Why is 200 mg/wk the "upper limit" for TRT?
- Thread starter hamletshead
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I'm back down to 200 mg/wk after some experimentation with other anabolics and upping my dose to 300/wk Test.
I've done this several times over the past 3 years, and I can tell you that I FEEL much better at 180-200/wk (I realize this is considered high by some TRT standards but labs look ok on that for me) than I do on higher doses. Indeed, when you are adding medications (drugs) to counter side effects, whether it be an escalation of your AI protocol, adding a BP medication etc. etc., you realize this is a point of diminishing return.
Importantly, for me and what I imagine most of us, is that I feel better sexually on SUB 250 mg/wk doses of Test cyp. I've stated in the past that I've gone as high as 400/wk and I've also done 300/wk with other compounds (little experiments), and while for sure you can add muscle and strength, I really do not think it's worth it.
Indeed, on the bro forums, I've always sort of rolled my eyes when the "senior" guys downplayed the importance of AAS and focused on training, cardio, and diet as major variables. But, my experience is that this isn't far off from the truth. Yes, increasing doses of AAS will increase performance (but NOT necessarily in the bedroom), but it becomes a point of diminishing return and the difficulties in controlling side effects for sure gets amplified.
So, after some experimentation (to quench my curiosity) with some small cycles, I've determined, that good ole TRT (at high normal or high) is the best. You can stay strong, lean, and overall feeling of well being and sexuality is superior IMO to other agents/doses.
Just some experiences for guys to consider. I also do not believe that high doses are healthy over the long haul. I realize the data suggests relatively benign, but I'm not super convinced, but I admit that's been a personal bias.
I'll add that "agents" I've used in the past have been high grade/quality as well.....
I've done this several times over the past 3 years, and I can tell you that I FEEL much better at 180-200/wk (I realize this is considered high by some TRT standards but labs look ok on that for me) than I do on higher doses. Indeed, when you are adding medications (drugs) to counter side effects, whether it be an escalation of your AI protocol, adding a BP medication etc. etc., you realize this is a point of diminishing return.
Importantly, for me and what I imagine most of us, is that I feel better sexually on SUB 250 mg/wk doses of Test cyp. I've stated in the past that I've gone as high as 400/wk and I've also done 300/wk with other compounds (little experiments), and while for sure you can add muscle and strength, I really do not think it's worth it.
Indeed, on the bro forums, I've always sort of rolled my eyes when the "senior" guys downplayed the importance of AAS and focused on training, cardio, and diet as major variables. But, my experience is that this isn't far off from the truth. Yes, increasing doses of AAS will increase performance (but NOT necessarily in the bedroom), but it becomes a point of diminishing return and the difficulties in controlling side effects for sure gets amplified.
So, after some experimentation (to quench my curiosity) with some small cycles, I've determined, that good ole TRT (at high normal or high) is the best. You can stay strong, lean, and overall feeling of well being and sexuality is superior IMO to other agents/doses.
Just some experiences for guys to consider. I also do not believe that high doses are healthy over the long haul. I realize the data suggests relatively benign, but I'm not super convinced, but I admit that's been a personal bias.
I'll add that "agents" I've used in the past have been high grade/quality as well.....
From a lifestyle perspective, having a very busy career, on blasts, I've always felt compelled to hit the gym pretty hard with weights. As in not to "waste" the blast cycle......
However, my lifestyle isn't really conducive to that always. I prefer to mix in some weight training (for sure) with some lighter cardio, push ups, and simply staying active. When I'm with my son I'd rather focus on being present and doing active things with him versus "worrying" about needing to hit the free weights while I'm on supraphysiological doses of AAS etc.
So, in many ways, I feel very liberated NOT to be running higher doses of substances. I know that may sound weird but it's been nice. I also feel much leaner (in spite of escalating AI on higher doses) and just overall healthier on 200/wk versus much higher. Probably 225/wk would also be o.k.
I did have some BP issues on 20 mg oxandrolone plus 300/wk Tcyp and had to escalate a BP med. Just not worth it to me.
Also, it is a fact that if you are concerned with "looking better naked" you will do so by staying lean, with some muscle mass, versus more muscle with more bloat. It's very interesting how all of this works....... I do not regret my little blasts and may do more in the future but I'm not sure.
However, my lifestyle isn't really conducive to that always. I prefer to mix in some weight training (for sure) with some lighter cardio, push ups, and simply staying active. When I'm with my son I'd rather focus on being present and doing active things with him versus "worrying" about needing to hit the free weights while I'm on supraphysiological doses of AAS etc.
So, in many ways, I feel very liberated NOT to be running higher doses of substances. I know that may sound weird but it's been nice. I also feel much leaner (in spite of escalating AI on higher doses) and just overall healthier on 200/wk versus much higher. Probably 225/wk would also be o.k.
I did have some BP issues on 20 mg oxandrolone plus 300/wk Tcyp and had to escalate a BP med. Just not worth it to me.
Also, it is a fact that if you are concerned with "looking better naked" you will do so by staying lean, with some muscle mass, versus more muscle with more bloat. It's very interesting how all of this works....... I do not regret my little blasts and may do more in the future but I'm not sure.
JQ88, I am doing 0.25 mg Arimidex on injection days which are 70mg Monday and Wednesday a.m. and Sunday p.m.
I do need to get labs to see what E2 is doing, but over time you will get a feel for how balanced you are from "feel", water weight, and sexual function. So, while labs are good, how you feel is probably best, but that takes some time and experience.
I do need to get labs to see what E2 is doing, but over time you will get a feel for how balanced you are from "feel", water weight, and sexual function. So, while labs are good, how you feel is probably best, but that takes some time and experience.
I'd agree with your statement on erectile strength. Indeed, it's a very important "leading indicator" on how you are doing overall.
Probably I could get away with Twice per week injections. 3 may be overkill, but I do SQ so it doesn't really matter too much in terms of violating fascia etc.
Just thought I'd chip in with my experience on being on 200mg test cyp/week (100mg twice weekly) for several years now (0.25mg adex EOD, 250IU HCG twice weekly). I'm 35, 6'1, 200lb at 10% bf.
It costs a fortune to get bloods done here in the UK, but at most recent check last year, hematocrit was fine (I give blood every 12 weeks), cholesterol was good, total T was pushing 1500. Whilst I know this is bordering on supraphysiological, it doesn't seem to be doing me any harm.
Endless motivation, drive and energy, sex drive healthy (although not quite to the level of "14 year old boy" it was during the first couple of months on TRT!). Gradually packed on nearly 10kg muscle over the last 4 years, and body composition still continues to change, very slowly - my fat deposition patterns have changed completely, it now goes on nearly exclusively on my stomach, whereas before it would always show up first on the back of my hips.
If I get bloods done again any time soon, I'll post back.
It costs a fortune to get bloods done here in the UK, but at most recent check last year, hematocrit was fine (I give blood every 12 weeks), cholesterol was good, total T was pushing 1500. Whilst I know this is bordering on supraphysiological, it doesn't seem to be doing me any harm.
Endless motivation, drive and energy, sex drive healthy (although not quite to the level of "14 year old boy" it was during the first couple of months on TRT!). Gradually packed on nearly 10kg muscle over the last 4 years, and body composition still continues to change, very slowly - my fat deposition patterns have changed completely, it now goes on nearly exclusively on my stomach, whereas before it would always show up first on the back of my hips.
If I get bloods done again any time soon, I'll post back.
The worst part about the Adex is cutting those pills... never exact... nor is the liquid dosing.
I was running 50eod for a while TT was 1270... Free t thru the roof... e2 37... but still didn't feel great. E2 was too high despite a good ratio.
I'm very sensitive to estrogen and very sensitive to anastrozole. Sometimes a very difficult balancing act... still way better than pre-TRT.
I feel best when e2 is high teens believe it or not.
I am low shbg.
I was running 50eod for a while TT was 1270... Free t thru the roof... e2 37... but still didn't feel great. E2 was too high despite a good ratio.
I'm very sensitive to estrogen and very sensitive to anastrozole. Sometimes a very difficult balancing act... still way better than pre-TRT.
I feel best when e2 is high teens believe it or not.
I am low shbg.
Gianluca
Well-Known Member
I'm a low SHBG guy as well and I'm pretty much like you, hard to feel great, I do believe I do better as well with low e2 like around 25 and I'm very sensitive to AI as well, every time is a mess to balance the dose,
Bonetti,
So what do you do?
Low shbg guys have had success with more frequent injections... but (for me) does not eliminate the need for AI.
The most success I have had is a steady t protocol and gauge e2 by morning wood then come close to establishing a protocol although it always varies and cutting those pills sucks.
So what do you do?
Low shbg guys have had success with more frequent injections... but (for me) does not eliminate the need for AI.
The most success I have had is a steady t protocol and gauge e2 by morning wood then come close to establishing a protocol although it always varies and cutting those pills sucks.
Vince Carter
Banned
For my low SHBG im trying an E2 in the <20 range, I was using .25mg/EOD that took me to the teens and we thought that that was too low so we went .25 M/W/F, but we didn't take in to account some of this new(er) info about low SHBG and Free Estrogen that goes along with High Free T that we low SHBG guys have. SO it's something that is a newer viewpoint for the low SHBG crowd.
Gianluca
Well-Known Member
I do 3 x week injection 0.35ml, and AI 0,07 3 x plus HCG 20IU 5 x week, my TT came back 914 FT 30, E2 54, I want to lower my E2 but I'm thinking to give it a try to actually lower the dose from .35ml 3x week to .3ml 3 x week, and doing AI 0.07 x 4 this time, just to see how I feel with my FT around 25, regardless of where my TT will get
Gianluca
Well-Known Member
Vince
please explain this Free Estrogen and Free Testosterone relationship with low SHBG guys, cause I did noticed doing better with my E2 on the low side, like around 25, is that free Estrogen binds to FT giving us a false high FT reading??
please explain this Free Estrogen and Free Testosterone relationship with low SHBG guys, cause I did noticed doing better with my E2 on the low side, like around 25, is that free Estrogen binds to FT giving us a false high FT reading??
Vince Carter
Banned
Per one of Dr Crisler's recent books the thought that with low SHBG as you know means there's more T that is unbound and is able to be used by the body, typically us guys see Free T that is way above lab ranges, over 3% of total. The thought goes that along with the Free T, there is Free Estrogen for the same reason...low SHBG. AS the theory goes the Free E results in the idea that low SHBG guys may need to be in the teens with LC/MS/MS testing because the amount of Free Estrogens. This is opposed to the standard thought of ~21-30 for E2. It's a very new idea this Free Estrogens and SHBG.
Vince Carter
Banned
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