Can estrogen crash cause desensitization/knock out of the estrogen receptor - lets discuss!

[Flexedup]

Was your prolactin over the reference range?

No it wasn't but I have performed labs during the time I felt best and my prolactin was sitting at 8. Immediately following my estrogen crash, my prolactin jumped to 16. Both blood draws were over 48 hours no intercourse and while fasting. Eventhough my estrogen stabilized quickly following the crash, I still had the "crashed" feeling everyone is mentioning. I found Vitamin B6 to work wonders for it.

 

[Checkdis]

Crashed my e2 almost 3 years ago(i am off armidex i have been for years) i have been on trt for same time(250 mg of test e a week ed injections i have tried every 3.5 eod etc) nothing helped

My e2 sits at 72(e2 was same before)
Dht 141
Free t 605
Total t 2231

My symptoms are just lack of dopamine light headed feeling mentally spaced out

Like e2 is still crashed

I have run a full male hormone panel with my primary physician with everything in check


All these symptoms started after crash

Wanna take 1 mg of estro val injections ed for a month to wake those receptors up would that be too much

The light headed feeling is the only struggle I still experience to this date. And it comes and goes but seems to be more prevalent.

 

[SpyrosB]

You have identical symptoms to me. Except I didn't have stomach cramps.

I told you to read my posts over PM and clearly you have not done so, Tamoxifen and Clomid made my condition severely worse.

To clarify, I was on 120mg T a week, took 25mg of Nolvadex for the same reason you wanted to try it, and developed extremely dry skin, agitation, more hair loss, more muscle atrophy, destroyed my libido permanently, and gave me ED... permanently. Before that, I had all these symptoms, but to a much much less degree. I then used 1 pill of 12.5mg clomifene 1 month later and the same thing happened. I did not put two and two together because at the time I still didn't think this was all possible.

This whole story... how did you not end up figuring out you have overtly sensitised your E2 receptors, quite the opposite from what you are actually speculating. As a result you are constantly cruising in a state of extremely high Estradiol, which actually leads to every symptom you describe, some through estrogen dominance over progesterone (scalp hair loss), others through estrogen dominance over androgens (fatigue, weakness, libido, sexual issues). Estrogen even suppresses sebum production in sufficient amounts, which is why contraceptives help with acne in females - although roaccutane goes the opposite way and attacks androgens. It's also why your brain function is intact and you can keep being a straight A student. Proper Low E would absolutely demolish your ability to study, seeing all the cognitive effects estrogen has on the brain.
And it is in fact the only theory that explains why the higher your E2 goes, the worse you feel.
I've also read about estrogen receptors becoming oversensitive after starvation in breast cancer patients, at which case they used another medication to reset their sensitivity, so there's that to back it up - I'm sure i can find adequate evidence with a bit of looking around. You simply went too hard with the AI, starved your receptors and caused them to reach oversensitivity.

if anyone from this thread is still here and has similar issues, let's discuss this. But you have to be feeling worse each time your E2 goes up. If you're not, then you might actually have low E2, or bad T/E ratio. But let's talk about this anyway because I'm going through a similar Estrogen situation.

Honestly, the comments trying to make this guy seem crazy or that he's imagining and making everything up, are the worst thing one can say to another, and just a clear demonstration of people who have never had something go seriously, seriously wrong in their lives. You cannot fathom the hell of being chronically in this state. Of having everything robbed away from you and not even knowing how or why. Completely out of whack estrogen will seriously make you wish you were D E A D. It might as well be your soul itself. And then people try and tell you you're making it up... Jesus, better not say anything at all.

 

[glob]

This whole story... how did you not end up figuring out you have overtly sensitised your E2 receptors, quite the opposite from what you are actually speculating. As a result you are constantly cruising in a state of extremely high Estradiol, which actually leads to every symptom you describe, some through estrogen dominance over progesterone (scalp hair loss), others through estrogen dominance over androgens (fatigue, weakness, libido, sexual issues). Estrogen even suppresses sebum production in sufficient amounts, which is why contraceptives help with acne in females - although roaccutane goes the opposite way and attacks androgens. It's also why your brain function is intact and you can keep being a straight A student. Proper Low E would absolutely demolish your ability to study, seeing all the cognitive effects estrogen has on the brain.
And it is in fact the only theory that explains why the higher your E2 goes, the worse you feel.
I've also read about estrogen receptors becoming oversensitive after starvation in breast cancer patients, at which case they used another medication to reset their sensitivity, so there's that to back it up - I'm sure i can find adequate evidence with a bit of looking around. You simply went too hard with the AI, starved your receptors and caused them to reach oversensitivity.

if anyone from this thread is still here and has similar issues, let's discuss this. But you have to be feeling worse each time your E2 goes up. If you're not, then you might actually have low E2, or bad T/E ratio. But let's talk about this anyway because I'm going through a similar Estrogen situation.

Honestly, the comments trying to make this guy seem crazy or that he's imagining and making everything up, are the worst thing one can say to another, and just a clear demonstration of people who have never had something go seriously, seriously wrong in their lives. You cannot fathom the hell of being chronically in this state. Of having everything robbed away from you and not even knowing how or why. Completely out of whack estrogen will seriously make you wish you were D E A D. It might as well be your soul itself. And then people try and tell you you're making it up... Jesus, better not say anything at all.

What symptoms you have?

 

[SpyrosB]

What symptoms you have?

Pretty much the same symptoms that are described at every low E thread. You will see some clear differences between nurselyfe's symptoms and every other person's with crashed E. There are many similarities but a few key differences. However, nurselyfe aside, every other person with low E describe near identical symptomatology between them.
Low libido, anhedonia, anxiety and depression but otherwise emotionless, apathy, unable to enjoy life, sexual dysfunction etc. Most present with normal E2 readings.

The other similarity in low E threads is Vitamin_C gaslighting everyone into thinking they're making it all up lmao

Do you have the same issues? I should clarify I haven't caught up to the thread yet I'm only at page 9.

 

[Holland77]

I think I might’ve figured it out guys or at least in my case. It took me coming off testosterone going through anything and everything to reduce my stress in life/fix my ocd and reduce my anxiety and I believe the issue comes down to hpa axis dysfunction/overstimulation, depersonalization, adrenal fatigue, hppd or whatever you want to call it because it’s all the same thing. Obviously crashing your estrogen can cause anxiety, paranoia, a whole host of symptoms but for some of us who are already dealing with this on a daily basis (let alone without hormones thrown in) puts you in a constant state of fight or flight and when your nervous system is constantly overstimulated by any stressors whether it’s external or internal, your hypothalamus has a hard time recognizing the correct hormonal signals. Your hypothalamus is simply trying to regulate your body on a day to day basis because you’re in survival mode and it’s not worrying about correcting hormones because it thinks you’re in danger when you’re not. Why do you think that the people who recovered were the ones who went back to their day to day lives without worrying or stressing. That’s the reason why people like vitamin c, lowe2sucks and simeoni recovered is because they either came off testosterone which can be overstimulating and a nervous system stressor for some or they went back to their day to day lives and worked on their stressors. The other thing is when you deprive hormones for any amount of time the receptors up regulate and we all know that high estrogen is overstimulating so by crashing your estrogen and the subsequent upregulation of receptors just amplified the overstimulation issue to your nervous system. I’ve been dealing with these issues for 7 years now and this last year I’ve finally recovered and its only because I started working on all of my stressors whether it’s caffeine/nicotine addiction and social anxiety(external) or therapy(internal), getting my hormones in order, or even using medication if needed (lamotrigine in my case). The human body is incredibly resilient and I promise that y’all will recover if you just throw everything you can at this issue to reduce your stress, come off and let your body regulate itself and believe in yourself that you’ll get better.

 

[glob]

I think I might’ve figured it out guys or at least in my case. It took me coming off testosterone going through anything and everything to reduce my stress in life/fix my ocd and reduce my anxiety and I believe the issue comes down to hpa axis dysfunction/overstimulation, depersonalization, adrenal fatigue, hppd or whatever you want to call it because it’s all the same thing. Obviously crashing your estrogen can cause anxiety, paranoia, a whole host of symptoms but for some of us who are already dealing with this on a daily basis (let alone without hormones thrown in) puts you in a constant state of fight or flight and when your nervous system is constantly overstimulated by any stressors whether it’s external or internal, your hypothalamus has a hard time recognizing the correct hormonal signals. Your hypothalamus is simply trying to regulate your body on a day to day basis because you’re in survival mode and it’s not worrying about correcting hormones because it thinks you’re in danger when you’re not. Why do you think that the people who recovered were the ones who went back to their day to day lives without worrying or stressing. That’s the reason why people like vitamin c, lowe2sucks and simeoni recovered is because they either came off testosterone which can be overstimulating and a nervous system stressor for some or they went back to their day to day lives and worked on their stressors. The other thing is when you deprive hormones for any amount of time the receptors up regulate and we all know that high estrogen is overstimulating so by crashing your estrogen and the subsequent upregulation of receptors just amplified the overstimulation issue to your nervous system. I’ve been dealing with these issues for 7 years now and this last year I’ve finally recovered and its only because I started working on all of my stressors whether it’s caffeine/nicotine addiction and social anxiety(external) or therapy(internal), getting my hormones in order, or even using medication if needed (lamotrigine in my case). The human body is incredibly resilient and I promise that y’all will recover if you just throw everything you can at this issue to reduce your stress, come off and let your body regulate itself and believe in yourself that you’ll get better.

how long have you been out of trt? what symptoms did you have? also frequent urination?

 

[Holland77]

how long have you been out of trt? what symptoms did you have? also frequent urination?

yup, weight gain only around midsection hard to put on muscle/lack of muscle glycogen constant joint pain. Crippling Fatigue after eating where I wanted to fall sleep and a whole plethora of weird symptoms for years and years with weird reactions to certain foods/supplements that are supposed lower or raise estrogen and or cortisol. I came off for a total of 4 months and now I started again. Used clomid hcg and toremifene and a while I was an anxious mess, coming off it made me realize just how stressed and overstimulated I was while on higher doses. Also used a whole host of adaptogens for stress and adrenal function and I’ve been doing a multitude of other stress reducing methods in my life and worked heavily on my ocd and health anxiety which was the biggest stressor (myself). For the longest time I’d try to find reasons for why I never recovered but had to just stop stressing and let it go and get back to living my life, looking back now that was when I started recovering the most because my body stopped being in a constant state of fight or flight from stressing myself out. I personally believe that a lot of these things have the same underlying mechanisms whether it’s hpa dysfunction/adrenal fatigue, hppa, ptsd, it all comes down to a dysfunction and hyperresponse in the nervous system to stressors and the nervous system is what’s responsible for sensing the responses to hormones which it can’t do when it senses danger (stress) whether that’s internal or external. The lamictal personally really helps with my ocd and overstimulation issues which then contributed to my recovery. I don’t know if that’s the issue with everyone here but that’s personally the way I recovered.

 

[Holland77]

That would also explain why some members low e2 symptoms got worse as they raised the dose of testosterone after crashing because it just increased the issue of overstimulating the nervous system more causing more anxiety which then becomes a vicious cycle

 

[glob]

yup, weight gain only around midsection hard to put on muscle/lack of muscle glycogen constant joint pain. Crippling Fatigue after eating where I wanted to fall sleep and a whole plethora of weird symptoms for years and years with weird reactions to certain foods/supplements that are supposed lower or raise estrogen and or cortisol. I came off for a total of 4 months and now I started again. Used clomid hcg and toremifene and a while I was an anxious mess, coming off it made me realize just how stressed and overstimulated I was while on higher doses. Also used a whole host of adaptogens for stress and adrenal function and I’ve been doing a multitude of other stress reducing methods in my life and worked heavily on my ocd and health anxiety which was the biggest stressor (myself). For the longest time I’d try to find reasons for why I never recovered but had to just stop stressing and let it go and get back to living my life, looking back now that was when I started recovering the most because my body stopped being in a constant state of fight or flight from stressing myself out. I personally believe that a lot of these things have the same underlying mechanisms whether it’s hpa dysfunction/adrenal fatigue, hppa, ptsd, it all comes down to a dysfunction and hyperresponse in the nervous system to stressors and the nervous system is what’s responsible for sensing the responses to hormones which it can’t do when it senses danger (stress) whether that’s internal or external. The lamictal personally really helps with my ocd and overstimulation issues which then contributed to my recovery. I don’t know if that’s the issue with everyone here but that’s personally the way I recovered.

So now you started again testosterone? how is it going? however I fully agree with you that it is a dysregulation of the hpta

 

[Checkdis]

how long have you been out of trt? what symptoms did you have? also frequent urination?

Frequent urination was the symptom which did it for me. I suggest reading everything I went through.

But in the end, not being on anything was what helped me.

And to this day I still have episodes of OAB, I just deal with it differently.

 

[glob]

Frequent urination was the symptom which did it for me. I suggest reading everything I went through.

But in the end, not being on anything was what helped me.

And to this day I still have episodes of OAB, I just deal with it differently.

So now you are off trt? Frequent urination is better?

 

[Holland77]

So now you started again testosterone? how is it going? however I fully agree with you that it is a dysregulation of the hpta

Feeling like my old self again and even better actually now that I have much less stress in my life, am more driven, and have worked through my issues (GAD, OCD, depression, etc) the testosterone only further amplifies that ambition and drive and positive traits whereas before I feel like it was amplifying my issues and causing more stress. That’s why I think it’s an issue with the nervous system and stress because when you’re under constant stress and anxiety your hpa/hpta can become dysregulated and testosterone/other steroids can just amplify that stress causing further dysregulation. Its a double edged sword. It’s kind of meta because stressing about this issue too can further exacerbate it, or at least in my case it did.

 

[glob]

Feeling like my old self again and even better actually now that I have much less stress in my life, am more driven, and have worked through my issues (GAD, OCD, depression, etc) the testosterone only further amplifies that ambition and drive and positive traits whereas before I feel like it was amplifying my issues and causing more stress. That’s why I think it’s an issue with the nervous system and stress because when you’re under constant stress and anxiety your hpa/hpta can become dysregulated and testosterone/other steroids can just amplify that stress causing further dysregulation. Its a double edged sword. It’s kind of meta because stressing about this issue too can further exacerbate it, or at least in my case it did.

I agree with you. what dose of testosterone are you using now? and how often do you inject?

 

[glob]

Feeling like my old self again and even better actually now that I have much less stress in my life, am more driven, and have worked through my issues (GAD, OCD, depression, etc) the testosterone only further amplifies that ambition and drive and positive traits whereas before I feel like it was amplifying my issues and causing more stress. That’s why I think it’s an issue with the nervous system and stress because when you’re under constant stress and anxiety your hpa/hpta can become dysregulated and testosterone/other steroids can just amplify that stress causing further dysregulation. Its a double edged sword. It’s kind of meta because stressing about this issue too can further exacerbate it, or at least in my case it did.

I also experience muscle spasm/twitching when under stress

 

[Holland77]

24mg a day and I still have frequent urination but only cause I’m on natural diuretics for high blood pressure

 

[Holland77]

I’ve been reading a lot into the NEM stress response and when your body is in a constant state of fight or flight/stress such as with most people nowadays, it gets overwhelmed and switches to your primal system to survive(limbic system) same case for depersonalization. When this happens your brain shuts off it’s systems for emotional processing and normal regulation of body functions and overactivates the areas of the brain responsible for logic and planning to escape the threat. problem is after the threat is gone you realize you feel off you start looking for logical reasons why and this causes more anxiety and keeps the cycle and dysregulation going. That’s why a lot of men reported after crashing and not recovering that their stress tolerance was far lower than before is because they’re still in fight or flight mode looking for a threat when there is none. Same happened with me. I’m a total hypochondriac with health anxiety and when I get overwhelmed with stress I go into a psychotic like state where I start obsessing and stressing that there’s something wrong with me when there’s not. Sorry if this was redundant.

 

[Vince]

I’ve been reading a lot into the NEM stress response and when your body is in a constant state of fight or flight/stress such as with most people nowadays, it gets overwhelmed and switches to your primal system to survive(limbic system) same case for depersonalization. When this happens your brain shuts off it’s systems for emotional processing and normal regulation of body functions and overactivates the areas of the brain responsible for logic and planning to escape the threat. problem is after the threat is gone you realize you feel off you start looking for logical reasons why and this causes more anxiety and keeps the cycle and dysregulation going. That’s why a lot of men reported after crashing and not recovering that their stress tolerance was far lower than before is because they’re still in fight or flight mode looking for a threat when there is none. Same happened with me. I’m a total hypochondriac with health anxiety and when I get overwhelmed with stress I go into a psychotic like state where I start obsessing and stressing that there’s something wrong with me when there’s not. Sorry if this was redundant.

Have you ever read about high dose melatonin. How it improves the brain in responds to anxiety.

 

[Holland77]

Have you ever read about high dose melatonin. How it improves the brain in responds to anxiety.

That’s actually really interesting, I’ll have to read more into it and try it myself. I like to go the more natural route myself when i can when it comes down to mental health.

 

[Wuinz]

Hey all, I’m coming from a Reddit thread/discord. A guy (Sweaty_Literature_69) posted a theory about how AI induced low E2 symptoms, PFS and PSSD are pretty much the same. It all comes down to estrogen receptors being desensitized. And it’s not oversensitized receptors leading to high E2 symptoms. A clear indicator of this is aching/painful joints. High E2 does not typically show this symptom. Emotional numbness is another one. Blood work is all normal, but your estrogen receptors are so downregulated that you feel low E2.

How did this happen? In the AI cases people deprived their receptors of E2 leading to estrogen receptor upregulation. And then when you come off the AI it leads to a sudden burst of estrogen, downregulating your receptors. Your estrogen stays up/normal but your receptors’ sensitivity don’t change because of a lack of rapid hormonal change. And then it gets stuck. Maybe it’s a genetic thing or maybe it’s due to how quickly the estrogen came back. Regardless, the victims here suffer from estrogen receptor persistent down regulation.

How do we fix this? We have had proof from this very thread. You need to take estrogen directly. You need to abruptly raise your estrogen (also taking T and HCG to protect androgen function) for a few months. This will kickstart your receptors, allowing them to self regulate and regulate other receptors. @nurselyfe please try this.