I’m 56 years old. I’ve been on TRT for 10 years. 200 mg testosterone cypionate injected once a week. About a year ago my doctor put me on Nandrolone as well, 100 mg injected once a week with the test. My six month lab work usually shows a total testosterone count of around 1700. I have pretty severe issues with insomnia and think it might be due to the high T levels. After talking to my TRT doctor, he suggested I cut my testosterone dosage in half, from 200 mg per week to 100 mg per week to see if my sleep improves. I also completely stopped taking Nandrolone. I started this new protocol three weeks ago. Within two weeks, I started exhibiting severe symptoms which I believe to be withdrawal from both completely stoping the nandrolone and cutting my test dosage in half. Brain fog, dizziness, lack of energy and libido, anxiety, depression. I don’t talk to my TRT doctor for another week so if anybody out there has any comments/suggestions I sure would appreciate it. I believe I should not have quit the Nandrolone cold turkey and I should have more gradually cut back on the test…
t_spacemonkey
Well-Known Member
i struggle to with anxiety, and too much with T will throw me off for sure. not sure if cutting those would cause anxiety or is it just a coincidence? you could skip 1 weekly dose of T to reduce it even quicker. I would also advise against 1x week injections even on 100mg. you probably better of splitting it into 2-3x. also, nandrolone d. takes months to clear form system so you need to be patient here. try adding some pregnenolone + magnesium for the anxiety
madman
Super Moderator
Too bad you were started on a high-dosed TRT protocol from the get go.
Sounds like the standard TRT cookie cutter protocol high dose T 200 mg/week with an AI thrown in to boot most of those run of the mill clinics let alone some in the know start men on.
You never mentioned using an AI but even than such weekly dose of T would have most men's TT/FT levels through the roof let alone many would be struggling to manage elevated hematocrit.
Many men are still hitting high trough (7 days post-injection) TT/FT levels on such dose which would mean peak TT/FT levels are absurdly high 2-3 days every week.
Not sure where your true trough TT, FT, and estradiol levels sat let alone critical blood markers such as RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit as you did not post a full set of labs.
Keep in mind although TT is important to know FT is what truly matters as it is the active unbound fraction of T responsible for the positive effects.
If one feels great with no sides and overall blood markers are healthy than I see no issue sticking with it.
Seeing as you recently added nandrolone at 100 mg/week you just increase your chances of driving up your RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit further.
Again I have no idea where such blood markers sit as you never posted labs other than your absurdly high TT 1700 ng/dL.
Even then have no idea how many days post-injection blood was drawn let alone what assay was used which is critical especially when using nandrolone with T as you would need to have your TT tested using the most accurate assay (LC/MS-MS) otherwise your results will be skewed when using the standard immunoassays.
Running high/absurdly high TT/FT levels can easily have a negative impact on sleep as testosterone has a tonic effect on the CNS and can easily make one feel amped up.
Your TT/FT levels were most likely already very high then you added in the ND which can also amp up the CNS.
Having too high FT can be just as bad as having too low FT in many cases.
If anything when you added in the ND you should have lowered your weekly T dose.
Bad move cutting your dose in half off the hop let alone stopping the ND at the same time.
It is a given that you are going to experience a bumpy ride as T/N levels are decreasing.
You are going from a high-end dose 200 mg T/week--->standard dose 100 mg/week.
That is a drastic change and your TT/FT levels are going to come down a lot over the following weeks.
Would have been better to gradually lower the dose.
Much harder coming down than going up.
You are only 3 weeks in and it will take 4-6 weeks until blood levels stabilize.
Hang in there as things will level out soon enough and than you can see where your true trough TT, FT and estradiol levels sit on your current dose 100 mg T/week.
Even than you would most likely fair better splitting your dose and injecting 50 mg T every 3.5 days.
Keep in mind it will take 3-4 months to see a drop in your RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit due to the lifespan of RBCs.
Depending on how you feel and where your T levels sit on such protocol you may very well need to bring your dose of T back up some but I would not even attempt doing such until you give your new protocol a fighting chance which means 12 weeks on such dose.
When first starting TRT or tweaking a protocol (dose T/injection frequency) hormones will be in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks when using TC/TE) and during this time it is common for many to experience ups/down as the body is trying to adjust.
Even than once blood levels have stabilize it will take a few months for the body to adapt to your new set-point and this is the critical time period when one should truly gauge whether the protocol was a success or failure.
Too many get caught up tweaking a protocol every 6 weeks because they do not feel good and end up paying the price due to lacking the understanding of how exogenous T works.
I have been stressing this for years on the forum.
Please be patient and put in the time needed to truly see the outcome.
I’ve never heard of anyone “withdrawing” from nandrolone, and feeling worse when stopping it. Plus, deca basically has a built in taper mechanism in it. Even tho u discontinued it, it’s still gonna be slowly trickling out of ur system for a while.
I would attribute the way ur feeling to going from 300mg of total androgens per week, to 100mg of total androgens per week. That’s gonna result in a drastic difference in neurotransmitter activity. Simply changing one‘s protocol can result in some guys feeling very off for a while. Overall I highly doubt ur experiencing any withdrawal type symptoms from nandrolone tho. Not saying it’s impossible, I’ve just never heard of anyone experiencing these types of symptoms when discontinuing nandrolone
I would attribute the way ur feeling to going from 300mg of total androgens per week, to 100mg of total androgens per week. That’s gonna result in a drastic difference in neurotransmitter activity. Simply changing one‘s protocol can result in some guys feeling very off for a while. Overall I highly doubt ur experiencing any withdrawal type symptoms from nandrolone tho. Not saying it’s impossible, I’ve just never heard of anyone experiencing these types of symptoms when discontinuing nandrolone
Thank you very much for the information. Some of it I did not completely understand but I appreciate your response. I’m going to talk to my TRT doctor next week, Dr. Rand McClain out of California. He is pretty well known so I’m hoping his advice will be solid. I quit the Nandrolone cold turkey about 4 weeks ago. I believe the withdrawal symptoms I am experiencing are from that. I’m going to try to ride that out because I really don’t want to be on the Nandrolone anymore (hopefully the withdrawal from that won’t last too much longer). Dr. Rand added it to my regime because I have a lot of joint pain from lifting. I cut back on the test from 200 to 100 mg two weeks ago so I don’t think the withdrawal symptoms are from that (but maybe they are as well as withdrawal from the nandrolone). I’m going to bring the test back up to 200 mg and then gradually taper off. I’m also going to take your advice and do two injections a week instead of one. I do take an AI 48 hours after my injection (1mg anastrozole). I definitely think that the TT of 1700 is way too high. My FT was 53. I believe this is the root cause of my sleeping issues. I don’t have sleep apnea. Also, I do therapeutic phlebotomy’s every six weeks and my hemoglobin is usually only around 15 as a result. Thanks again for your input and any additional information based on what I just told you would be appreciated. Craig
Thank you very much for the advice. I’m not sure what is causing the withdrawal symptoms, the test or the Nandrolone. I did some research and supposedly Nandrolone withdrawal is a real thing. I am going to bring my test levels back up to 200 and then gradually taper off. I talk to my TRT doctor, Dr. Rand McClain out of California, early next week. Hopefully he’ll help me get this straightened out because I am in pretty bad shape right now.
madman
Super Moderator
Trust me when I tell you that the reason you feel shitty is that you cut your T dose in half and it is going to take 4-6 weeks for blood levels to stabilize due to the half-life.
You are only 2-3 weeks in and it is expected that you will experience a bumpy ride as it is a drastic drop going from 200--->100 T mg/week.
Your hormones are in flux and T levels are declining.
TT/FT levels were sky-high on 200 mg T/week.
Makes sense now that he is treating you as he is known for putting men on that cookie cutter high-end TRT dosed protocol of 200 mg T injected once weekly with an AI thrown in to control the elevated estradiol let alone maintaining it in a specific range.
Most are running around with absurdly high TT/FT levels yet the goal is to keep everyone's estradiol in the 20s.
Never been a fan of letting T run wild yet e2 needs to stay in a specific range let alone getting caught up on that donating blood frequently merry go round which is a surefire way to crash you ferritin which can open up another can of worms.
All that said if one truly feels great on such protocol, blood markers are healthy, minus any sides I see no issue.
Do what you feel is best for you.
Sad fact of the matter is that many men can feel great running much lower TT/FT levels while avoiding the use of an AI let alone avoiding getting caught up on that donating/donating too frequently merry go round.
Express your concerns as he is your doctor.
Would be interesting to see your labs on 200 mg T once weekly before you added the nandrolone.
Where did your TT, FT and estradiol sit at true trough (7 days post-injection)?
What is your SHBG and have you ever tested your ferritin?
Need to rethink that donating every 6 weeks routine.
Really? I can’t find anything about nandrolone withdrawal being a thing. Plus, just think about it logically, what aspect of nandrolone would cause someone to feel withdrawal symptoms when discontinuing, vs feeling withdrawal feelings coming off of test completely? Ive been on nandrolone, and researched nandrolone for years now, and I really don’t see how discontinuing it abruptly could result is withdrawal type symptoms, like coming down from a recreational drug.
Now on the other hand, I’ve heard many times of guys feeling crappy when discontinuing test completely. I don’t think this is due to a “withdrawal“ effect tho. I think it’s just due to all the amazing things that test does to mood/ well being/ energy, etc, and not having enough of it will cause the opposite effects. Just like someone would feel abruptly going from 300mg of total androgens to 100mg of total androgens.
Did u also discontinue ur ai the same time as when u lowered ur test dose down to 100mg and dropped the nandrolone completely? if not, low E2 could be a factor here
im just curious, what made u want to drop the nandrolone in the first place? Was it causing u a negative symptoms? Did it do anything beneficial as far as ur joints go?
I agree with madman. Donating blood every 6 weeks is a sure fire way to crash iron levels, for most guys, which can result in a host of issues. Mainly with the thyroid. The thyroid needs adequate iron levels to function properly, and the thyroid isn’t called the master gland for no reason. It’s because every single cell in the body has a thyroid hormone receptor, and the thyroid is responsible for some of the most vital functions of the body. If ur thyroid is out of whack, it’s going to be extremely hard to feel good.
If I were u I wouldn‘t bother going back up to 200mg and then tapering back down. Waste of time imo. I would simply just start taking around 150mg/ week of test now, up ur dose to 200mg/ week again, split ur injections to twice per week, drop ur ai, stop donating blood, and assess how u feel after 6 weeks or so.
Dr rand seems like he knows his stuff, for the most part. I’ve followed his stuff for years. He’ll most likely want to keep u on an ai, as he loves prescribing them. I personally would try to dial in ur protocol first without an ai, but to each their own obv
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Thanks again for your input, I really appreciate it. I decided to drop the Nandrolone because my total testosterone levels were running 2000+ when I was taking it along with 200 mg test per week. I think that is insanely high. I’m having serious problems sleeping and I think maybe that is the reason why. I would like to get my total testosterone number down to 1000 or less. That’s why I discontinued the Nandrolone and cut the test from 200 to 100 mg per week. I think doing this is what’s causing these horrible withdrawal symptoms during the day. As for donating blood every six weeks, I do that because my hemoglobin levels get awful high (17 to 18) if I don’t. I will definitely ask Dr. Rand when I talk to him next week about ferritin levels. I will also ask him about how to go about lowering test levels (either doing 150 mg per week test or going back up to 200 then very gradually dropping down). I’ll also ask him about discontinuing the AI once I get my test levels down to 1000 or less. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me. The insomnia I’ve been dealing with the last few months has been debilitating. I’ve been to the ER twice, I’m taking sleeping pills to get me through the night, and anxiety medication to get me through the days. Hopefully once I get my test levels down to a more normal level, my sleep will improve and I can taper off these medications and get my life back to normal. Craig
Ya when messing with 300mg of total androgens it gets harder to dial in for sure. Especially if ur not extremely dedicated and diligent with ur diet, exercise routine and other lifestyle factors that affect overall health. U really have to know what ur doing in the diet, hydration and overall health department if u want to feel good while concurrently using the amount of androgens u were, imo. That level of androgens is not for the average Joe, again imo.
For a guy like u, u should be fine using say around 125-150mg of test per week, and if u want the joint support of nandrolone, without the side effects u seemed to have been experiencing, mainly with sleep and anxiety, I would stick to somewhere around 50-75mg of nandrolone, alongside 100-150mg of test max.
As far as sleep and anxiety goes, easily the best thing for both of those things, ime, is supplemental magnesium. If ur not already taking it, I highly suggest that u start. I personally like taking magnesium chloride liquid, and putting it in my carbonated mineral waters and getting a slow trickle of magnesium throughout the day, but any quality magnesium product should do the trick. I suggest something like magnesium malate or magnesium glycinate
for most guys a HGB level of 17-18 isn’t going to be anything to be worried about. What does ur RBC level usually come back at? I’ll link a pic of my latest RBC, HGB and HCT levels. My HGB is almost 17, but my RBC’s are right at the top of the range, but still technically in range. That’s pretty optimal, imo. And HGB is just the oxygen carrying protein on a red blood cell. Blood cells carrying a lot of oxygen is obv a good thing. But balance is key with everything. As long as ur HGB levels weren’t going higher than 18, I wouldn’t have been donating every 6 weeks like u were. And now obv ur RBC‘s are gonna be a lot lower going from 200-300mg of total androgens, down to 150mg/ week, or even less. So I would definitely take a break from donating for a while if I were u
and the only reason ur total T level went above 2000 is because u had the non sensitive total T panel done, and it’s not sensitive enough to decipher between and test and nandrolone molecule, and just added them together. But I still think lowering ur dosages is warranted, as I don’t think many guys would do well longterm running 300mg of total androgens per week. Not many guys have the know how, or will power/ motivation to optimize all other lifestyle factors, as far as health goes, to feel good and to function optimally using dosages like that
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Thanks again for the response. I REALLY appreciate it. I take 1mg anastrozole per week (48 hours after my injection) as per Dr. Rand‘s recommendation. I do injections every Monday and I just did a 200 mg test injection. I’m going to do that for a couple more weeks until I’m feeling better then gradually taper down to 125 or 150 mg per week as per your advice. I’m also going to start splitting the injections into two per week as per your advice. I’m also going to confer with Dr. Rand this coming week to get his opinion on that protocol. I’ll also ask him about the six week phlebotomies and if I really should keep doing that or not. Again, I think lowing my overall T levels will help with my insomnia problem, or at least I hope so. I’ve been on TRT for over 10 years and started developing sleeping problems shortly there after. I never really connected the dots as far as high T levels and sleep problems until just recently…
I stopped taking the Nandrolone about 3 1/2 weeks ago. I started having withdrawal symptoms a week ago. What was your experience from stoping taking it? How long did your withdrawal symptoms last? I’m going to try to ride it out since i’ve already been through a week of withdrawal. A semi-nauseous type of brain fog and anxiety are the main symptoms. I’m hoping I’m almost through the withdrawal but don’t really know. I also cut my testosterone from 200 mg to 100 mg shortly after stopping the Nandrolone which I now realize was a huge mistake. I just bumped my testosterone back up to 200 to hopefully smooth things out. Once I get past the withdrawal I’m going to stay off the Nandrolone and gradually cut back the testosterone to 125 or 150 mg. The reason I’ve stopped the Nandrolone and reduced the test is because I’m having severe problems sleeping. I’m thinking the high T Levels (close to 2000) is what’s causing this. I’ll talk to my TRT doctor this coming week and hopefully get some more definitive answers and advice. Thanks for your input.
And u don’t think theres a chance that these symptoms simply came from ur body adjusting to much less androgens in its system?
any idea what mechanism of action from nandrolone could cause said withdrawal symptoms vs someone lowering their test dosage, or stopping exogenous test all together? Ive researched nandrolone extensively over the years, and I just can’t think of one difference that nandrolone possess, compared to test, that would cause “withdrawal“ symptoms from discontinuing it or lowering its dosage. I really think what u guys are experiencing is ur body trying to adjust to an overall decreased androgen load, as well as ur bodies trying to deal with abrupt drastic hormone fluctuations, and nothing to do with nandrolone specifically
You could be absolutely right. You’re obviously very knowledgeable about the subject matter. I just don’t know. I’ll talk to my doctor this week about it. I do know I want to stop the Nandrolone and just stay on a lower dosage of test. I think 300 mg of androgens per week is WAY too much. I have to believe this is causing my sleep issues. I first just have to get through this withdrawal phase. The brain fog and anxiety is pretty bad during the day. My regular doctor has put me on an anti-anxiety medication that helps take the edge off but it’s still pretty bad. I hate taking meds like that but feel I have no choice until I start feeling better. I also have a newfound skepticism about my TRT doctor. I’m starting to believe it’s irresponsible that he would recommend someone like me to take such high dosages of these substances. Based on my research and the quality opinions of people like you and others, I’m now beginning to see things a little differently regarding hormone therapy…
I’ve heard Rand state on you tube videos that a guy has to stay above 800-850 total to derive benefits from TRT….considering he advocates one injection per week that means you are going to be supra-physiological most of the time….some guys tolerate that, others don’t (I am in the DONT camp). He seems pretty knowledgeable from what I can see, but he also comes from a “bodybuilding” culture that seems to encourage higher dosing protocols and he’s dead set on keeping E2 in a tight range with AIs….I like to keep things simple, and if you are having insomnia with TRT it is kind of one of the leading indicators your dose is too high for your genetics / physiology….my 2 cents…
Systemlord
Member
The phlebotomy are at least contributing to your symptoms, take it from someone who used to get monthly phlebotomies.
So u get negatives on nandrolone, as well as negatives from stopping it? and the only benefit u receive from taking it is joint pain relief?
what dosage do u take per week? And what’s ur test dose when u add it in?
not trying to argue or make u defend urself or anything. Just genuinely curious
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I agree. Thanks for the input
thank you sir for your opinion. I appreciate it
Thanks for your comments. I’ve been getting the phlebotomies for years and I’ve never had any side effects. The symptoms I’m dealing with started just after stopping the nandrolone and cutting back on the test. I have to believe this is the cause.
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