FAT LOSS DIFFICULTY

[Guided_by_Voices]

A few comments on your first post:

• I would definitely try a trial of Clomid before full TRT. It worked well for me for several years before I went on TRT. I have not heard of consistent success with enclomifene.
• I went through a somewhat similar process as you regarding fat loss and it is very similar to the theorists who talk about a “set point” where the body tries to defend a particular fat level. Below are some things that seemed to help me for your consideration.
• Frequent small meals seem to work better for many people. I know the arguments against this, but the bottom line is that it is worth trying. It seems to work well for me and I seem to be leaner when I am eating that way.
• Longer fasts rather than just time restricted feeding can be very effective and break a fat loss barrier. Fasting for 3-5 days seems to be much more effective than cutting calories or daily fasts
• I would read-up on micro-biome health as there is growing evidence that the gut bacteria have a big influence on how many calories are absorbed. Listen to Joel Greene’s podcasts with Ben Greenfield for example on this topic.
• While I am a huge believer in low carb for many people, there are some people who do better on a more balanced diet as long as the carbs are not excessive and you may be one of those people. You might also try a sensible carnivore diet for a while.
• Make your “cardio” HIIT training. In the words of Mark Sisson, “make your short, hard workouts shorter and harder and your long, easy workouts longer and easier.”
• Regarding soft tissue injuries, there’s a lot that can be said here but try avoiding max-effort lifts and increase the volume of your overall work. I find that something like 8 sets of 2 at 90% works well for the big lifts.
• Above all, keep experimenting to see what will eventually work

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Also, 5 workouts a week screams overtraining which screams Cortisol, and elevated cortisol is well-known to promote fat-retention. I would cut back to no more than three and replace the others with some walking until you are seeing fat-loss. Also, one of the reasons I am on TRT, and clomid before that, is that there is no way I could sustain my workout/activity schedule without becoming over-trained before I had a mechanism to keep my hormones up.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

@mcs

Sorry for jumping in late.

What are your triglycerides? How about your A1c?

 

[sammmy]

Here is my advice based on my own experience. I am 48yo male, lean when I follow my rules, and become skinny fat when I break them - I am a sugar addict.

1. Walk continuously 1-1.5 hours a day (7000 - 1000 steps counted by phone) in a nice nature area. Weight training does not burn a lot of calories, walking does.

2. Drink a cup of green tea, at breakfast and lunch. It increases metabolism and makes you feel more satisfied for longer periods without food. I use sugar substitute sucralose with the tea.

3. Protein shake in the afternoon if you feel hunger.

4. Do not eat refined sugar or sugary fruits. Sugar stimulates appetite and leads to eating more food and sugar. I use a sugar substitute sucralose instead.

5. Do not eat refined sugar and any sugar substitute at dinner - both will make you crave even more food, creating a viscious cycle. Eat bland foods at dinner: eggs, bread, beans, lentils, eggs, soups, chicken, tomatoes. Get a sufficient amount of calories in the dinner so that you do not feel hungry hours later - you cannot fool the body with 300 calories at dinner.

Just want to clarify that the combo green tea with red ginseng is WAY more stimulating than plain green tea. Apparently green tea is synergistic with red ginseng. May affect sleep negatively.

Benner sells Green Tea with Lemon and Ginseng that I highly recommend, can be found at Aldi stores for dirt cheap:

 

[bleedy]

RMR: ~ 1500
TDEE: 2500
If I consume >1800kcals/day, I will put on both LBM and BF regardless of training.
I'm already @ 55% fats. Fats being the most calorie dense macro @ 9g/kcal, I will balloon up even more. I think the problem is that hormone output is not optimized. For example, my TSH is in the 4s despite taking thyroid replacement.

You might be right about the protein intake. My BUN is consistently elevated and my fasting glucose is always high despite being low carb. Excess protein = gluconeogenesis = higher glucose readings.

Some times we can't see the forest through the trees. My two cents:

If TDEE is 2500Kcals/day then I don't understand how anyone could not lose weight consuming 1800Kcals/day.

Most people, myself included, seriously underestimate their calories consumed. If I'm trying to lose weight, I have to be strict with my food scale and cronometer use regardless of the type of diet I'm trying. Without tracking, I reliably overeat over time even though I'm convinced that I'm not.

On the calorie expenditure side, I wear a Fitbit and it wildly overstates calories burned. For instance walking a mile will burn on average about 100 calories but my Fitbit will report 200+. As a result, I use the Fitbit as a relative measure of my calorie expenditure only, not to track TDEE.

I say all this to suggest that before you dive down too many rabbit holes or spend tons of $$, maybe you should adopt a hyper strict way of tracking the calories you consume, if only for a month or two. Also your TDEE may be overstated (?) A TDEE of 2500 while consuming 1800 that doesn't lead to weight loss is not logical.

Best of luck and hopefully this didn't offend.

 

[bleedy]

RMR: ~ 1500
TDEE: 2500
If I consume >1800kcals/day, I will put on both LBM and BF regardless of training.
I'm already @ 55% fats. Fats being the most calorie dense macro @ 9g/kcal, I will balloon up even more. I think the problem is that hormone output is not optimized. For example, my TSH is in the 4s despite taking thyroid replacement.

You might be right about the protein intake. My BUN is consistently elevated and my fasting glucose is always high despite being low carb. Excess protein = gluconeogenesis = higher glucose readings.

Some times we can't see the forest through the trees. My two cents:

If TDEE is 2500Kcals/day then I don't understand how anyone could not lose weight consuming 1800Kcals/day.

Most people, myself included, seriously underestimate their calories consumed. If I'm trying to lose weight, I have to be strict with my food scale and cronometer use regardless of the type of diet I'm trying. Without tracking, I reliably overeat over time even though I'm convinced that I'm not.

On the calorie expenditure side, I wear a Fitbit and it wildly overstates calories burned. For instance walking a mile will burn on average about 100 calories but my Fitbit will report 200+. As a result, I use the Fitbit as a relative measure of my calorie expenditure only, not to track TDEE.

I say all this to suggest that before you dive down too many rabbit holes or spend tons of $$, maybe you should adopt a hyper strict way of tracking the calories you consume, if only for a month or two. Also your TDEE may be overstated (?) A TDEE of 2500 while consuming 1800 that doesn't lead to weight loss is not logical.

Best of luck and hopefully this didn't offend.

 

[sammmy]

Another important thing when trying to lose weight is to not allow constipation. You have to pass a stool every day.

 

[mcs]

Revisiting the fat loss conundrum: Based on my above stats, how is it possible I could gain so much weight fat on only 2000kcals/day avg??

 

[Systemlord]

Revisiting the fat loss conundrum: Based on my above stats, how is it possible I could gain so much weight fat on only 2000kcals/day avg??

One long-term study found that long-term testosterone replacement therapy was associated with sustained weight loss. In the study, men with low testosterone were given the option to receive testosterone replacement injections. Those in the TRT group on average lost 20% of their body weight.

You are operating at a big disadvantage with your testosterone in the gutter. I'm losing weight without even trying on Jatenzo, lost 2 inches off my waist in less than 2 months. I would never have been able to lose this weight without adequate testosterone.

Effects of long-term treatment with testosterone on weight and waist size in 411 hypogonadal men with obesity classes I-III: observational data from two registry studies

Long-term testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) up to 5 years has been shown to produce progressive and sustainable weight loss (WL) in hypogonadal men. This study investigated effects of long-term TRT up to 8 years in hypogonadal men with different ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Testosterone and weight loss: the evidence

The purpose of this article is to examine the contemporary data linking testosterone therapy in overweight and obese men with testosterone deficiency to increased lean body mass, decreased fat mass, improvement in overall body composition and sustained ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

​

 

[bleedy]

Revisiting the fat loss conundrum: Based on my above stats, how is it possible I could gain so much weight fat on only 2000kcals/day avg??

Hi MCS,

You are not alone my friend. I'm 59 y/o, 5' 11" and currently 202#'s and I would like to get down to 185. Cronometer has my BMR pegged at 1754. I started dieting a month ago and have been consuming 1250kcals/day. I lost 5 pounds so far (from 207 to 202) all in the first week. I'm pretty sure that's due to the whoosh effect of low carb. My Fitbit say's I've averaged just over 2500 total kcals burned per day. I weight lift 3 days/week and recently added 30 minutes of cardio after lifting sessions. I do think the Fitbit wildly overstates calories burned during exercise. I'm frustrated as hell too. On 1250 Kcals I can feel my energy level decline and it has had some impact on my lifting so I'm increasing cals up to 1750 to see how that goes.

This may be interesting to you. Are you familiar with VO2max? It's measured in the lab and typically useful for endurance athletes. As part of this test they also measure your fax oxidation rate with respect to exercise intensity. The max rate of fat oxidation is called FatMax. A highly trained athlete will have rates of fat oxidation from .2g/min to .75g/min (typical). So 460 grams per pound means to burn that pound of fat will take 615 to 2300 minutes! I don't know if this is true but I do know it's relatively easy to lose weight but really hard to burn fat!

 

[Sanqrol]

you're at that age when it's getting harder to lose weight

 

[bleedy]

To put a positive spin on it, our bodies spend years optimizing it's resistance to food famines!

 

[ZeymbeerKaris]

Because of our ignorance, we can cause harm to our bodies.

 

[Coopsdaddy]

Well you may try upping carbs and lower fats,everyone thinks keto is the ticket.Theres a reason that most bodybuilder dont do keto.Just be smart and choose good carbs and maybe use the bulk of them after training.
To much fat leads me to always be hungry and not satisfied,everyone’s different.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Diet:
I have by default been eating a HPKD (High Protein Ketogenic Diet) - avg 2000kcals/day.
Macros @ 30-35% protein/10% carbs/50-55% fats. It's tough to get enough macros and micros with anything <2000 kcals/day for extended periods of time, especially if you train as much as I do. I eat two main meals/day.

One of the 1st issues I see is HPKD 30-35% protein. One of my associates is an expert in this field, Dr. Jeff Volek and he works with Dr. Steven Phinney. A ketogenic diet is not high protein. Voleck says in order to get in ketosis you must do the following: consume less than 10% of your calories from carbohydrates or < 50g of carbs total. You must also not consumer more than 20% of your calories from protein, which come to 1.2 - 2g/kg/bw (no more than 150g total). Total fat must be > 150g/d

* Make sure you are getting adequate sodium 3000-5000mg/d
* Adequate potassium (vegies/broth) 3000-4000mg/300-500mg magnesium
* Avoid polyunsaturated fats
* Saturated fats OK

So for a 2000 kcal diet
Carbs - <50g
Protein - 150g
Fat - ~153g

When you take in too much protein in a ketogenic diet, the extra protein will be converted to glucose in a process called gluconeogenesis, the formation of glucose which will then put you over the 50g carbohydrate limit and kick you out of ketosis. Since these results are very individual you may need to drop the carbs down to 20-30g. So a ketogenic diet is NOT high protein but high fat. Get some keto strips and measure you urine ketone levels.

Ok. I realize that it's 80% diet and 20% exercise to recomp (lose FAT while retaining as much lean mass as possible). But...

Actually it is not 80:20, exercise is just as important as diet. Much of the fat/calories you burn should be from exercise and not diet. Key in your and then exercise. It is like a slice of pie, 1/3 is exercise, 1/3 is diet and 1/3 is rest.

Hopefully you are seeing a physician for your metabolic challenges. Taking thyroid meds with no experience using them can really screw things up, Also your T levels seems a little bit low.

If you are interested in going to a cyclical ketogenic diet, the ketogenic day remain as I posted above. The only difference is you lower the fat and increase carbs on 1-2 days a week.

 

[mcs]

One long-term study found that long-term testosterone replacement therapy was associated with sustained weight loss. In the study, men with low testosterone were given the option to receive testosterone replacement injections. Those in the TRT group on average lost 20% of their body weight.

You are operating at a big disadvantage with your testosterone in the gutter. I'm losing weight without even trying on Jatenzo, lost 2 inches off my waist in less than 2 months. I would never have been able to lose this weight without adequate testosterone.

Effects of long-term treatment with testosterone on weight and waist size in 411 hypogonadal men with obesity classes I-III: observational data from two registry studies

Long-term testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) up to 5 years has been shown to produce progressive and sustainable weight loss (WL) in hypogonadal men. This study investigated effects of long-term TRT up to 8 years in hypogonadal men with different ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Testosterone and weight loss: the evidence

The purpose of this article is to examine the contemporary data linking testosterone therapy in overweight and obese men with testosterone deficiency to increased lean body mass, decreased fat mass, improvement in overall body composition and sustained ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

​

Why oral TRT and not injectable?

 

[mcs]

One of the 1st issues I see is HPKD 30-35% protein. One of my associates is an expert in this field, Dr. Jeff Volek and he works with Dr. Steven Phinney. A ketogenic diet is not high protein. Voleck says in order to get in ketosis you must do the following: consume less than 10% of your calories from carbohydrates or < 50g of carbs total. You must also not consumer more than 20% of your calories from protein, which come to 1.2 - 2g/kg/bw (no more than 150g total). Total fat must be > 150g/d

* Make sure you are getting adequate sodium 3000-5000mg/d
* Adequate potassium (vegies/broth) 3000-4000mg/300-500mg magnesium
* Avoid polyunsaturated fats
* Saturated fats OK

So for a 2000 kcal diet
Carbs - <50g
Protein - 150g
Fat - ~153g

When you take in too much protein in a ketogenic diet, the extra protein will be converted to glucose in a process called gluconeogenesis, the formation of glucose which will then put you over the 50g carbohydrate limit and kick you out of ketosis. Since these results are very individual you may need to drop the carbs down to 20-30g. So a ketogenic diet is NOT high protein but high fat. Get some keto strips and measure you urine ketone levels.



Actually it is not 80:20, exercise is just as important as diet. Much of the fat/calories you burn should be from exercise and not diet. Key in your and then exercise. It is like a slice of pie, 1/3 is exercise, 1/3 is diet and 1/3 is rest.

Hopefully you are seeing a physician for your metabolic challenges. Taking thyroid meds with no experience using them can really screw things up, Also your T levels seems a little bit low.

If you are interested in going to a cyclical ketogenic diet, the ketogenic day remain as I posted above. The only difference is you lower the fat and increase carbs on 1-2 days a week.

Thanks for your input.

I have been familiar with Volek/Phinney's work for some time and am more than aware of the effects of gluconeogenesis. While I think that the science has merit, and perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think that strict keto is sustainable for long periods of time and definitely not a way to go if you are trying to maintain/build lean mass or prevent sarcopenia as we age. Adequate protein intake to the tune of 1g/pound of body weight is still a good rule of thumb. Yes, perhaps CKD with carb refeeds is the key. Saturated fats are also something to watch for if you have the ACE and FTO genetic polymorphisms in which keto diets can actually be detrimental. I wonder what affect restricting my carbs has had on suppressing testosterone and T3 levels as well. The keto pundits will defend it by saying that reduced T3 is an adaptive response and non-pathogenic but I disagree. I think the hibernation factor comes into account on long-term keto that can suppress thyroid function and, as well, testosterone production. If I finally take the plunge and go on TRT, then protein synthesis will be increased and my protein intake will have to go even higher.

I have been through bevies of endocrinologists and other physicians through the years, none of which got my thyroid optimized to this day. I have had now 12 years experience of experimenting with every conceivable thyroid medication and combination and still can't achieve a suppressed enough TSH, the extensive subject of my other threads.

 

[mcs]

you're at that age when it's getting harder to lose weight

Which is why stricter dieting, regular workouts and likely, HRT, regenerative therapies (PRP, stem cells, peptides) is a must to retard the disease of aging.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Thanks for your input.

I have been familiar with Volek/Phinney's work for some time and am more than aware of the effects of gluconeogenesis. While I think that the science has merit, and perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think that strict keto is sustainable for long periods of time and definitely not a way to go if you are trying to maintain/build lean mass or prevent sarcopenia as we age. Adequate protein intake to the tune of 1g/pound of body weight is still a good rule of thumb. Yes, perhaps CKD with carb refeeds is the key. Saturated fats are also something to watch for if you have the ACE and FTO genetic polymorphisms in which keto diets can actually be detrimental. I wonder what affect restricting my carbs has had on suppressing testosterone and T3 levels as well. The keto pundits will defend it by saying that reduced T3 is an adaptive response and non-pathogenic but I disagree. I think the hibernation factor comes into account on long-term keto that can suppress thyroid function and, as well, testosterone production. If I finally take the plunge and go on TRT, then protein synthesis will be increased and my protein intake will have to go even higher.

I have been through bevies of endocrinologists and other physicians through the years, none of which got my thyroid optimized to this day. I have had now 12 years experience of experimenting with every conceivable thyroid medication and combination and still can't achieve a suppressed enough TSH, the extensive subject of my other threads.

From the sound of your reply you seem to have this all under control. Good luck to you in solving your issue.

Might be better for you to do a high protein/carb cycle diet. Most pro-BBs do tis type of diet to cut weight. No, keto is not good at all for building mass. Type II muscle fibers are very much glycogen dependent. I will let you in on this when proBB are at the beginning of their contest cycle they are taking in 600-800g of carbohydrate/d along with high protein. Fats and protein are usually kept constant and only carbs are manipulated. Very few ever go keto other than maybe the last day.

I was lucky enough to be able to do a 3 day diet recall on Phil Heath back when he was Mr, Olympia. He was 280lbs and was taking in 33kcal/lb. Just over 9300kcal/d. Here is the rest:

Protein = 910g = 3640 cal (39%)
Carbs = 881g = 3524 cal (38%)
Fat - 239g = 211 cal (23%)

Fat and protein are always kept constant and only carbs are changed according to where they are in a contest cycle. You certainly don't have to be a pro BB to eat like this so the caloric in take can be greatly reduced as the rest. All this is, is a carb cycling diet. The cycling period can be as long or short as you want.

 

[Systemlord]

Why oral TRT and not injectable?

I had treatment failure on injections for 4 years, the half-life causes problems for me. Test cypionate creates very unnatural bell curves to which my body does like, causes a lot of symptoms when hormones are very steady, don't feel anything injecting twice weekly regardless of hormone levels.

Test prop may have worked due to the shorter half-life. Also due to the shorter half-life any dosage adjustment only takes 7 days to reach a steady state rather than having to wait 4-6 weeks for injections.

I can go through three dosage adjustments, reach a steady state three different times when someone on injections still doesn't have steady hormones after only one dosage adjustment.

I'd rather take a capsule twice daily than have to inject daily.

So I ask why injections and not oral T?