Trying to control E2 via Fat loss, Daily injections, Calcium D-Glucarate, Metforming and Cialis

[IronKnight]

After reading/hearing about the dangers (especially bone loss) of long term Anastrozol usage I have committed myself to control E2 using the following approach:
1) Lose more body fat: Already lost 35-40kg, but need to lose around 5-10 more to get into the single digits. Some people report solving E2 issues at 11-12% body fat, so will try to get down there or below and then have a DEXA scan before Xmas
2) Daily injections: I am switching from [ 3x50mg T.Enanthate + 390IUs of HCG ] / week (WFS) to daily injections [ 20mg T.Enanthate + 130 IUs ] / daily because I noticed my Total T ranging from the 700s (before 50mg + 390 IUs injection) into 1300-1600+ 2-3 hours after the injection on the same day, with E2 following in the 60s (no sensitive test where I live). <-- started on 2018-11-02
3) Calcium D-Glucarate: I have read reports of this helping people although it is quite expensive, currently trying to figure out a working dose, will test this Friday at 1000mg / day (first week of Daily injections + No Anastrozol + 1000mg of Calcium D-Glucarate / day) and increase from there.
4) Metformin: I got a script from my doc this week for 1000mg once a day (Glucophage XR, an extended release variant, seems better, also interesting). Although I want this mainly for fat loss help / insulin sensitivity improvements and overall health, it also seems to inhibit aromatase and should therefore help to lower E2. Anybody has any blood work numbers of Metforming lowering E2? <-- will start this on Saturday (2018-11-10)
5) Cialis: I also managed to get a script for Cialis 5mg daily, but will try with 2.5mg daily first (splitting the tablets with a knife), this is very expensive and maybe the lower dosage is enough for me, as the half live is 36 hours this builds on your system and 2.5mg daily might become around 3-4mg in strength after a week or so. The hope is to save money, lower the chance of side effects, benefit from all the blood flow, BPH protection, etc. benefits and its reported mild help lowering E2. <-- will start this on Saturday (2018-11-10)

First question:
What baseline blood work, etc. should I take on Friday before I start Cialis and Metformin?
The following comes to mind, anything else?
- Total T
- Free T
- E2
- Fasted glucose
- Fasted insulin
- HbA1c
- CRP (Cialis is reported to lower this)
- PSA
- IGF-1 (supposedly influenced by Metformin)
- B12 and Folate are currently through the roof (checked last week), so no need to measure again
- Cholesterol HDL, LDL and Triglicerides (dropping Anastrozol should help HDL)
- [ Take blood pressure at current body weight, as Cialis may lower this ]
- Anything else???

Will keep you guys posted with my lab results, it's going to be an interesting journey
Thanks!

 

[Vince Carter]

With the amount of things youre changing at one-time you'll never know what worked and what didn't.

 

[IronKnight]

True, but high E2 will make fat loss more difficult and I want to hit the single body fat digits in December, I'm pretty confident the combined approach will solve this in the next few weeks, while changing one variable at a time would take months. Will make less changes and measure the daily injection spike and E2 later. The main worry now is where E2 will end up without Anastrozol (first test this Friday) and bring that down to "reasonable" ASAP.

Clarification:

Changes last week (and measuring results this Friday):
1) Drop Anastrozol
2) Switch to daily injections
(was already using Calcium D-Glucarate together with Anastrozol)

Planned changes for next week (and measuring results on Friday next week):
1) Add Metformin
2) Add Cialis
3) Maybe increase Calcium D-Glucarate to 2000mg/day if E2 is too high this Friday

For controlling E2 I expect the help of Metformin and Cialis to be minimal, with Calcium D-Glucarate being the main thing getting this under control, this will be confirmed (or not) as I continue to increase the Calcium D-Glucarate dosages until E2 is in range, I also hope to drop fat as fast as possible in the meantime as well.

 

[Vince Carter]

CDG isn't going to reduce your E, it could help with the symptoms but it will not and neither will DIM reduce your Estrogen.

But best wishes I shall refrain from pissing on your work, its well thought out and your committed to it, let us know how it works!

 

[IronKnight]

re CDG not working, I've heard a few docs (including Dr. Crisler, found the quote! ) on the TOT Revolution podcast saying that it helps the body get rid of estrogen.

Prior to that, I gathered the following evidence, I hope my blood work confirms this:

Calcium D-Glucarate at normal dosage like the above will only change your estradiol 5-10 pg/ml - Calcium D-Glucarate Lowers Estradiol
Also, as an fyi, the poster mentioned above said that "I am taking Source Naturals 500mg. Morning and Evening, and Indole-3-Carbinol 200mg. with lunch. [1] Here is his brand: Source Naturals Calcium D-Glucarate 500mg, 120 Tablets. - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&tag=httpwwwpeakte-20&linkId=XENIVE63UWF5MPSC

- In one study, calcium-d-glucarate was able to reduce the number of estrogen receptors by 48 percent. It’s also been shown to lower serum estrogen levels by 23 percent. - 4 Reasons Bulletproof (and Paleo) People Should Take Calcium-D-Glucarate

- In humans, CDG lowers cholesterol by 12 percent, and LDL cholesterol by 28 percent. It can also lower triglycerides up to 43 percent. - 4 Reasons Bulletproof (and Paleo) People Should Take Calcium-D-Glucarate
/CDG is not arbitrarily playing with cholesterol numbers like statins. It decreases stress on the liver which lowers your need for cholesterol, especially LDL cholesterol./

Dosing:
A normal detox dose is 500-1000 mg. People with high estrogen may benefit from taking as much as 3000-4500 mg a day – ask your doctor before adding any supplement to your regimen. - 4 Reasons Bulletproof (and Paleo) People Should Take Calcium-D-Glucarate

/He said to use Calcium d-Glucarate. I have been using it alone to manage my estrogen over the last month, and at a Total Test level of 1010, my estrogen is now between 30 and 36 at trough using 3000mg of Calcium D-Glucarate a day. I use 1500mg in the morning, and 1500mg in the evening
[...]
My protocol is 2 injections per week, every 3.5 days. I inject 70mg x 2, for a total of 140mg per week.
[...]
I honestly believe it is doing something, as I was at 39 at 100mg, and I'm now at 30-36 at 140mg/ - Calcium d-Glucarate for managing estrogen
http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GFSVSW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

/Calcium D glucarate is good stuff for an OTC AI; it really works, or at least I could swear I felt it working. But I had to take quite substantial doses to feel its effects, which would've made it very expensive in the long run./ - calcium d-glucarate

/right now i'm taking four pills of the calcium d-glucarate daily, two in the morning and two at night). Super happy to plan for augmentation later this fall now that I won't have to worry as much about my natural tissue blowing up in the off season now that I have my estrogen levels under control!/ - 2000mg / day - https://www.amazon.de/Amazing-Formu...LUCARATE&language=en_GB&qid=1528798571&sr=8-1

 

[Vince Carter]

Its great that you believe that.

 

[IronKnight]

Calcium D-Glucarate at normal dosage like the above will only change your estradiol 5-10 pg/ml - Calcium D-Glucarate Lowers Estradiol

/He said to use Calcium d-Glucarate. I have been using it alone to manage my estrogen over the last month, and at a Total Test level of 1010, my estrogen is now between 30 and 36 at trough using 3000mg of Calcium D-Glucarate a day. I use 1500mg in the morning, and 1500mg in the evening
[...]
My protocol is 2 injections per week, every 3.5 days. I inject 70mg x 2, for a total of 140mg per week.
[...]
I honestly believe it is doing something, as I was at 39 at 100mg, and I'm now at 30-36 at 140mg/ - Calcium d-Glucarate for managing estrogen

 

[Pringle]

Understanding we all respond differently....I initially tried a regimen of DIM/CDG/zinc that did absolutely nothing in managing E2 symptoms or levels. Started Anastrozole and learned quickly I was an over responder and settled in at .125 E3.5D with my T shot. Wanted to rid myself of taking th AI, so 8 weeks ago I went to daily injections and now take nothing else to control E2.....labs are in line and symptom free. Dailies alone my be your answer....it was mine.

 

[Tman]

It seems like you are making a lot of changes which could lead to chasing the proverbial tail. I hope it works for you because getting dialed in can be difficulty for some and easy for others.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Metformin, testosterone, hcg, exercise, low glycemic/high fiber/high protein diet are known to decrease weight. All others listed are probably a waste of time. But more power to you for trying.

 

[Smokey]

After reading/hearing about the dangers (especially bone loss) of long term Anastrozol usage I have committed myself to control E2 using the following approach:
1) Lose more body fat: Already lost 35-40kg, but need to lose around 5-10 more to get into the single digits. Some people report solving E2 issues at 11-12% body fat, so will try to get down there or below and then have a DEXA scan before Xmas
2) Daily injections: I am switching from [ 3x50mg T.Enanthate + 390IUs of HCG ] / week (WFS) to daily injections [ 20mg T.Enanthate + 130 IUs ] / daily because I noticed my Total T ranging from the 700s (before 50mg + 390 IUs injection) into 1300-1600+ 2-3 hours after the injection on the same day, with E2 following in the 60s (no sensitive test where I live). <-- started on 2018-11-02
3) Calcium D-Glucarate: I have read reports of this helping people although it is quite expensive, currently trying to figure out a working dose, will test this Friday at 1000mg / day (first week of Daily injections + No Anastrozol + 1000mg of Calcium D-Glucarate / day) and increase from there.
4) Metformin: I got a script from my doc this week for 1000mg once a day (Glucophage XR, an extended release variant, seems better, also interesting). Although I want this mainly for fat loss help / insulin sensitivity improvements and overall health, it also seems to inhibit aromatase and should therefore help to lower E2. Anybody has any blood work numbers of Metforming lowering E2? <-- will start this on Saturday (2018-11-10)
5) Cialis: I also managed to get a script for Cialis 5mg daily, but will try with 2.5mg daily first (splitting the tablets with a knife), this is very expensive and maybe the lower dosage is enough for me, as the half live is 36 hours this builds on your system and 2.5mg daily might become around 3-4mg in strength after a week or so. The hope is to save money, lower the chance of side effects, benefit from all the blood flow, BPH protection, etc. benefits and its reported mild help lowering E2. <-- will start this on Saturday (2018-11-10)

First question:
What baseline blood work, etc. should I take on Friday before I start Cialis and Metformin?
The following comes to mind, anything else?
- Total T
- Free T
- E2
- Fasted glucose
- Fasted insulin
- HbA1c
- CRP (Cialis is reported to lower this)
- PSA
- IGF-1 (supposedly influenced by Metformin)
- B12 and Folate are currently through the roof (checked last week), so no need to measure again
- Cholesterol HDL, LDL and Triglicerides (dropping Anastrozol should help HDL)
- [ Take blood pressure at current body weight, as Cialis may lower this ]
- Anything else???

Will keep you guys posted with my lab results, it's going to be an interesting journey
Thanks!

I just finished a 7 week trial for daily injections and it soared my E2 to 71! I went with 18mg daily then to 16 mg and daily 100iu hcg and my free T was 24 total T was 1235 and E sensitive was 71. Daily T failed me to control Estrogen. However it did control hematocrit levels at 46.

 

[IronKnight]

Thanks for the replies so far!
NOTE: I am aiming for E2 around 28-32 which were my range before starting TRT.

Protocol comparison:
2018-10-03 - 150mg/week = 3x50mg T.Enanthate + 390 HCG IUs together in the same injection + Anastrozol 0.75/w (0.25 x monday morning, wednesday evening, saturday morning)
2018-10-31 - 150mg/week = 3x50mg T.Enanthate + 390 HCG IUs together in the same injection + Anastrozol 1/w (0.25 x monday, wednesday, friday, sunday morning) + 1000mg CDG (500mg morning + 500mg evening)
2018-11-09 - 140mg/week = 7x20mg T.Enanthate + 130 HCG IUs together in the same injection + 1000mg CDG (500mg morning + 500mg evening)

So here is the preliminary blood work data so far:
- 15 pg/ml E2 decrease from switching to daily injections (i.e. 61 vs. 46 at peak)
- The T & E2 spike after injection is much lower with daily injections, resulting in a lot less E2 being generated as well

Will have more blood work data next week, for the following protocol change:
2018-11-16 - 140mg/week = 7x20mg T.Enanthate + 130 HCG IUs together in the same injection + 2000mg CDG (1000mg morning + 1000mg evening) + 1000mg Metformin/day (1 x morning, extended release) + 2.5mg Cialis/day (1 x morning)

Also implementing an extended fast currently, so I can hopefully drop fat more quickly, the weather is finally getting cold so that should help as well, let's see

 

[IronKnight]

ok, today I tested on my new protocol:
2018-11-16 - 140mg/week = 7x20mg T.Enanthate + 130 HCG IUs together in the same injection + 2000mg CDG (1000mg morning + 1000mg evening) + 1000mg Metformin/day (1 x morning, extended release) + 2.5mg Cialis/day (1 x morning)

And this seemed to do the trick, looks like I nailed E2 this time, will try to catch a higher spike next week testing ~5 hours after injection (today i tried 3h 40mins after the daily injection, to catch the T & E2 spikes).
Regarding symptoms I have noticed better erections, libido and mood this week. In the last few months I had multiple PMS-like mood swings that make me appreciate my wife is still with me :/

New Protocol comparison:
2018-10-03 - 150mg/week = 3x50mg T.Enanthate + 390 HCG IUs together in the same injection + Anastrozol 0.75/w (0.25 x monday morning, wednesday evening, saturday morning)
2018-10-31 - 150mg/week = 3x50mg T.Enanthate + 390 HCG IUs together in the same injection + Anastrozol 1/w (0.25 x monday, wednesday, friday, sunday morning) + 1000mg CDG (500mg morning + 500mg evening)
2018-11-09 - 140mg/week = 7x20mg T.Enanthate + 130 HCG IUs together in the same injection + 1000mg CDG (500mg morning + 500mg evening)
2018-11-16 - 140mg/week = 7x20mg T.Enanthate + 130 HCG IUs together in the same injection + 2000mg CDG (1000mg morning + 1000mg evening) + 1000mg Metformin/day (1 x morning, extended release) + 2.5mg Cialis/day (1 x morning)

Updated comparison data:

Now, as you said, I don't know if all is working or if it's just X or Y or the whole combination of my new changes (i.e. added +1000mg CDG + 1000mg Metformin + 2.5mg Cialis this week), but this combo seems to work and I will stay on it for a while, might try dropping CDG down the line to verify if it is the main contributor or not.

Result summary:

• 15pg/ml E2 reduction from switching to daily injections
• 17pg/ml E2 reduction from some/all of [ 2000mg CDG + 1000mg Metformin + 2.5 Cialis ] / day. CDG = 1000mg in the morning + 1000mg in the evening.

 

[fifty]

What do cdg and metformin help with? I see these mentioned alot but am still fuzzy on what they can help.

 

[IronKnight]

re CDG please see previous success / data from other people listed here

Metformin: Because it reduces aromatase activity, from study linked above:
/In conclusion, plasma levels of metformin have a dual therapeutic action, first by directly inhibiting cell proliferation which can be augmented by rapamycin analogues, and secondly, by inhibiting aromatase activity and reducing the local conversion of androgens to E2. /

Cialis: I don't have the studies handy but Jay Campbell mentioned Cialis was found to lower E2 in at least 3-4 studies and there's also a reported -5pg/ml E2 decrease in this forum:
/I just got my bloodwork back and I wanted to share the results of daily 5mg cialis. My estrogen levels dropped 5 points and my PSA also dropped /

 

[Robotics]

very interesting thread. any updates?

 

[Vince]

Testosterone:estradiol ratio changes associated with long-term tadalafil administration: a pilot study. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Nelson Vergel]

So much trouble for reducing a hormone that is responsible for most of the benefits typically associated with testosterone. Just crazy!