinating one in the field of both basic and experimental research and encourage researches in order to find new strategies for the management and treatment of bone diseases related to estrogen deficiency.
Vincenzo Rochira, EldaKara, and Cesare Carani
Exogenous E2 acts in a dose-dependent fashion on male bone since it restores a normal BMD in aromatase-deficient men given at a dose that ensures stable serum E2 levels within the normal male range [40, 113, 114]. A daily dose of E2 lower than 20 μg is usually unable to keep serum E2 within the normal range in these patients. The result is BMD worsening or failure in restoring a normal BMD in men previously treated with higher doses [113] and in naive patients [45], respectively. Similarly, in adult men without genetic diseases involving estrogen pathways, E2 seems to be protective for bone but only when serum levels are above a critical threshold [102]. In cohort studies, this threshold has been settled in-between 15 and 20 pg/mL [115]. By studying the effects of estrogen treatment in an aromatase-deficient man [45], this threshold has been more precisely determined as being around 16 pg/mL (Figure 2). This value has been also confirmed by studies on fracture risk in older men (Figure 2) [102]. Recently Khosla et al. stated that a serum E2 level at least above 25 pg/mL is certainly protective for bone in men (Figure 2) [88]. All these data suggest that serum E2 levels of 20 pg/mL or above are needed for optimal skeletal maturation and achievement of optimal peak bone mass [116]. This threshold is very close to that required also for the epiphyseal closure (Figure 2) [45, 116].
6. Conclusions
Several evidence support the view that estrogens are the main sex steroids involved in processes such as bone maturation, bone mass accrual, and epiphyseal closure in men. Estrogen actions on bone, especially on bone maturation, remained quite unaltered among both gender and species during evolution, thus suggesting a high degree of conservative functions for estrogen that are also confirmed by the high degree of homologies of the aromatase enzyme. Conversely, estrogen actions on other tissues and organs are determinant in ensuring gender differences (e.g., primary and secondary sexual characteristics) and in promoting sexual divergence between the two sexes during evolution. The existence of a threshold level for serum E2 that is necessary for ensuring skeletal maturation and adequate bone size and BMD confirms how complex the way estrogen acts on bone in men is. All these evidence contribute to make the issue of estrogen action on bone a fascinating one in the field of both basic and experimental research and encourage researches in order to find new strategies for the management and treatment of bone diseases related to estrogen deficiency.
Vince Carter
Banned
Yawn...predictable thread has a predictable outcome. Suggest you lock it down @CoastWatcher
@Cataceous I wouldn't accept your unverified claims also so no worries there. Replying to everyone here and then I will send the links in a separate post. The mods can delete them if they see fit. I'm not here to cause any trouble with anyone. Driving estrogen too low is terrible (which is another subject) and you are asking for links of how AI isn't good for you. Those are the links I will provide.
@Gman86 You will feel worse because the body had a substance being given to it that was preventing something from occurring (aromatisation). When you stop the AI it takes awhile for the body to adjust to the 'new normal'. Most men feel worse during that period before they feel better. I do SubQ, to answer your question. Some guys prefer shallow IM. Why is everyone hung up on needle size?? 27's 1/2" make the injections easier but I find some of the oil seeps out of the injection site afterwards. 30's take longer but everything stays inside.
@madman I do enanthate also (it's just what is prescribed where I'm from). Try moving to daily shots. I absolutely promise you it is completely worth the extra hassle. Again, it's not the just low E2 levels that aren't good for you. The AI itself is toxic! It doesn't matter how small the dose is! Crisler was also using HCG and high dose DHEA. If I get back on DHEA my gyno will flare up like crazy. However, I already have high normal levels of DHEA so why take more if I don't need it?
@Speed That message from Crisler was due to something else entirely... and maybe not for the reasons you think....
@tmaxey1 who are you referring to? I'm not loyal to any one particular site. I get info from lots of places. There's a great big Internet outside this one site you know ;-)
@HealthMan you're back! Welcome! Though I thought this was the end of the discussion? ;-)
If you're taking an AI and really think you need it, it's probably because you are obese. If your bodyfat is 15% or less... maybe even as high as 20% or less, you don't need it. If you are over 15%, get yourself under and you definitely won't need it.
Everyone here starts taking T and immediately wants to add other shit to the mix. WHY?? Take JUST the T and nothing else. Figure how the dose that makes you feel the best. Screw the numbers on paper. If you take 10mg daily and feel amazing with a 600ng/dl but then take 20mg daily and feel like shit with a 950ng/dl then what fucking difference does the lab report make? Which dose MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER??
Here's the part that really makes me giggle. And trust me, I laugh at myself because I didn't realize this until recently:
EVERYTHING is BALANCE. We are here to BALANCE and OPTIMIZE. There is a BALANCE between testosterone and estrogen. I'm sure you can all agree on that one. But, even though you might agree, your critical thinking goes down the porcelain when we boost our testosterone to supra optimal levels but try to keep E2 at super low levels. That isn't balance. That's insanity. My E2 levels could be 90 right now for all I know. Who cares? I feel BETTER than I ever felt before and all the weird side effects I used to have while taking an AI are gone.
I will now compile the links. Do as you wish with them.
@Gman86 You will feel worse because the body had a substance being given to it that was preventing something from occurring (aromatisation). When you stop the AI it takes awhile for the body to adjust to the 'new normal'. Most men feel worse during that period before they feel better. I do SubQ, to answer your question. Some guys prefer shallow IM. Why is everyone hung up on needle size?? 27's 1/2" make the injections easier but I find some of the oil seeps out of the injection site afterwards. 30's take longer but everything stays inside.
@madman I do enanthate also (it's just what is prescribed where I'm from). Try moving to daily shots. I absolutely promise you it is completely worth the extra hassle. Again, it's not the just low E2 levels that aren't good for you. The AI itself is toxic! It doesn't matter how small the dose is! Crisler was also using HCG and high dose DHEA. If I get back on DHEA my gyno will flare up like crazy. However, I already have high normal levels of DHEA so why take more if I don't need it?
@Speed That message from Crisler was due to something else entirely... and maybe not for the reasons you think....
@tmaxey1 who are you referring to? I'm not loyal to any one particular site. I get info from lots of places. There's a great big Internet outside this one site you know ;-)
@HealthMan you're back! Welcome! Though I thought this was the end of the discussion? ;-)
If you're taking an AI and really think you need it, it's probably because you are obese. If your bodyfat is 15% or less... maybe even as high as 20% or less, you don't need it. If you are over 15%, get yourself under and you definitely won't need it.
Everyone here starts taking T and immediately wants to add other shit to the mix. WHY?? Take JUST the T and nothing else. Figure how the dose that makes you feel the best. Screw the numbers on paper. If you take 10mg daily and feel amazing with a 600ng/dl but then take 20mg daily and feel like shit with a 950ng/dl then what fucking difference does the lab report make? Which dose MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER??
Here's the part that really makes me giggle. And trust me, I laugh at myself because I didn't realize this until recently:
EVERYTHING is BALANCE. We are here to BALANCE and OPTIMIZE. There is a BALANCE between testosterone and estrogen. I'm sure you can all agree on that one. But, even though you might agree, your critical thinking goes down the porcelain when we boost our testosterone to supra optimal levels but try to keep E2 at super low levels. That isn't balance. That's insanity. My E2 levels could be 90 right now for all I know. Who cares? I feel BETTER than I ever felt before and all the weird side effects I used to have while taking an AI are gone.
I will now compile the links. Do as you wish with them.
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