I'm so confused with all the conflicting information out there. A few years ago it was an indisputable fact that estrogen had to be 22-30 or you'd feel like shit and have ED and gyno. Now I'm reading everywhere that you should just let estrogen go completely unchecked unless its over like 70 or 80. What's the deal? Am I safe taking 70mg twice a week without an AI if my estrogen stays below 50? And my DHT is like 60? SHBG 34? I really don't understand what the "right" way to do things is and I want to get dialed in and stop spinning my wheels.
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Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
i don’t think anyone truly knows what that answer is we all react to trt so different. You are trying to take control of a very complex system of the human body. And just when you think you got it figured out it likes to throw a monkey wrench in the plans.
I agree with Charliebizz: there's not enough known to say for sure. A pragmatic approach is use an AI only to counteract clear symptoms of high estradiol, and as sparingly as possible. This puts one between the extreme positions, where one side says long-term AI use must be bad, while the other says long-term high estradiol must be bad.
Vince Carter
Banned
HIgh isn't a number...high is whatever it is to YOU. I start having real problems when my trough E2 is above ~20. I start doing my best when the trough is under 10 but that's relevant to how much I aromatase through the day. A trough is just a snapshot at a low point, it's not like it's constant.
What would be an indisputable clear sign of high e2 for me to watch out for? Some of the commonly listed ones would be easy for a hypochondriac to convince themselves of.
Vince Carter
Banned
acne is one. fluid retention can be a symptom, ED/Libido/dull orgasm/inability to orgasm/reduced sensitivity.
Some of the real problems lie with low and high can mirror one another. a very clear low E sign is achy joints.
Some of the real problems lie with low and high can mirror one another. a very clear low E sign is achy joints.
My humble opinion is. Use an AI if you are truly experiencing high estradiol symptoms or if your estradiol sensitive is significantly above the lab upper range. I don’t believe you should have an important hormone like that significantly above the population upper range. Feeling no side effects doesn’t mean you are not going to potentially have long term issues. Also keep in mind that people usually test their trough levels and ignore peak levels. Not to mention the free estradiol factor.
For instance I wouldn’t feel comfortable running a sensitive estradiol of 50 knowing that 99.9999% of the population have numbers well inside that. But that's just me with no data to prove a point. Because there isn’t data yet to answer that question.
For instance I wouldn’t feel comfortable running a sensitive estradiol of 50 knowing that 99.9999% of the population have numbers well inside that. But that's just me with no data to prove a point. Because there isn’t data yet to answer that question.
It's going to be fairly likely, not indisputable, if it goes away each time you lower your estradiol. For me excessive emotional responsiveness is a clear one—it's there with estradiol in the 50s pg/mL, gone when it's in the 30s. Other potential ones are water retention, weakening of erections, hot flashes and overheating at night. Gynecomastia is sort of the grandaddy of them all, but it's pretty rare, and may require a predisposition and relatively low testosterone.
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
My question is this. With all these people on other groups and forums doing high doses of test. Could they possibly be feeling good with high e2 cause there t is really high. Like is it more about the ratio of t/e2 then the actual number. And I’m not saying that is healthy. Most guys on steroids feel good for a while before they run into problems. So maybe that’s what’s going on with these guys.
I ask because for me with low shbg. Even taking 70mg per week my e2 has been as low as 20 or has shot up to 65. But my total t day after shot is only around 530.
When it is 65 I have a lot of bad symptoms. Tinnitus,anxiety, water retention, snoring, hard pulse. But I never really get a change in libido it’s eq. So weird.
I ask because for me with low shbg. Even taking 70mg per week my e2 has been as low as 20 or has shot up to 65. But my total t day after shot is only around 530.
When it is 65 I have a lot of bad symptoms. Tinnitus,anxiety, water retention, snoring, hard pulse. But I never really get a change in libido it’s eq. So weird.
There is a fair bit of speculation that this is the case. Moreover, with scrotal cream DHT can get very high, which also counteracts estradiol, both in creation and in receptor binding.
It becomes a concern when you experience the side effects of high estrogen. For example I get crazy bloating when mine gets high - my stomach looks like it’s eight months pregnant if I don’t take an ai or lower my dose. In that case it is not a great idea to “let it go” plus then I get insomnia and ED at the same time ( sucks bad! )
I think it’s one of those things that needs to be tailored for EACH individual. There is no one size fits all for this- we are all different!
My advice is start an ai at a low dose ( .25mg at the time of injection ) wait eight weeks and get bloodwork. Keep a journal and document I use a scale of 1-10, with 10 being best )
Erections ( morning wood, random boners during day, etc.)
Mood
Sleep
Energy during the day
Workouts ( strength up or down, tired, etc )
Using this data plus your bloodwork results should help you tweak your dose up or down and get you closer to being dialed in.
Good Luck!
Indy
I agree with Indy for me being secondary doing 80 mgs of test C E3D. I take one pill of Aromasin the day of my shot that I do subQ into my belly fat. Doing labs every 12 weeks the E2 sanative test comes back at 12 and I feel dam good and I do gauge my E2 levels by TRT over 30 yrs.
pmgamer18
The Dht to e2 ratio probably matters even more for this than total T to e2 I would guess.
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
Have any of you guys really got dialed in though. Where you feel consistent and don’t have to tinker. I couldn’t stand the rollercoaster of trt. Even when I thought my protocol was good any little thing could throw it out of wack. I’d rather feel low grade ok then the ups and downs I was on
I would recommend daily injections, find a dose that keeps you on the upper range of FT, give it a try without AI first and measure your E2 and monitor your symptoms. IF after 4-6 weeks you dont feel good and have high E2 symptoms then try a very low dose AI and repeat all over again. One thing I did to avoid the rollercoaster was daily Anaztrozole in very tiny doses using the vodka method. Or if you can get the low dose capsules from the compounding pharmacies even better.
Basically if you are low SHBG you should feel good when your E2 is close to your SHBG levels. But since everybody is different you may achieve sweet spot slightly higher or lower.. but you have to star consevately and erring on the high side of E2 rather than the low side.
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
How long have you been stable feeling good using that method ?
with daily shots and daily anaztrozole I did not
I was able to felt stable most of time, when I hit the sweet spot I lasted for about a couple weeks the most. My past mistake is that I kept the anaztrozole constant and once I felt good I stopped monitoring believing I finally found my “right” dosage. However I did not take into account that My SHBG fluctuate +\- 2 pts so once that happens I should adjust my E2 levels accordingly and therefore the Anaztrozole dose.
I had planned to give a try with Defy so I am now following Dr Saya instructions no matter what but if after 1 year I dont improve I will shift to the above. In 5 years is the only way I had been stable and felt good. With time and practice I gave gained much more control of the roller coaster thing.
If you havent tried Defy with Dr Saya, I highly recommend it as well as many on this forum. I wasted 5 years with dozens of doctors and clinics and the protocol I got from Dr Saya I instantly git back my energy, however libido not yet since that is the thoughest one for me.
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
I don’t think I’m built mentally for it. It’s funny to say this but when I’m off trt. And I don’t feel good I just blame low t and kind of go about my day. Don’t get me wrong I have days where I constantly wonder if I should get back on. But when I’m on trt I become obsessed with every little detail of my health and I drive myself crazy.
ok at least you have an option. My natural T is 150 off TRT. I was able to have sex even without viagra but it felt like a chore for me and did not feel anything. But many people off TRT feel decent and ok and can still perform and feel ok so I can see that would be an option for some people if they dont find a food protocol that works for them.
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