Nandrolone Experiences

[ivkonst2017]

@ivkonst2017, I know you believe in IM only. In your experience, what is the minimum needle length you can use and still get into muscle? I think 1/2" in the thigh would work, but wonder what you have found.

I found that IM with 1/2 inch length produced for me similar total t values as sub-q. I was around 28 percent bkdy fat at the moment. So its a bit tricky with the BF how deep the needle goes. Now Im leaner, but I dont wanna try things and mess around.

For me the perfect size needle for IM is 3/4 inch 27g.

About your issue, sorry that I dont remember but what is your progesteron value? My provider believes most folks who cannot tolerate optimal amounts of testosterone have sub-optimal progesteron. He gives as optimal for most men 1-4nmol/l but still vastly varying according to receptors sensitivity. Basically he determines whether progesterone is ok by the symptoms. According to him even guys with less than 1nmol/l have enough for their needs if the tolerate optimal amounts of test and/or thyroid.

 

[Zibernet]

I have some nandrolone questions along with a few peripheral questions for a few guys.

Background
When not TRT-optimized, I feel tired, lethargic, run down. When on certain forms of TRT, I feel a lot better, while other forms of TRT cause me a number of undesirable experiences, the worst of which is migraines. On a call with Defy recently, we discussed considering low dose nandrolone to add to a form of TRT that I tolerate. The logic was that one possible explanation for my headaches is the downstream metabolites from testosterone. Thus, nandrolone may provide some TRT benefit without the headaches. I have since learned that there are a ton of potential issues with nandrolone, so I am treading pretty lightly.

Questions
@Nelson Vergel, I know you did well on nandrolone for a long time. Do you think it impacted your libido in any negative way? Why did you eventually decide to stop? I have also read some of your posts on trimix. I don't use that product, but have a question on mixing oils. I can't imagine there is any issue with mixing nandrolone in grapeseed along with Test Cyp in sesame or other oil in a syringe (not mixing them in a vial, but in a syringe for a single injection)?

@Cataceous, I know you (very briefly) gave nandrolone a try. Did you do it IM or SC? I know there is a lot of debate on IM vs. SC Test injections. I fall into the camp that SC works fine. I think I saw one, old study on SC nandrolone, but didn't read it carefully. For those that successfully use nandrolone, is there any community consensus on IM vs. SC?

@ivkonst2017, I know you believe in IM only. In your experience, what is the minimum needle length you can use and still get into muscle? I think 1/2" in the thigh would work, but wonder what you have found.

Sidebar
I have read some of the threads on shelf life of testosterone. There has been a lot of discussion about potency and sterility. I have a vial of Test Cyp from Olympia pharmacy that was prescribed in 2017 or 2018. Unfortunately, I can't remember the oil. In any case, I barely touched it back then. I have had headache issues in the past with injections, most recently even with very low dose enanthate. I decided to give the expired Test Cyp a try at low doses. Interestingly, I tolerated it reasonably well. It felt more mellow than enanthate. If it lost potency, it has not lost so much that it does not provide benefit. I have seen a noticeable bump in energy. I cannot recommend doing this, as there could be sterility issues. That said, I can attest that even after several years, it seems to maintain is efficacy. Therefore, I am considering low dose Test Cyp along with very low dose nandrolone for a little while. Using them together may allow me to use low doses of both.

Migraines happen when my test dose is too high, from high BP.
Nandrolone will cause an even higher BP, and once you have injected it you will be shut down for a while, and forced to inject testosterone for that while to compensate.
Be ready.

 

[Fortunate]

@Zibernet, appreciate your input. I suspect just about everything I have tried shuts me down, maybe with the exception of Natesto. I am a big proponent of Natesto, but since I have been paying close attention to my symptoms, I recently noticed feeling tired on Natesto. I use hCG along with any other form of TRT, and while I was feeling really tired on Natesto, I was on Empower's hCG. Typically, I use Pregnyl. I suspected that the hCG was not effective and may have been the reason for the fatigue, but all that is a digression from the topic.

To provide a small data point for anyone on this thread, I skimmed a lot of the anecdotal experiences on nandrolone, and like @DS3 pointed out, I concluded that there is a huge variation on how one may react to nandrolone, and I would not know how I might react to it until I gave it a trial. My primary reason for considering it was that I would like the full benefit of TRT without getting headaches. Nandrolone also seems to improve musculoskeletal pain in some, which would be a nice bonus.

So, I decided to give it a trial. It has been very short so far. I started with a small dose of 10mg. I tolerated it fine, so since then, I have been using 15mg of nandrolone mixed with 10mg of test cypionate every other day. So far, I have good energy and don't think it is causing headaches. I have not checked blood pressure, but I don't feel like I am retaining fluid.

I went down this path with some trepidation, but at the end of the day, I am seeking improved quality of life with minimal side effects. If it does not go well, I plan to use some other for of TRT to compensate for the amplified shut down nandrolone may cause.

 

[JimGainz]

@Zibernet, appreciate your input. I suspect just about everything I have tried shuts me down, maybe with the exception of Natesto. I am a big proponent of Natesto, but since I have been paying close attention to my symptoms, I recently noticed feeling tired on Natesto. I use hCG along with any other form of TRT, and while I was feeling really tired on Natesto, I was on Empower's hCG. Typically, I use Pregnyl. I suspected that the hCG was not effective and may have been the reason for the fatigue, but all that is a digression from the topic.

To provide a small data point for anyone on this thread, I skimmed a lot of the anecdotal experiences on nandrolone, and like @DS3 pointed out, I concluded that there is a huge variation on how one may react to nandrolone, and I would not know how I might react to it until I gave it a trial. My primary reason for considering it was that I would like the full benefit of TRT without getting headaches. Nandrolone also seems to improve musculoskeletal pain in some, which would be a nice bonus.

So, I decided to give it a trial. It has been very short so far. I started with a small dose of 10mg. I tolerated it fine, so since then, I have been using 15mg of nandrolone mixed with 10mg of test cypionate every other day. So far, I have good energy and don't think it is causing headaches. I have not checked blood pressure, but I don't feel like I am retaining fluid.

I went down this path with some trepidation, but at the end of the day, I am seeking improved quality of life with minimal side effects. If it does not go well, I plan to use some other for of TRT to compensate for the amplified shut down nandrolone may cause.

How is it going?

My current thoughts on Nandralone for guys who have issues adding it to TRT may be related to overall drop in SHGB which frees more Testosterone and can throw T/E out of balance. One approach to Nandralone/ TRT is to lower the Testosterone amount - maybe 20-30% while keeping Nandralone at the prescribed amount or thereabouts. You don’t need to have it 50% lower than Testosterone. Guys have have been taking steroids for years and would run a low dose “Test base” to the anabolic stack to keep things in order.

I am going to try this myself - always seeking the minimum effective dose - will run T at 70mg and Deca at 100 mg / week and will assess sides / labs etc. (will be a few months but I’ll post back)

 

[Fortunate]

I have tried nandrolone on two occasions. Didn’t like either experience, but did not run it for very long.

 

[Gman86]

How is it going?

My current thoughts on Nandralone for guys who have issues adding it to TRT may be related to overall drop in SHGB which frees more Testosterone and can throw T/E out of balance. One approach to Nandralone/ TRT is to lower the Testosterone amount - maybe 20-30% while keeping Nandralone at the prescribed amount or thereabouts. You don’t need to have it 50% lower than Testosterone. Guys have have been taking steroids for years and would run a low dose “Test base” to the anabolic stack to keep things in order.

I am going to try this myself - always seeking the minimum effective dose - will run T at 70mg and Deca at 100 mg / week and will assess sides / labs etc. (will be a few months but I’ll post back)

Is SHBG dropping while adding in nandrolone a common thing? I don’t remember my SHBG decreasing when I added in nandrolone

Also have to keep in mind that nandrolone slightly increases the aromatization rate of test into E2. It also has been known to sensitive E2 and prolactin receptors. That’s why it’s such a tricky combo with test, since test is one of the compounds that increase E2 and prolactin the most. I’ve been researching a lot lately about DHT derivatives and it seems like guys do considerably better when using a dht derivative, like primobolan or masteron, when using a test/ nandrolone combo. The dht derivative keeps E2 and prolactin down and not only decreases subjective side effects, but also objective side effects, like bloat/ water retention, and can also help keep BP down. I assume due to keeping water retention down

Turns out that Arnold’s famous steroid stack was just 3-4 Dianabol per day, and around 1000mg of primobolan per week, and that’s it. And that was actually a very popular stack back in his day with a lot of guys. Along with nandrolone only cycles. But a lot of them would use a dht derivative along with any highly aromatizing compounds. Possibly why gyno wasn’t really a thing much back then. And don’t think they used ai’s back then either. Obv certain dht derivatives aren’t legal in most places, but I’ve come across a ton of anecdotes of guys on TRT using very low dose dht derivatives, to control E2 and prolactin, and having amazing results subjectively. Just some food for thought.

Also just remember that nandrolone only leads to dry solid gains. Nobody on nandrolone only is getting bloated and experiencing a lot of water weight. The water weight and bloat, and most likely all the subjective/ mental/ sexual side effects come from the E2 and prolactin of test. Nandrolone amplifies the E2 and prolactin that test produces, and that’s where the issues stem from. It’s the combo of test with nandrolone, not nandrolone itself. Test and nandrolone can definitely work together, I’m currently on both myself, but they’re pretty much a match made in hell, in regards to the effects that come from putting them together

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Nandrolone amplifies the E2 and prolactin that test produces, and that’s where the issues stem from.

Where have you read that?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I know you did well on nandrolone for a long time. Do you think it impacted your libido in any negative way? Why did you eventually decide to stop? I have also read some of your posts on trimix. I don't use that product, but have a question on mixing oils. I can't imagine there is any issue with mixing nandrolone in grapeseed along with Test Cyp in sesame or other oil in a syringe (not mixing them in a vial, but in a syringe for a single injection)?

I decided to stop due to blood pressure and decreased HDL. Not a compound to be on forever. I used it on and off for 15 years.
There is no issue mixing oils.
Libido was high while on nandrolone. Higher free T and probably some central effect of having an average of 300-400 mg per week of total androgens may have something to do with it. I was also younger and had more energy, which accounts for higher libido for me.

 

[Gman86]

Where have you read that?

I’ve just heard Taeian Clark talk about it. I don’t agree with all of his ideas and suggestions, in regards to hormones, but I haven’t come across anyone else that has studied nandrolone as much as he has, so I tend to trust his views on nandrolone over anyone else’s. At least until I find someone that has studied nandrolone more than he has.

It seems to be common knowledge with experts in the hormone field that nandrolone increases the aromatization rate of testosterone into E2, but Taeian is the only source that I’ve come across that says that nandrolone also sensitizes the E2 and prolactin receptors to any E2 and prolactin in ur system. He’s cited studies referencing this in his fb group.

 

[Cataceous]

...
It seems to be common knowledge with experts in the hormone field that nandrolone increases the aromatization rate of testosterone into E2, but Taeian is the only source that I’ve come across that says that nandrolone also sensitizes the E2 and prolactin receptors to any E2 and prolactin in ur system. He’s cited studies referencing this in his fb group.

However, in acting as a progestin, nandrolone is expected to down-regulate estrogen receptors. It would be helpful if you could link to some of those studies here. By what mechanism is nandrolone supposed to be increasing aromatization? What exactly does it mean to sensitize E2 receptors?

 

[Gman86]

However, in acting as a progestin, nandrolone is expected to down-regulate estrogen receptors. It would be helpful if you could link to some of those studies here. By what mechanism is nandrolone supposed to be increasing aromatization? What exactly does it mean to sensitize E2 receptors?

I would assume E2 receptors being more sensitive would be like insulin receptors being more sensitive in an insulin sensitive person compared to a person that’s insulin resistant.

Not sure the mechanism by which nandrolone increases a person’s aromatization rate. Taeian Clark claims that he’s read studies showing this, as well as vigorous Steve has said the same. That he’s read studies showing this.

With nandrolone being a progestin, it seems like it attaches to progesterone receptors and elicits a very mild progesterogenic effect, similar to what DHN does compared to DHT, as well as possibly occupying progesterone receptors, blocking bioidentical progesterone from attaching to these receptors and carrying out the proper functions of progesterone

 

[Cataceous]

I would assume E2 receptors being more sensitive would be like insulin receptors being more sensitive in an insulin sensitive person compared to a person that’s insulin resistant.
...

In actuality, the component of insulin resistance associated with receptors simply refers to down-regulation[R], i.e. decreasing numbers of receptors. So effectively you are claiming that nandrolone up-regulates estrogen receptors. But progestins do the opposite. So I think definitive references are needed to support this claim.

...
Not sure the mechanism by which nandrolone increases a person’s aromatization rate. Taeian Clark claims that he’s read studies showing this, as well as vigorous Steve has said the same. That he’s read studies showing this.

Then surely you can link to at least one study. I'm not saying it's wrong at this point, but I have to wonder how aromatization can be increased with a steroid that's androgenic and progestogenic. This would be relative to hormones with purer forms of either property, such as testosterone or progesterone. In fact pure progesterone has some aromatase-inhibiting ability.

...
With nandrolone being a progestin, it seems like it attaches to progesterone receptors and elicits a very mild progesterogenic effect, similar to what DHN does compared to DHT, as well as possibly occupying progesterone receptors, blocking bioidentical progesterone from attaching to these receptors and carrying out the proper functions of progesterone

This was being argued in another thread. Nandrolone has a relative binding affinity for the progesterone receptor that is perhaps 20% of progesterone's affinity. However, so far nobody has offered definitive evidence that nandrolone's effects are weaker once it is bound. There is one parameter of activity in one animal study that is lower, but it will take more than that to decide the issue.

 

[tareload]

In actuality, the component of insulin resistance associated with receptors simply refers to down-regulation[R], i.e. decreasing numbers of receptors. So effectively you are claiming that nandrolone up-regulates estrogen receptors. But progestins do the opposite. So I think definitive references are needed to support this claim.

Then surely you can link to at least one study. I'm not saying it's wrong at this point, but I have to wonder how aromatization can be increased with a steroid that's androgenic and progestogenic. This would be relative to hormones with purer forms of either property, such as testosterone or progesterone. In fact pure progesterone has some aromatase-inhibiting ability.

This was being argued in another thread. Nandrolone has a relative binding affinity for the progesterone receptor that is perhaps 20% of progesterone's affinity. However, so far nobody has offered definitive evidence that nandrolone's effects are weaker once it is bound. There is one parameter of activity in one animal study that is lower, but it will take more than that to decide the issue.

I'll comment on these when I have a little more time:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jcp.22936

The effect of anabolic–androgenic steroids on aromatase activity and androgen receptor binding in the rat preoptic area

The level of aromatase in the preoptic area of rats is transcriptionally regulated through a specific androgen-receptor mediated mechanism and can be …

www.sciencedirect.com

Nandrolone and stanozolol upregulate aromatase expression and further increase IGF-I-dependent effects on MCF-7 breast cancer cell proliferation

Several doping agents, such as anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) and peptide hormones like insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I), are employed without…

www.sciencedirect.com

My anecdotal experience is E2 was significantly higher after 19 weeks of ND than at baseline on same weekly dosage of Testosterone. I'll have to go back and look at the actual numbers and confirm this happened both times I used ND. Also don't remember if my E2 results were LCMS or immunoassay.

 

[tareload]

Nandrolone: A Multi-Faceted Doping Agent

Nandrolone or nortestosterone, an anabolic-androgenic steroid, has been prohibited by doping control regulations for more than 30 years. Although its main metabolism in the human body was already known at that time, and detection of its misuse by gas or liquid...

link.springer.com

 

[Cataceous]

I'll comment on these when I have a little more time:

...

I'm unclear on the practical implications of these. If androgens are generally increasing aromatization independently via the androgen receptor and this significantly affects estradiol production at physiological levels then I'd think it would affect the outcome of research like this, and you wouldn't necessarily see a good fit to the saturable Michaelis-Menten kinetics.

In any case, it seems like the basics aren't in dispute: If you substitute nandrolone for testosterone then you greatly decrease estradiol. If you add nandrolone to testosterone then you increase estradiol by some amount. The question about the latter is, does the increase come mainly from the extra raw material available for conversion, or does the nandrolone itself stimulate significantly more overall aromatization?

I am interested in seeing the size of your estradiol increases with nandrolone...

 

[Gman86]

I'm unclear on the practical implications of these. If androgens are generally increasing aromatization independently via the androgen receptor and this significantly affects estradiol production at physiological levels then I'd think it would affect the outcome of research like this, and you wouldn't necessarily see a good fit to the saturable Michaelis-Menten kinetics.

In any case, it seems like the basics aren't in dispute: If you substitute nandrolone for testosterone then you greatly decrease estradiol. If you add nandrolone to testosterone then you increase estradiol by some amount. The question about the latter is, does the increase come mainly from the extra raw material available for conversion, or does the nandrolone itself stimulate significantly more overall aromatization?

I am interested in seeing the size of your estradiol increases with nandrolone...

Here’s all the times I had E2 tested while on a nandrolone base. Not sure if this gives u any valuable info in regards to how much E2 nandrolone produces compared to test. It might not since my testosterone dose was the main variable I was changing, not the nandrolone.



STARTED DECA BASE


4-2-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 42mg/ week
HCG - 525iu’s/ week

Ultrasensitive E2 - 24

5-8-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 63mg/ week
NO HCG

Ultrasensitive E2 - 34


5-26-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 63mg/ week
1000iu’s HCG/ week (Empower)

Ultrasensitive E2 - 32



7-15-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 63mg/ week
1000iu’s SAFASI HCG/ week

Ultrasensitive E2 - 45



8-29-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 84mg/ week
No HCG

E2 ultrasensitive - 46

 

[DS3]

Here’s all the times I had E2 tested while on a nandrolone base. Not sure if this gives u any valuable info in regards to how much E2 nandrolone produces compared to test. It might not since my testosterone dose was the main variable I was changing, not the nandrolone.



STARTED DECA BASE


4-2-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 42mg/ week
HCG - 525iu’s/ week

Ultrasensitive E2 - 24

5-8-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 63mg/ week
NO HCG

Ultrasensitive E2 - 34


5-26-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 63mg/ week
1000iu’s HCG/ week (Empower)

Ultrasensitive E2 - 32



7-15-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 63mg/ week
1000iu’s SAFASI HCG/ week

Ultrasensitive E2 - 45



8-29-20
Deca - 203mg/ week
Test - 84mg/ week
No HCG

E2 ultrasensitive - 46

How did your energy and mood feel on these protocols?

 

[Gman86]

How did your energy and mood feel on these protocols?

Mood was always really good. Energy was pretty good. I was able to work 70 hours a week np. But energy is a tough one for me just because I’ve suffered with some form of brain fog since I started HRT in 2014. It was the main system that got me started with HRT. It’s definitely gotten a lot better since being on HRT, but it’s still present, and on days that it’s worse my energy goes down, and vice versa. But overall my energy on that protocol was pretty good compared to other protocols I’ve tried. Only thing that change when I titrated up my test dose in the 80mg range along with the 200mg of nandrolone my libido went down a little bit. It went down further when I went up to 105mg of test along with 200mg nandrolone. My sweet spot was 200mg of nandrolone and my test dose in the 60mg range

 

[DS3]

Mood was always really good. Energy was pretty good. I was able to work 70 hours a week np. But energy is a tough one for me just because I’ve suffered with some form of brain fog since I started HRT in 2014. It was the main system that got me started with HRT. It’s definitely gotten a lot better since being on HRT, but it’s still present, and on days that it’s worse my energy goes down, and vice versa. But overall my energy on that protocol was pretty good compared to other protocols I’ve tried. Only thing that change when I titrated up my test dose in the 80mg range along with the 200mg of nandrolone my libido went down a little bit. It went down further when I went up to 105mg of test along with 200mg nandrolone. My sweet spot was 200mg of nandrolone and my test dose in the 60mg range

In comparison to your typical 150-200 mg of testosterone per week without nandrolone, was your mood and energy improved?

 

[Gman86]

In comparison to your typical 150-200 mg of testosterone per week without nandrolone, was your mood and energy improved?

I’m currently on 200mg test and 125mg of nandrolone, along with 20mg of Oxandrolone sublingually pre workout 3x/ week, and 1mg of injectable progesterone before bed everyday. I would say energy is about the same on this protocol as it was on a nandrolone base. Mood is still really good. Libido is about the same. It’s weird, but there’s not much difference in everything now compared to using a nandrolone base, even tho these are two very different protocols. Only difference is that I feel like I’m noticing quite a few positive benefits from the progesterone, and most likely an increase in allopregnenolone. More calmness and being comfortable in social settings. Feeling more content with everything in my life. Just feeling more relaxed, but not lazy or anything. I really feel that progesterone might be a missing key for a lot of guys on TRT. But anyways, to answer ur question I don’t think I can say I notice much difference now compared to when I was using the nandrolone base, in regards to energy. Oh, u asked how the nandrolone only with low dose test compared to how I felt on test alone. But honestly I think about the same as when I was using test only as well. I know that’s a pretty boring answer lol, but I can’t think of my energy levels being any different on test only compared to a nandrolone base, or how they are currently