What is Optimal Estradiol Range for Libido/Erection

[Vonko1988]

Your total T is 1400 at through. Is it hard to understand that even if this is happening in some exceptions, these guys were having high SHBG? Did you calculate your free T?

I didnt expect to have so big number. Only on test it would be no more than 1000. Seems hcg raises my test a lot . I may reduce it a bit the hcg but first I will talk with the doc. Maybe something like 75 ui daily... which is miniscure for most here, but seems my testicles respond to that shit

 

[sh1973]

Seems to me as young as you are and stating you respond to hcg that well that hcg mono or enclomiphene would be a better option for you. In nearly twelve years of reading about and researching trt I’ve never heard a person say they felt as good as when the felt good naturally. You’re pretty young to commit to a lifetime of hormone replacement but that’s totally tour choice.

 

[Vonko1988]

Seems to me as young as you are and stating you respond to hcg that well that hcg mono or enclomiphene would be a better option for you. In nearly twelve years of reading about and researching trt I’ve never heard a person say they felt as good as when the felt good naturally. You’re pretty young to commit to a lifetime of hormone replacement but that’s totally tour choice.

Im not going back to this road. I cannot find enclomiphene in my country and I do not believe it is long term solution. I prefer to use bio identical hormones. Ive tried clomid and It felt terrible. Never touching that shit again

HCG mono will not work well first because it raises my e2 too high and in comparison to test only and second very few people get well on HCG mono as well. And it is not about numbers only. Most men just feel better when raising their t levels with injecting exogenous t. Me too. I will continue my t therapy just seems I need to fine tune it a bit

 

[Gman86]

There are serious ignorance going on here.
Insomnia is labeled as the inability to fall asleep or to stay asleep.
I can fall asleep without any problem. The problem is that I wake up at least twice per night if I'm lucky.

Your total T is 1400 at through. Is it hard to understand that even if this is happening in some exceptions, these guys were having high SHBG? Did you calculate your free T?



Insulin resistance is a well documented condition in medical literature. While Androgen resistance is a rarity. Once again, justifying abnormalities with the exceptions.

How do you know it’s a rarity?

 

[Appassionato]

How do you know it’s a rarity?

I've read several studies about it, because a doctor once advised to do high dose injections of carnitine to increase the androgens receptors sensitivity.

Just Google it, you will find the studies.

 

[Gman86]

I've read several studies about it, because a doctor once advised to do high dose injections of carnitine to increase the androgens receptors sensitivity.

Just Google it, you will find the studies.

What did the studies show?

If the doctor was trying to increase androgen receptor sensitivity, then I assume that androgen resistance was enough of a problem for this doctor to want to find a treatment.

 

[Appassionato]

What did the studies show?

If the doctor was trying to increase androgen receptor sensitivity, then I assume that androgen resistance was enough of a problem for this doctor to want to find a treatment.

That it's a really rare condition in hypogonadal men treated with exogenous androgens.

They also found out that carnitine as I said has beneficial effect in increasing sensitivity and density of androgens receptors, especially in muscle tissues.

Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effects of feeding and L-carnitine. - PubMed - NCBI

So before jumping on non conventional administration of exogenous testosterone, you should try with carnitine.

It's just an excuse for many to raise their dose, expecting muscle growth and incredible sexual performance they never had.

 

[Gman86]

That it's a really rare condition in hypogonadal men treated with exogenous androgens.

They also found out that carnitine as I said has beneficial effect in increasing sensitivity and density of androgens receptors, especially in muscle tissues.

Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effects of feeding and L-carnitine. - PubMed - NCBI

So before jumping on non conventional administration of exogenous testosterone, you should try with carnitine.

It's just an excuse for many to raise their dose, expecting muscle growth and incredible sexual performance they never had.

Interesting. There’s no absolutes in HRT, and everyone has different goals. We can’t generalize when it comes to how HRT should be done, or the men on it. I think we should let men do whatever they want with their bodies. Whatever makes them happy. I don’t tell them how to live their life, what to eat, how to treat other people, what god to praise, and I also don’t care how they want to run their HRT. I’m just here to learn, and help people achieve happiness, mainly through my knowledge of hormones. I don’t even care if members on here want to tell other guys how to think and how they should run their HRT. I don’t personally do that, but if other members feel the need to do so, then that’s their right, and I respect it. Whatever makes them happy. Thanks for that info on androgen receptors.

 

[Appassionato]

Interesting. There’s no absolutes in HRT, and everyone has different goals. We can’t generalize when it comes to how HRT should be done, or the men on it. I think we should let men do whatever they want with their bodies. Whatever makes them happy. I don’t tell them how to live their life, what to eat, how to treat other people, what god to praise, and I also don’t care how they want to run their HRT. I’m just here to learn, and help people achieve happiness, mainly through my knowledge of hormones. I don’t even care if members on here want to tell other guys how to think and how they should run their HRT. I don’t personally do that, but if other members feel the need to do so, then that’s their right, and I respect it. Whatever makes them happy. Thanks for that info on androgen receptors.

I have hard times going along with this mentality, sorry. That's pure relativism and it's something I will keep arguing against.
As when someone is destroying himself with drugs addiction or alcohol, I will always try to persuade them they are doing the wrong thing.

In this case, this new thing of overdosing TRT, bringing it to the edge of juicing, not only is dangerous for the person running it, but also for the whole TRT community.
Remember that testosterone is already a demonised and over regulated substance.
Imagine what will happen when CVD starts spreading within people being treated with testosterone.

Anyway, the whole point of this discussion is because a user who started TRT yesterday and he's not even completely dialed in, came here instructing other people on how to run their protocol.
The funny thing is that he doesn't even know what he's saying, he's just parroting what other self proclaimed gurus are saying.

 

[Vonko1988]

That it's a really rare condition in hypogonadal men treated with exogenous androgens.

They also found out that carnitine as I said has beneficial effect in increasing sensitivity and density of androgens receptors, especially in muscle tissues.

Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effects of feeding and L-carnitine. - PubMed - NCBI

So before jumping on non conventional administration of exogenous testosterone, you should try with carnitine.

It's just an excuse for many to raise their dose, expecting muscle growth and incredible sexual performance they never had.

You cannot state it so absolutely. Everyone just needs different t amount to feel optimal. For example for free t, for me it may be 30, for you 20, for the next guy 40, for some 10. I know people with less testosterone before my pre TRT without symptoms

 

[Appassionato]

You cannot state it so absolutely. Everyone just needs different t amount to feel optimal. For example for free t, for me it may be 30, for you 20, for the next guy 40, for some 10. I know people with less testosterone before my pre TRT without symptoms

That's not the point of what I've said.
We were discussing about androgen resistance that has been mentioned by you, without even spending your time researching it.

 

[Vonko1988]

That's not the point of what I've said.
We were discussing about androgen resistance that has been mentioned by you, without even spending your time researching it.

No it makes exactly the point, read it again. You relate to androgen resistance again as some absolute value when we all have it to some degree.

 

[Appassionato]

No it makes exactly the point, read it again. You relate to androgen resistance again as some absolute value when we all have it to some degree.

You're making yourself a joke, please stop.
You got no idea of what you are talking about.
Please do your homework and go read the studies.

People will start making fun of you if you keep spreading your bro-science.

 

[Vonko1988]

You're making yourself a joke, please stop.
You got no idea of what you are talking about.
Please do your homework and go read the studies.

People will start making fun of you if you keep spreading your bro-science.

Ive read enough studies and case studies of TRT patients. Looks like you ve been too exposed to some of the absurdities in the endocrine society guidelines

 

[Charliebizz]

I have hard times going along with this mentality, sorry. That's pure relativism and it's something I will keep arguing against.
As when someone is destroying himself with drugs addiction or alcohol, I will always try to persuade them they are doing the wrong thing.

In this case, this new thing of overdosing TRT, bringing it to the edge of juicing, not only is dangerous for the person running it, but also for the whole TRT community.
Remember that testosterone is already a demonised and over regulated substance.
Imagine what will happen when CVD starts spreading within people being treated with testosterone.

Anyway, the whole point of this discussion is because a user who started TRT yesterday and he's not even completely dialed in, came here instructing other people on how to run their protocol.
The funny thing is that he doesn't even know what he's saying, he's just parroting what other self proclaimed gurus are saying.

thats what I’ve been fighting about in the past. We don’t need anymore negative press toward trt. And if you look at the gurus on the fb groups. They are legit jacked. Some even admit to using other steroids to get big.

but on the flip side a guy like me hasn’t seen much results from trt. With conventional doses. So I’m going to slowly work my way up and hope for symptom relief. But if I run into any problems like higher bp or my cbc and lipids get messed up I will dial it down. I’m honestly just looking to feel normal. So if it did take me to 200mg per week and all my labs are in line but my t levels were 1400 would that be wrong?

 

[Gman86]

thats what I’ve been fighting about in the past. We don’t need anymore negative press toward trt. And if you look at the gurus on the fb groups. They are legit jacked. Some even admit to using other steroids to get big.

but on the flip side a guy like me hasn’t seen much results from trt. With conventional doses. So I’m going to slowly work my way up and hope for symptom relief. But if I run into any problems like higher bp or my cbc and lipids get messed up I will dial it down. I’m honestly just looking to feel normal. So if it did take me to 200mg per week and all my labs are in line but my t levels were 1400 would that be wrong?

Of course not. Wrong is a personal ethical opinion anyways. Is it wrong to be prescribed testosterone, nandrolone and oxandrolone for your HRT, when they are all legal compounds that can be prescribed by your doctor? According to the U.S. government, the answer is no. According to some men, the answer is going to be no. According to other men, the answer is going to be yes.

Everyone is going to have different goals with HRT, depending on the way they grew up, their personality, their ethical beliefs, their lifestyle, what they do for work. The list goes on and on. But with you, clearly you just want to feel better and keep your health markers within a healthy range. So for you, it is absolutely right to use whatever dose you need, that’s going to make you feel better, and maintain your health, imo. A level of 1400 is nothing, when we’re talking about maintaining health. If that ends up being your total T level, you should have zero problem maintaining health markers within a healthy range at that testosterone level.

 

[Vonko1988]

So if it did take me to 200mg per week and all my labs are in line but my t levels were 1400 would that be wrong?

Nobody can answer you, and there is only one way to find out. 1400 should not be dangerous, provided blood picture stays in range. Just whatever change you make in your trt protocol give it enough time to work, 8 weeks at least. This is where most guys fail

 

[Appassionato]

Ive read enough studies and case studies of TRT patients.

Sure, like the one you posted previously that you didn't even understand.

but on the flip side a guy like me hasn’t seen much results from trt. With conventional doses. So I’m going to slowly work my way up and hope for symptom relief. But if I run into any problems like higher bp or my cbc and lipids get messed up I will dial it down. I’m honestly just looking to feel normal. So if it did take me to 200mg per week and all my labs are in line but my t levels were 1400 would that be wrong?

No one said you shouldn't try.
But usually sides exacerbates with higher dose.
The problem here is with people running abnormal hormones levels that haven't been observed in any young men. Both sex hormones and thyroid hormones.
What I've asked is a proof of this mythological 2000 ng/dL that men were running 50-100 years ago, no one managed to provide any evidence for that.
Yet the average life span for a man in 1850 was 42 years.

Of course not. Wrong is a personal ethical opinion anyways.

That's probably the biggest cancer of modern society. This is a huge topic and not relevant to this thread.
Only thing I can say is that there can be only one truth, or it ceases automatically to be the truth. Aristotle's law of non-contradiction.

 

[Charliebizz]

Of course not. Wrong is a personal ethical opinion anyways. Is it wrong to be prescribed testosterone, nandrolone and oxandrolone for your HRT, when they are all legal compounds that can be prescribed by your doctor? According to the U.S. government, the answer is no. According to some men, the answer is going to be no. According to other men, the answer is going to be yes.

Everyone is going to have different goals with HRT, depending on the way they grew up, their personality, their ethical beliefs, their lifestyle, what they do for work. The list goes on and on. But with you, clearly you just want to feel better and keep your health markers within a healthy range. So for you, it is absolutely right to use whatever dose you need, that’s going to make you feel better, and maintain your health, imo. A level of 1400 is nothing, when we’re talking about maintaining health. If that ends up being your total T level, you should have zero problem maintaining health markers within a healthy range at that testosterone level.

i get it but unfortunately that’s not the way health care is structured in the U.S. hence why most of the hrt docs do not accept insurance. So well from a ethics stand point sure anyone is free to do what they like. But hrt already has the stigma attached to it.

Of course not. Wrong is a personal ethical opinion anyways. Is it wrong to be prescribed testosterone, nandrolone and oxandrolone for your HRT, when they are all legal compounds that can be prescribed by your doctor? According to the U.S. government, the answer is no. According to some men, the answer is going to be no. According to other men, the answer is going to be yes.

Everyone is going to have different goals with HRT, depending on the way they grew up, their personality, their ethical beliefs, their lifestyle, what they do for work. The list goes on and on. But with you, clearly you just want to feel better and keep your health markers within a healthy range. So for you, it is absolutely right to use whatever dose you need, that’s going to make you feel better, and maintain your health, imo. A level of 1400 is nothing, when we’re talking about maintaining health. If that ends up being your total T level, you should have zero problem maintaining health markers within a healthy range at that testosterone level.

Of course not. Wrong is a personal ethical opinion anyways. Is it wrong to be prescribed testosterone, nandrolone and oxandrolone for your HRT, when they are all legal compounds that can be prescribed by your doctor? According to the U.S. government, the answer is no. According to some men, the answer is going to be no. According to other men, the answer is going to be yes.

Everyone is going to have different goals with HRT, depending on the way they grew up, their personality, their ethical beliefs, their lifestyle, what they do for work. The list goes on and on. But with you, clearly you just want to feel better and keep your health markers within a healthy range. So for you, it is absolutely right to use whatever dose you need, that’s going to make you feel better, and maintain your health, imo. A level of 1400 is nothing, when we’re talking about maintaining health. If that ends up being your total T level, you should have zero problem maintaining health markers within a healthy range at that testosterone level.

Sure, like the one you posted previously that you didn't even understand.



No one said you shouldn't try.
But usually sides exacerbates with higher dose.
The problem here is with people running abnormal hormones levels that haven't been observed in any young men. Both sex hormones and thyroid hormones.
What I've asked is a proof of this mythological 2000 ng/dL that men were running 50-100 years ago, no one managed to provide any evidence for that.
Yet the average life span for a man in 1850 was 42 years.



That's probably the biggest cancer of modern society. This is a huge topic and not relevant to this thread.
Only thing I can say is that there can be only one truth, or it ceases automatically to be the truth. Aristotle's law of non-contradiction.

brother I’m with you 100%. And I pretty much know I wouldn’t be able to run my levels too high with out sides. A few years ago I was on 120mg per week and had all sorts of sides. Right now I’m doing ok on 110 mg but I’m only 2 weeks in coming from a month of 4 pumps of androgel

and while I don’t disagree with some of what gman said. The ins. Company’s and fda set the rules. And the stigma has been attached to trt forever and we’ve been fighting to legitimize trt. Then you have juiced up docs and name of the practice is kick some mass. It’s just not a good look for trt being legitimized. That’s all I’m saying. If you told me keeping my levels at 3000 and I could live Stallone’s life guaranteed to make it to 70s easy I would say sign me up. But that’s not always the case. At the end of the day it’s not a matter of opinion it’s the current state of the health care system

 

[Vonko1988]

Sure, like the one you posted previously that you didn't even understand.



No one said you shouldn't try.
But usually sides exacerbates with higher dose.
The problem here is with people running abnormal hormones levels that haven't been observed in any young men. Both sex hormones and thyroid hormones.
What I've asked is a proof of this mythological 2000 ng/dL that men were running 50-100 years ago, no one managed to provide any evidence for that.
Yet the average life span for a man in 1850 was 42 years.



That's probably the biggest cancer of modern society. This is a huge topic and not relevant to this thread.
Only thing I can say is that there can be only one truth, or it ceases automatically to be the truth. Aristotle's law of non-contradiction.

Arguing with you is like arguing with a FDA evangelist.

First as I understand you are having even worse sleeping issues than me, but you lecture me mine are caused by my “supra” levels?

Second, 1400 total t is not supra and that is a total bulshit. Only a clueless doctor with zero understanding of hormones can say that looking at the papers without realizing 1400 was well within range ten years ago. So if tomorrow the upper range became 700, what we should lower the doses. Are you crazy?

Do the TRT however you see it right, I will do it following the guidelines of dr Neil Rouzier, dr Keith Nichols, Rob Kominiarek and other doctors I respect. For me Neil Rouzier is a genius and everyone in our community can learn a lot from him(I wish I could go take his training).

I see this way of doing TRT makes me feel better, resolves my symptoms and this is the reason I committed to life of injecting every single day. And Im more than glad I did it, best thing I ever did in my life