Why is 200 mg/wk the "upper limit" for TRT?

[Nelson Vergel]

The 12 Year-Old Study That Proves Testosterone Injections Every Two Weeks Fail

 

[Dr. John Crisler]

The 12 Year-Old Study That Proves Testosterone Injections Every Two Weeks Fail

I didn't even know that study existed until you posted it. It's great!

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

I didn't even know that study existed until you posted it. It's great!

Indeed, although as we see every day, a doctor need only to have his eyes and ears open to come to this conclusion without a study to prove it!

 

[Dr. John Crisler]

Indeed, although as we see every day, a doctor need only to have his eyes and ears open to come to this conclusion without a study to prove it!

Ya, besides a complete denial of half-life, clinical response as well. LOL

...and simple common sense.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Ya, besides a complete denial of half-life, clinical response as well. LOL

...and simple common sense.

Sometimes common sense may fall “out of the box”...

 

[Josh Randall]

It's NOT about the dosage of testosterone as it is what blood work says first and second how the man feels.

Most normal otherwise healthy men who have low serum levels due to age related decline and exhibit symptoms don't need 200 mg a week.

Most men do well on 100 mg a week complimented with HCG in the 500 to 750 iu range per week as it also helps to produce endogenous testosterone.

200 mg is a lot and when you consider that a young healthy male produces somewhere between 6 to 10 mg a day of natural endogenous testosterone one can see why 200 mg a week is a lot...a real lot, with many potential unwanted potential side effects.

This is so true. At just 100mgs a week, yes 50mgs twice a week, I was over 1100 TT. Iwas taking .25 Arimidex to keep the e2 in range. I've cut my dose to 40 mgs twice a week and I'm now at 920 TT. E2 was 30 without any armidex. Results aren't the same in the gym, but I was getting concerned about my BP creeping up even at just the 100mgs.

 

[Mrtrex2u]

Hoping someone is still reading this... I've been on 1ml of cypionate for about 8 years now. Split between 2 shots. I'm 43 and workout 5 days a week and I'm averaging 175 at about 14% bf. Last year my total test was 600 and free 100. This month has come back at 256 and 43. Any ideas? Trust me I feel yucky.

 

[Systemlord]

1ml doesn't compute and is the volume, testosterone is in mgs, 1ml could be 100 or 200mg weekly. Your Free T number makes no sense, each lab has different ranges so 100 by itself is meaningless. A number next to a set of ranges, now that means something.

 

[Mrtrex2u]

Sorry....200 mg to 1ml. Hope the attachments help.

 

[Systemlord]

Sorry....200 mg to 1ml. Hope the attachments help.

I don't know what your body is doing with all you testosterone, perhaps GI bleed. Those tests really aren't enough, you need quite a bit more tests to find out what's going on.

 

[Mrtrex2u]

Yea... Call a call out to the doctor to see her ideas. Crazy stuff. Thanks

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Hoping someone is still reading this... I've been on 1ml of cypionate for about 8 years now. Split between 2 shots. I'm 43 and workout 5 days a week and I'm averaging 175 at about 14% bf. Last year my total test was 600 and free 100. This month has come back at 256 and 43. Any ideas? Trust me I feel yucky.

I am confused since you only gave dose but not frequency.

 

[Nomad]

I’m prescribed 240mg a week. On day 7 when my doctor does tests the highest I’ve been with HCG is 982.

 

[murrayh]

Will,

The difference is that you're dealing with men with impaired livers in this thread. Both Vince Carter and Bonetti Gianluca have naturally low SHBG. They're going to have supraphysiological free testosterone levels no matter what. They are going to have supraphysiological estradiol and free estradiol levers no matter what (without AI intervention.) With low SHBG, there is no such thing as "balance" or "health". There is only " majorly ****ed." As Dr. Crisler says, SHBG "deals the cards."

One thing that low SHBG men seem to notice, as demonstrated right in this nice petri dish of a thread -- is that they need supraphysiological levels of testosterone to feel normal. There are many possible reasons for this upon which modern studies are shedding light, including extracellular hormone signalling and the role of cellular free SHBG uptake. Most traditional broscience and messageboard expertise is blind to the concept. I've even heard people in this very forum claim they wished they had low SHBG. (wow.)

I've heard many men say they feel "fine" with low SHBG and almost universally, we later discover that they are taking at least 200 mg/wk, if not more.

Quantity of testosterone injected is meaningless if the net effect of the testosterone on androgen receptors is the same, and in these low SHBG men, it would seem that they are not doing anything at all unhealthy.

With low SHBG (<16 nmol/L), most men don't "feel" any effect of testosterone whatsoever. They will always be at natural extremes. There is no balance possible, because the free fraction of hormones will always be exaggerated and the metabolic clearance rate of testosterone will always be exaggerated.

This seems to be contradictory to what a lot of the forums say, but I am interested in your theory. Most of the ideas on the forum advocate lower doses of testosterone for low SHBG. I could be wrong but I have never seen any of the physicians give this opinion or notice in their clinical experience. I could be totally wrong they may have expressed this I just haven't seen it. I know the idea is that you have greater free estrogen levels but if proper estrogen control is applied is and free is kept in range then what is the downside of higher T dosages in low SHBG?

 

[sokaiya]

Less is more Though if you want to venture into higher dosages, definitely keep a journal of how you are feeling etc (like the TRT Analyzer app) and DEFINITELY get labs done before you start increasing and compare it to the higher therapeutic dose you are taking. Personally, i get labs done x1/month.

 

[murrayh]

Less is more Though if you want to venture into higher dosages, definitely keep a journal of how you are feeling etc (like the TRT Analyzer app) and DEFINITELY get labs done before you start increasing and compare it to the higher therapeutic dose you are taking. Personally, i get labs done x1/month.

I realize that is typically what is the conventional wisdom but vestpocket is introducing a theory that SHBG does more than just “carry” sex hormones. Myself have been on trt for 6 months with pretty minimal results. I’m experimenting with the idea of if it’s either because of the free estradiol aspect that i have not been addressing or my dose just has not been high enough for my sweet spot. I would be curious of guys with low SHBG that are on higher doses and doing well. What about their AI dosing?

 

[user_joe]

I realize that is typically what is the conventional wisdom but vestpocket is introducing a theory that SHBG does more than just “carry” sex hormones. Myself have been on trt for 6 months with pretty minimal results. I’m experimenting with the idea of if it’s either because of the free estradiol aspect that i have not been addressing or my dose just has not been high enough for my sweet spot. I would be curious of guys with low SHBG that are on higher doses and doing well. What about their AI dosing?

This stuff is too individual to solve that problem by asking questions on a forum. I’ve heard doctors state that shbg does more than just bind up androgens making them unavailable. If your protocol isn’t working you just have to try something new.

I don’t subscribe to the 200/wk being some absolute limit. I did 300/wk recently. This is Dr prescribed. 6 hours before trough TT was 1280. Blood work was the best I’ve had in 4 years on TRT. I wasn’t expecting that.

 

[murrayh]

This stuff is too individual to solve that problem by asking questions on a forum. I’ve heard doctors state that shbg does more than just bind up androgens making them unavailable. If your protocol isn’t working you just have to try something new.

I don’t subscribe to the 200/wk being some absolute limit. I did 300/wk recently. This is Dr prescribed. 6 hours before trough TT was 1280. Blood work was the best I’ve had in 4 years on TRT. I wasn’t expecting that.

Of course it's individualized just was wanting to hear discussion/ experiences. Do you have low SHBG?

 

[sokaiya]

I realize that is typically what is the conventional wisdom but vestpocket is introducing a theory that SHBG does more than just “carry” sex hormones. Myself have been on trt for 6 months with pretty minimal results. I’m experimenting with the idea of if it’s either because of the free estradiol aspect that i have not been addressing or my dose just has not been high enough for my sweet spot. I would be curious of guys with low SHBG that are on higher doses and doing well. What about their AI dosing?

I was on higher dosing at one point (300mg - 400mg/week) and during that time my SHBG was around 12. I felt great, however i had a VERY difficult time controlling E2 and my HCT increasing was also a big issue. As i tapered off testosterone, my SHBG rose up to 45 as of one month ago it was at 27 (now completely off everything).

I would never go back to those high dosages again. It was more of an experiment and i would keep close tabs on my monthly labs.

 

[user_joe]

Of course it's individualized just was wanting to hear discussion/ experiences. Do you have low SHBG?

It’s usually 25 give or take. Not sure that’s low for someone on TRT. Seems pretty common.