Since the posts on this matter are quite scattered, I decided to start a new thread. Im hoping that this one could be a hub for all kinds of discussion on this topic.
If I have understood correctly the hypothesis on this is that a prolonged deprivation of ones estrogen - by using an AI - may lead to gene alterations on the estrogen receptor. Despite normal serum levels the estrogen is not able to bind on its receptor and thus one may have symptoms of low estrogen.
This hypothesis is mainly promoted by nurselyfe and hopefully he will also contribute in this thread.
The main reason that makes me interested in this is the fact I seem to be having low estrogen symptoms even though I haven't used an AI in months and my E2 levels are good - when tested with sensitive method.
What this means is that somewhat high E2 makes me feel worse when in the past it was associated with a lot of positive "symptoms".
At first I think it's important to see if we can find anything that would give support to this hypothesis. Now I haven't really been scavenging the deep ends of pubmed whit this. That said, I have not yet seen a single study that would make this hypothesis more plausible.
What we do see is the fact that certain estrogen receptor are up-regulated and become hypersensitive - after estrogen deprivation. An example of this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16113100
I have also experienced this at first hand and im sure that so are many other user on this forum.
Also there is an animal study that observed a change in mating behavior after prolonged E2 deprivation: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...18506X81900180
However the conclusion was not that the cause was the desensitization of estrogen receptors.
Now from the anecdotal perspective there is me, nurselyfe and lowe2sucks that claim to have persistent low e2 symptoms despite not taking any AI:s - and having a normal E2 level.
When it comes to the validity of these anecdotes, I think its important to see how the process of elimination is applied.
I think that I have excluded many of the other possible factors that might contribute to my symptoms. Those who are interested can look my other threads on this matter.
nurselyfe seems to be in the process of ruling out other factors. That's good. Im hoping that he could post his lab work in this thread.
Lowe2sucks does not seem to be really consistent with his protocols. Also I havent really seen him post any recent labs.
Now there was also one anecdotal that was originally posted on a PFS forum. Here's what that guy wrote:
"Hello folks.
I thought i would just make a post warning the risks of using Aromatise Inhibitors to alleviate some of the symptoms of PFS.
In August 2015 i was experimenting with small doses of Arimidex and Aromasin. I found that my libido would return from one dosage then it would fade away. I tried many dosing protocols and ended up taking too much Aromasin. I lowered my Estradiol too far and suffered the effects of estradiol deprivation for a short period of time. About a week after cessation of aromasin i suddenly crashed again and all hell broke loose.
Over the next 6 months i started rapidly degenerating with numerous new physical, neurological and sexual symptoms. The connective tissue all over my body lost all tensile strength and i can no longer bend any joint without risk of injury. My small and large intestine totally lost peristalsis and i was forced to go on a liquid diet to prevent a blockage. My brainfog became so bad that i now feel like i am in a video game. My vision is now blurry and grainy with flashes and floaters. As of last week my stomach has now shut down on me and i am living off pure liquids to prevent vomitting. My **** and libido are totally gone but those are the least of my worries.
It has been 12 months now since i stopped the Aromatise Inhibitors and things are only getting worse. I had bloodwork done and everything was in the range including estradiol! I even tried estradiol creams and took my e2 over range with no effect. Just like how DHT cream and TRT had no effects on my PFS.
I do not know what to make of this situation, but it seems that i have induced another systemic hormone problem on an estrogen pathway. It seems my body is just too sensitive to go inhibiting enzymes.
I am sure most will think this is a post by some crazy hypochondriac but i hope i can at least stop one person from going down the bad road of self experimentation. My life is now over and i require daily care to live. I lost my business and independence and i do not want the same to happen to anyone else.
Tread carefully friends. Stay away from ANY enzyme inhibitor."
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11335
Apparently he committed suicide after this ordeal.
Now from the other perspective there are multitudes of anecdotals from different forums where users report being <5 pg/ml for months and they still seem to return to their old selves. Also there was a study posted where men used 1mg of arimidex a day for 16 weeks. I would assume that those guys - or atleast some of them - were pretty deprived of estrogen for a long time. So I guess my question is; why would this "desinsitization" happen only to a few people?
If I have understood correctly the hypothesis on this is that a prolonged deprivation of ones estrogen - by using an AI - may lead to gene alterations on the estrogen receptor. Despite normal serum levels the estrogen is not able to bind on its receptor and thus one may have symptoms of low estrogen.
This hypothesis is mainly promoted by nurselyfe and hopefully he will also contribute in this thread.
The main reason that makes me interested in this is the fact I seem to be having low estrogen symptoms even though I haven't used an AI in months and my E2 levels are good - when tested with sensitive method.
What this means is that somewhat high E2 makes me feel worse when in the past it was associated with a lot of positive "symptoms".
At first I think it's important to see if we can find anything that would give support to this hypothesis. Now I haven't really been scavenging the deep ends of pubmed whit this. That said, I have not yet seen a single study that would make this hypothesis more plausible.
What we do see is the fact that certain estrogen receptor are up-regulated and become hypersensitive - after estrogen deprivation. An example of this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16113100
I have also experienced this at first hand and im sure that so are many other user on this forum.
Also there is an animal study that observed a change in mating behavior after prolonged E2 deprivation: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...18506X81900180
However the conclusion was not that the cause was the desensitization of estrogen receptors.
Now from the anecdotal perspective there is me, nurselyfe and lowe2sucks that claim to have persistent low e2 symptoms despite not taking any AI:s - and having a normal E2 level.
When it comes to the validity of these anecdotes, I think its important to see how the process of elimination is applied.
I think that I have excluded many of the other possible factors that might contribute to my symptoms. Those who are interested can look my other threads on this matter.
nurselyfe seems to be in the process of ruling out other factors. That's good. Im hoping that he could post his lab work in this thread.
Lowe2sucks does not seem to be really consistent with his protocols. Also I havent really seen him post any recent labs.
Now there was also one anecdotal that was originally posted on a PFS forum. Here's what that guy wrote:
"Hello folks.
I thought i would just make a post warning the risks of using Aromatise Inhibitors to alleviate some of the symptoms of PFS.
In August 2015 i was experimenting with small doses of Arimidex and Aromasin. I found that my libido would return from one dosage then it would fade away. I tried many dosing protocols and ended up taking too much Aromasin. I lowered my Estradiol too far and suffered the effects of estradiol deprivation for a short period of time. About a week after cessation of aromasin i suddenly crashed again and all hell broke loose.
Over the next 6 months i started rapidly degenerating with numerous new physical, neurological and sexual symptoms. The connective tissue all over my body lost all tensile strength and i can no longer bend any joint without risk of injury. My small and large intestine totally lost peristalsis and i was forced to go on a liquid diet to prevent a blockage. My brainfog became so bad that i now feel like i am in a video game. My vision is now blurry and grainy with flashes and floaters. As of last week my stomach has now shut down on me and i am living off pure liquids to prevent vomitting. My **** and libido are totally gone but those are the least of my worries.
It has been 12 months now since i stopped the Aromatise Inhibitors and things are only getting worse. I had bloodwork done and everything was in the range including estradiol! I even tried estradiol creams and took my e2 over range with no effect. Just like how DHT cream and TRT had no effects on my PFS.
I do not know what to make of this situation, but it seems that i have induced another systemic hormone problem on an estrogen pathway. It seems my body is just too sensitive to go inhibiting enzymes.
I am sure most will think this is a post by some crazy hypochondriac but i hope i can at least stop one person from going down the bad road of self experimentation. My life is now over and i require daily care to live. I lost my business and independence and i do not want the same to happen to anyone else.
Tread carefully friends. Stay away from ANY enzyme inhibitor."
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11335
Apparently he committed suicide after this ordeal.
Now from the other perspective there are multitudes of anecdotals from different forums where users report being <5 pg/ml for months and they still seem to return to their old selves. Also there was a study posted where men used 1mg of arimidex a day for 16 weeks. I would assume that those guys - or atleast some of them - were pretty deprived of estrogen for a long time. So I guess my question is; why would this "desinsitization" happen only to a few people?
