When does estrogen become a concern?

[Gman86]

Currently 250mg eod shallow IM in the quads. Not too much of a difference for me between 250mg and 200mg and may revert back to that in a few months. Its been around 5 months now since 200+mg. The magic was almost immediate within a couple days of reaching 200mg, and has remained. The "honeymoon" phase I got which started and went with the lower doses (as it does in most) seems to be back permanently most days with the higher dose. I am mentioning all this as people don't seem to post success stories generally, and I attribute at least half of the success to E2. I also believe high E2 will only be helpful if T is high as well.

No I LOVE seeing guys like you that experiment to see what works for them. Don’t let anybody on here put you down. Guys here will talk about the most important thing being how you feel, and your health markers, but then once you go out of the range that they’re used to, it doesn’t matter how you feel, or how your health markers look. You just get judged and called a “steroid user”. Again, don’t listen to any of those guys. All that matters is that you finally found a way to feel great, and hopefully you are monitoring your health markers to make sure your health isn’t compromised. But honestly that’s only to again, please everyone on here. I personally just want everyone to be happy. I’ve learned how to be happy, and just want to help everyone I can to be happy as well. I see nothing wrong with guys going a little high on doses if it makes them happier and feel more optimal and enjoy life more. Even if some health markers are slightly compromised. I don’t think it’s smart to sacrifice health markers too much, but if HCT goes up to say 54 or 55, and cholesterol numbers take a slight hit, I don’t see anything wrong with any of that if the guy is feeling great, enjoying life more, is a better husband, better father, etc. Life’s about balance. That balance is going to be different for everyone.

But honestly, thank you so much for running this experiment on yourself, and reporting your experience with it. I personally really appreciate it, and I’m sure others do too.

 

[Gman86]

As mentioned, I have done absolutely ZERO bloodwork to date. I simply tried ever increasing doses till I felt great (probably after my free T went over the range).

I am NOT advocating anyone else here tries my novel approach, but everyone seems to do bloodwork and then still proceeds to adjust dosing, adding compounds, blaming E2, etc. So whats the point? Getting free T over the range (which was really my great grandfathers within range) seems to be key to feeling great. Increasing dosing is the only way to accomplish that.

The more I learn, the more I’m realizing it really is all about the free T to E ratio.

 

[OneJoe]

As mentioned, I have done absolutely ZERO bloodwork to date. I simply tried ever increasing doses till I felt great (probably after my free T went over the range).

I am NOT advocating anyone else here tries my novel approach, but everyone seems to do bloodwork and then still proceeds to adjust dosing, adding compounds, blaming E2, etc. So whats the point? Getting free T over the range (which was really my great grandfathers within range) seems to be key to feeling great. Increasing dosing is the only way to accomplish that.

Sorry I skipped over that part when reading.

 

[bixt]

I don’t think it’s smart to sacrifice health markers too much, but if HCT goes up to say 54 or 55, and cholesterol numbers take a slight hit, I don’t see anything wrong with any of that if the guy is feeling great, enjoying life more, is a better husband, better father, etc. Life’s about balance. That balance is going to be different for everyone.

.

Thanks for your encouragement! I am very glad you brought up health markers. Indeed, one needs to be prudent with diet, exercise and cholesterol.

Too many people are screaming that long term high T levels are unhealthy, with no proof. Ditto for HCT. Its all unproven hypothesis. But even if they were true, I don't care. I was so miserable before higher end dosing, so whats the point living to 80? I made the decision: Worse case I die at 60 if the alleged heart disease and stroke materializes. But I would have had 30 years of awesome life, and being able to take care of my family. A worthwhile trade off.

 

[Gman86]

Thanks for your encouragement! I am very glad you brought up health markers. Indeed, one needs to be prudent with diet, exercise and cholesterol.

Too many people are screaming that long term high T levels are unhealthy, with no proof. Ditto for HCT. Its all unproven hypothesis. But even if they were true, I don't care. I was so miserable before higher end dosing, so whats the point living to 80? I made the decision: Worse case I die at 60 if the alleged heart disease and stroke materializes. But I would have had 30 years of awesome life, and being able to take care of my family. A worthwhile trade off.

EXACTLY! I’d rather lose 5-10 years and live an awesome life where I’m happy and am a better person to the people around me, than to not feel like myself and not be able to enjoy life to the fullest, but live an extra 5-10 years like that.

I’m with you though. I firmly believe that men 100-200 years ago had free T levels double the top end of the range, on a regular basis.

Also, with the health markers, people get scared of HCT when it gets above 51-52. People don’t realize that there’s much more that goes into blood viscosity than the amount of red blood cells. People get erythrocytosis confused confused with polycythemia Vera. When you elevate HCT from TRT, you have the first one. People think they’re the same. The difference is we don’t usually have elevated platelets, as well as elevated HCT. My platelets are actually on the lower side, even when HCT has gotten up to 54. We also have to factor in WBC’s. Like I said, there’s much more to blood viscosity than just RBC’s. Platelets play a HUGE role in clotting and blood viscosity. So as long as platelets are within range, or low like myself, WBC’s are within range, and HCT is 55 or below, you are completely fine, and have nothing to worry about. So don’t listen to these guys that have no clue what they’re talking about and get scared when you go above 150mg/ week and start making you think you’re gonna die in 10 years from a heart attack or stroke. I firmly believe that if you’re eating right, exercising regularly and sleeping well, using a dose between 200-250mg/ week will have almost no deleterious effects in your overall health, and will not take any years off your life. For you, it might even increase your life span due to the increased happiness and lowered stress.

 

[Charliebizz]

Thanks for your encouragement! I am very glad you brought up health markers. Indeed, one needs to be prudent with diet, exercise and cholesterol.

Too many people are screaming that long term high T levels are unhealthy, with no proof. Ditto for HCT. Its all unproven hypothesis. But even if they were true, I don't care. I was so miserable before higher end dosing, so whats the point living to 80? I made the decision: Worse case I die at 60 if the alleged heart disease and stroke materializes. But I would have had 30 years of awesome life, and being able to take care of my family. A worthwhile trade off.

Did you experience any side effects working up to your current dose ?

 

[Charliebizz]

EXACTLY! I’d rather lose 5-10 years and live an awesome life where I’m happy and am a better person to the people around me, than to not feel like myself and not be able to enjoy life to the fullest, but live an extra 5-10 years like that.

I’m with you though. I firmly believe that men 100-200 years ago had free T levels double the top end of the range, on a regular basis.

Also, with the health markers, people get scared of HCT when it gets above 51-52. People don’t realize that there’s much more that goes into blood viscosity than the amount of red blood cells. People get erythrocytosis confused confused with polycythemia Vera. When you elevate HCT from TRT, you have the first one. People think they’re the same. The difference is we don’t usually have elevated platelets, as well as elevated HCT. My platelets are actually on the lower side, even when HCT has gotten up to 54. We also have to factor in WBC’s. Like I said, there’s much more to blood viscosity than just RBC’s. Platelets play a HUGE role in clotting and blood viscosity. So as long as platelets are within range, or low like myself, WBC’s are within range, and HCT is 55 or below, you are completely fine, and have nothing to worry about. So don’t listen to these guys that have no clue what they’re talking about and get scared when you go above 150mg/ week and start making you think you’re gonna die in 10 years from a heart attack or stroke. I firmly believe that if you’re eating right, exercising regularly and sleeping well, using a dose between 200-250mg/ week will have almost no deleterious effects in your overall health, and will not take any years off your life. For you, it might even increase your life span due to the increased happiness and lowered stress.

So If the logic your using for feeling good at 250mg per week was right that would mean before you got low t and felt good your natural testosterone was way over the range. And that would also mean your natural blood counts would be higer also no ? This is very flawed thinking imo. It’s one thing to do higer dose and not worry about the long term ramifications. That’s your choice. But you can’t act like what your doing to feel better is even close to natural. You guys are looking to feel”optimal” and amazing. And more power to you. Some of us are looking to feel normal and least amount of side effects and long term issues.

That said look at how all these new aged gurus look. Tell me what they are doing is trt come on bro call a spade a spade. That dr jeffery R. That guy is not on a basic trt protocol to just feel normal.

 

[equel]

bixt do you have any idea of your shbg levels, even before trt?

 

[Gman86]

So If the logic your using for feeling good at 250mg per week was right that would mean before you got low t and felt good your natural testosterone was way over the range. And that would also mean your natural blood counts would be higer also no ? This is very flawed thinking imo. It’s one thing to do higer dose and not worry about the long term ramifications. That’s your choice. But you can’t act like what your doing to feel better is even close to natural. You guys are looking to feel”optimal” and amazing. And more power to you. Some of us are looking to feel normal and least amount of side effects and long term issues.

That said look at how all these new aged gurus look. Tell me what they are doing is trt come on bro call a spade a spade. That dr jeffery R. That guy is not on a basic trt protocol to just feel normal.

You can judge long term ramifications by just checking blood markers along the way, as well as monitoring vitals closely. If all things stay in a healthy range in the present, I don’t see how it can negatively effect you in the long term. I think you’re just assuming, like most, that levels slightly above normal TRT dosages are going to result in the same outcomes as guys in the bodybuilding community that are using very high doses of AAS. We’re all in this together man. I know ur having a hard time with HRT, and not feeling the best, but just try to stay positive, and try not to judge too much. This guy found something that works for him and he’s happy, and he’s well aware of what things to monitor to not jeopardize his health. That’s what it’s all about. Feeling good, and trying to stay as healthy as possible.

Not sure what you were trying to say at the beginning there. Do you mind rephrasing it? Why would I consider my natural production way over the range prior to getting low T?

 

[Charliebizz]

What I’m saying is before you had low t I’m sure your natural levels weren’t over the top of the range so why on trt do these new age docs have guys free t double the top of range. And how can you check bloods along the ways when your saying it’s fine to be over the top of the range. Because you believe 200 years ago we were double the range ?

 

[Gman86]

What I’m saying is before you had low t I’m sure your natural levels weren’t over the top of the range so why on trt do these new age docs have guys free t double the top of range. And how can you check bloods along the ways when your saying it’s fine to be over the top of the range. Because you believe 200 years ago we were double the range ?

I honestly believe that 200 years ago men in their prime probably all had total T levels close to 1500, and free T 1.5-2x the top of the current range

That’s a good point tho, that before any of us had low T symptoms, none of us needed levels double the top of the range to feel good. But you have to factor in that all our other hormones were optimal as well, which probably makes it easier to feel great with less T. By the time our T sh*ts the fan, other systems are having issues as well. If we’re just addressing one hormone pathway, it might require a guy to optimize T to the fullest to feel as good as he did when he was young and only needed decent T levels, due to every other system still working optimally. I honesty don’t know. I’m just brainstorming. You also have to factor in that just like insulin resistance is a real thing, and people over the years can require more insulin just to have the same effect as much less insulin when they were younger, the same happens with testosterone. Its obviously called testosterone resistance. Which is obviously when you require more testosterone just to get the same effects as less testosterone when you were younger. Obviously this doesn’t apply to everyone. We are all individuals, and are all going to require a protocol that works for us. All I’m saying is that instead of focusing on negative things and trying to look for problems in this guys protocol that’s clearly doing well, just try to stay positive, and try to take away things from each anecdote that you think can help you along your own journey, and leave whatever’s left that you think won’t help.

 

[Charliebizz]

Well feeling well in the present moment doesn’t mean you are doing well. And everyone can say they would rather live till 60 and feel good then 80 and feel shitty. Till they are dying at 60 wishing they had a few more years with there grandchildren and family. Time moves fast.

 

[Charliebizz]

Look I’m not saying higher dose might not be the answer for some. And some can live a long healthy life. Shit look at Stallone. But come on is that guy on trt?

 

[Gman86]

Look I’m not saying higher dose might not be the answer for some. And some can live a long healthy life. Shit look at Stallone. But come on is that guy on trt?

I see what you’re saying. Just don’t get too caught up with the words. This field moves very quickly. Most guys have learned one way to basically do TRT, and fear change/ what they don’t know. It’s a completely natural aspect of human behavior. In the near future, HRT is most likely going to include other AAS, peptides and possibly sarms. And who knows what else. Some guys are going to fight the progress of HRT, because it’s not what they’re used to, and they believe that men should only be allowed to get their levels to a certain number, and no higher, and they should only be able to use certain compounds. But instead of being very restrictive, in regards to compounds and numbers, I don’t see why we can’t utilize all tools, and have a little higher testosterone levels than what we’re used to, if it makes us feel good, and maintains great health.

Honestly, there’s no point in us going back and forth. We just have to agree to disagree. I totally get what ur saying tho. Let’s not get caught up in everyone’s opinions, and let’s just stay focused on helping everyone here feel better.

 

[madman]

I am self medicating "TRT". I simply started at 80mg as kept increasing every 6 weeks by 20mgor so until I reached 200-250mg which is where I feel well. I have also experimented similarly with subq (a waste of time for me) and shallow IM (excellent, man up and do it). Also with dosing E2d, e3.5d and weekly.

Im using pharma Cyp procured through a friendly pharmacy. Have never tested T, FT or E2, but I feel fantastic. Did put on water weight in the beginning even with the small dose, but that went away.

Not using an AI, and feel like a million bucks. HCG made no difference either way really so I dropped it.

Age 31, and my main motivation for continuing is the supreme confidence gained as well as the "aggression" which is really useful when negotiating in the business world. People simply dont mess with me anymore! Im pretty sure high E2 is a factor here. Ever tried to win a fight with a chick who has PMS? Well, with high E2 no one will mess with you either. Im dead serious here.

To all those not "dialed" in after so many years of posting, call it a "mild cycle" if you insist, but you have to trial 200 or 250mg\week IM EOD for just a month and revert back. You may just be amazed!

And yes, I jumped over 200mg after reading all the hype created by a certain you know who.

I simply started at 80mg as kept increasing every 6 weeks by 20mgor so until I reached 200-250mg which is where I feel well.

80 mg.....6 weeks later 120 mg.....6 weeks later 140 mg.....6 weeks later 160 mg.....6 weeks later 180 mg.....6 weeks later 200 mg.....6 weeks later 220 mg.....6 weeks later 240 mg.

40 weeks later.....really? (yes we can shorten this some as you did state....."I simply started at 80mg as kept increasing every 6 weeks by 20mgor so until I reached 200-250mg which is where I feel well"


How can you even state....."200-250mg which is where I feel well".....as you never gave your body a fighting chance to see how you truly feel on said protocol (T dose/injection frequency)..... you changed your dose every 6 weeks which is nowhere near enough time to truly gauge such.

As not only did you not have blood work done to see where your TT/FT and e2 levels sit but you kept upping your dose every 6 weeks and as you should know whenever one starts trt or is tweaking dose (increasing/decreasing) blood levels will be in FLUX during the following weeks leading up until when they have stabilized at 5-6 weeks and even than once levels have stabilized one would need to give it 2-3 months at new said T levels to not only allow the body to adjust to those new levels.....but to truly gauge how one feels overall regarding mood/energy/libido/erectile function/body composition/recovery.

6 weeks on said protocol (T dose/injection frequency) would in no way be enough time to state whether the TT/FT /e2 levels achieved truly result in overall improvement in low-t symptoms.....let alone overall well being.


Have never tested T, FT or E2, but I feel fantastic.

Sound like a sensible approach.....!

No one could truly gauge a protocol (T dose/injection frequency).....let alone state they feel best at such T dose.....changing T dose every 6 weeks.....top it off with the fact that you have never tested your TT/FT/e2.....let alone the effects such levels have on your blood markers.

Just to be clear.....yes some men may very well need 200 mg/week or slightly higher to achieve a healthy FT level but needing such dose is not common for many men on trt.

Although symptom relief is what truly matters lab work is critical as not only do we want to know how said protocol (T dose/injection frequency) effects ones TT/FT levels but also to keep an eye on the impact it has on overall blood markers as we are not only trying to relieve/improve symptoms of low-t but to minimize/avoid any potential negative effects on overall health especially long-term.

Regarding reference ranges they are not set in stone and should be used as a guideline to give us an idea of where hormones/blood markers sit as levels could very well be too high or low resulting in negative effects.

There is nothing wrong with one running TT/FT levels above range as long as blood markers are healthy and you feel well overall.

No one is saying you have to keep your levels in a set range as the goal is to achieve the beneficial effects of having healthy FT levels while making sure overall health is maintained long term.

If you feel great on such dose than stick to your protocol but you should not be self treating yourself blindly by avoiding blood work.

It is naive for you to go on claiming you feel great at such dose when you never gave your body a chance because you were changing your dose every 6 weeks.....it is misleading.

This has been stated numerous times on the forum.....many are struggling because they are changing protocols (T dose/injection frequency) way too soon.....let alone in many cases changing too many things at once (use of an aromatase inhibitor/hCG).

 

[madman]

No I LOVE seeing guys like you that experiment to see what works for them. Don’t let anybody on here put you down. Guys here will talk about the most important thing being how you feel, and your health markers, but then once you go out of the range that they’re used to, it doesn’t matter how you feel, or how your health markers look. You just get judged and called a “steroid user”. Again, don’t listen to any of those guys. All that matters is that you finally found a way to feel great, and hopefully you are monitoring your health markers to make sure your health isn’t compromised. But honestly that’s only to again, please everyone on here. I personally just want everyone to be happy. I’ve learned how to be happy, and just want to help everyone I can to be happy as well. I see nothing wrong with guys going a little high on doses if it makes them happier and feel more optimal and enjoy life more. Even if some health markers are slightly compromised. I don’t think it’s smart to sacrifice health markers too much, but if HCT goes up to say 54 or 55, and cholesterol numbers take a slight hit, I don’t see anything wrong with any of that if the guy is feeling great, enjoying life more, is a better husband, better father, etc. Life’s about balance. That balance is going to be different for everyone.

But honestly, thank you so much for running this experiment on yourself, and reporting your experience with it. I personally really appreciate it, and I’m sure others do too.

What experiment?

Changing your dose every 6 weeks without giving the body time to adapt to those levels to truly gauge how one feels overall.

Basically pointless as his T levels were in FLUX for a majority of the time.

Hard to believe as you very well know it takes time for levels to stabilize (5-6 weeks) and if anything.....let alone time to adapt.....at least a couple of months once levels have stabilized.

You really are clueless.

 

[Gman86]

@bixt perfect example of one of the guys to just ignore. Don’t mind him. He hasn’t learned how to properly communicate with other humans yet.

You’ve found something that finally works for you. Just keep it going. I would try to see how close to 200mg/ week u can get without losing some of the positive effects that you’re experiencing, but other than that if it isn’t broke, don’t go trying to fix it.

He does have a good point about giving the body time to adapt, and regulate itself with the new levels of hormones. That’s why the only thing for you to try, imo, is to maybe start tapering down to see if you can find the minimum effective dose without losing the benefits that you’re currently experiencing.

 

[bixt]

Did you experience any side effects working up to your current dose ?

None whatsoever to date

 

[bixt]

But you can’t act like what your doing to feel better is even close to natural. You guys are looking to feel”optimal” and amazing. And more power to you. Some of us are looking to feel normal and least amount of side effects and long term issues.

l.

Theres "2019" normal and then theres 100 years ago normal. If you want to be an office cubicle sheep, then by all means, aim for 2019 normal. If you want to build an empire, aim for 100 years ago normal.

Why would you NOT want to feel the way your great grandfather did? I have yet to hear any reason for using today's ranges, as opposed to yesteryear's ranges.

 

[bixt]

bixt do you have any idea of your shbg levels, even before trt?

As mentioned, I have done no blood tests of any sort to date. I will be assessing critical heath markers after some time on.