TRT, Weakness, Low Energy, and Dopamine?

[madman]

@madman

I started researching Testosterone dosing and it's effects on brain neurotransmitters.... I'm starting to believe that my high doses of Test (approx 200mg/wk) over the past 9-10 yrs have completely shutdown/burnt out/reduced my dopamine (as well as other CNS functions).... not too mention lack of quality sleep, etc.....

I am completely retooling my TRT and I am dropping down to 100mg/wk (with small ED SQ injection)... I am going to see how my body reacts to this protocol/how I feel physically/mentally......

Highly doubtful that it would have that effect on neurotransmitters.

Would be a sensible move to inject more frequently (daily or EOD) using lower doses due to your low SHBG as your FT levels may very well be too high for you.

 

[BillyJ03z]

Continuing my research into TRT and it's effects on bodily functions..... I have found that TRT (testosterone replacement) definitely lowers SHBG and how far it drops is dose/replacement dependent.... In my case I was I was mid-range at 34 (16.5−55.9 nmol/L) labcorp... Since I have been on TRT (approx 200mg/wk Cyp) my SHBG has been 9-15 at all times of testing... There was a time looking at my past labs where I actually inadvertently reduced my trt dose for a 6 week period and when I had my labs checked my TT was mid-range, FT was top 70% of range and my SHBG actually raised to 23.... (the reason I inadvertently reduced my Test dose was because I was using 50/50 prop-cyp and I cut injections with additional gso but I mis-calculated and I was giving myself only 100mg/wk as opposed to the 200mg/wk I was normally taking)..... funny thing is noticed no drop off in strength despite half the amount of Test.

I have also found that SHBG has direct relationship with Thyroid function/efficiency.... Low SHBG seemingly reduces Thyroid efficiency in the body.. In my case, this would make sense since my Thyroid panels have relatively remained the same since pre-trt to now with the only exception is a slight drop in FT4 which is at the very bottom of the ref range. I have complained of hypo symptoms since starting TRT despite a seemingly normal functioning Thyroid based on lab numbers.

Im hoping that reducing my Test dose will raise my SHBG and help correct my seemingly sluggish Thyroid.

 

[Raindog]

Guys- I am not sure if this is related or not. BUT, I started TRT a year ago, started Feb. 2018. At first I felt the best I have ever felt my entire life- mentally. I have had anxiety since I can remember, Im 54 now. At first it made my anxiety melt away. I felt focused, confident and little anxiety. It was fleeting. Would come and go as they tried to figure out my dosing. My dosing was really hard to figure out. At first TRT, I think I was getting burst of dopamine that relieved my ADHD (I didnt know it at the time)Now a year later I am figuring out that I have had undiagnosed ADHD, or ADD my whole life. Initially TRT helped, but eventually the TRT has made it worse, made the ADHD worse. It brought it to light for me. I have had inattentive ADHD my whole life (no physical hyperactivity). On TRT it started to turn to hyperactive variety ADHD, which made it very obvious. So, trt help expose ADHD to me. I have gone through a lot of what is described on this thread and thought I would share. This is brand new and I am not medicated for it yet. In fact just diagnosed by a p-doc and havent seen my art doc yet...But it makes every thing make sense, even how I couldnt feel balanced on TRT. ADHD has to do w/ dopamine regulation.

 

[Systemlord]

Guys- I am not sure if this is related or not. BUT, I started TRT a year ago, started Feb. 2018. At first I felt the best I have ever felt my entire life- mentally. I have had anxiety since I can remember, Im 54 now. At first it made my anxiety melt away. I felt focused, confident and little anxiety. It was fleeting. Would come and go as they tried to figure out my dosing. My dosing was really hard to figure out. At first TRT, I think I was getting burst of dopamine that relieved my ADHD (I didnt know it at the time)Now a year later I am figuring out that I have had undiagnosed ADHD, or ADD my whole life. Initially TRT helped, but eventually the TRT has made it worse, made the ADHD worse. It brought it to light for me. I have had inattentive ADHD my whole life (no physical hyperactivity). On TRT it started to turn to hyperactive variety ADHD, which made it very obvious. So, trt help expose ADHD to me. I have gone through a lot of what is described on this thread and thought I would share. This is brand new and I am not medicated for it yet. In fact just diagnosed by a p-doc and havent seen my art doc yet...But it makes every thing make sense, even how I couldnt feel balanced on TRT. ADHD has to do w/ dopamine regulation.

TRT has helped with my hyperactive ADHD and by calming me down to where I feel like I don't even have ADHD anymore. Now when my estrogen isn't too high, my mind is calmer and people in my inner circle notice I have a higher level of insight and comment about it and my instincts are much sharper all without any drugs.

 

[Gman86]

TRT has helped with my hyperactive ADHD and by calming me down to where I feel like I don't even have ADHD anymore. Now when my estrogen isn't too high, my mind is calmer and people in my inner circle notice I have a higher level of insight and comment about it and my instincts are much sharper all without any drugs.

So when E2 is too high, you feel some of those positive effects fading? And just curious, where does your E2 and SHBG sit when you feel best?

 

[Systemlord]

So when E2 is too high, you feel some of those positive effects fading? And just curious, where does your E2 and SHBG sit when you feel best?

Exactly, when estrogen is high it feels like glue in the brain, a walking zombie mentally. My estrogen is high right now do to high (33%) body fat, when I microdose aromasin, for 2.5 days my mind is as sharp as a fiddle. Creativity and insight is very high, something I've never been known for by anyone who knows me. Was on klonopin previously for 30 years, it's a powerful sedative.

That's they are shocked when they see it, their like wow! Then days later it's right back to being a deadhead. I felt sharp when my E2 was in the mid 20's, I haven't nailed down my optimal range. I have about 73 lbs to lose.

 

[Raindog]

I have had moments of clarity like that. I've described them to my doc as life changing. A vail all my life is lifted. It was amazing. I havent had one for a long time, but earlier I felt it a few times. For a day or two sometimes half a day. My T is in the low 900's now, I am going lower. I did not have as many ADHD symptoms at the lower range and I must have been lower when I felt those things. I want down. I kept loosing my boner when I went lower before, but I think that probably had more to do with DHEA dropping out suddenly now in hindsight. It used to be I couldnt tolerate DHEA at all. Now it makes me feel awesome and helps my libido. Anyway, I didnt want to make this about that, highjack or anything like that.. but, based on how I have felt I am going to go down too, seeing my doctor next week.

 

[Dasein88]

I feel like death on anastrozole regardless of my E2 level. HCG may not agree with you and the belly bloat stands out as HCG induced since E2 looks fine.

Can you elaborate on what "death" feels like?

 

[Dasein88]

I tired pregnenolone a few times didn’t help at all for me. Ssri raised my cortisol a few points a couple times I tested

Why did you want or need to raise cortisol?

 

[Dasein88]

I have had moments of clarity like that. I've described them to my doc as life changing. A vail all my life is lifted. It was amazing. I havent had one for a long time,.... I kept loosing my boner when I went lower before, but I think that probably had more to do with DHEA dropping out suddenly now in hindsight. It used to be I couldnt tolerate DHEA at all. Now it makes me feel awesome and helps my libido. Anyway, I didnt want to make this about that, highjack or anything like that.. but, based on how I have felt I am going to go down too, seeing my doctor next week.

You mean that you have moments of clarity when your e2 is optimal or what are you saying?

How much DHEA are you on, what time of day do you take it, and in what way does it make you feel amazing? I have really struggled with DHEA. I have taken it before bed. 25-50mg is too much. It interrupts sleep and makes me feel generally weird. It's almost like a mild "trip" experience.

In what way did you not tolerate DHEA well?

The only noticeable benefit at that a 25-50mg dose was nocturnal erections. I've since tried 12.5mg doses that, although milder, only produce weird trippy feelings and mild sleep interruption, that are less effective at inducing nocturnal erections.

I thought perhaps DHEA interacted with Zoloft but I've been off of Zoloft nearly two weeks. That notion appears bunk.

I realize that I have to make studying this stuff a full-time job if I seriously want to understand it, but it's very frustrating that there does not seem to be a simple breakdown of the benefits and drawbacks if DHEA supplementation, where causes low DHEA levels, etc.

Forgive me if something like this already exists on this forum or elsewhere. It seems to me that there is an endless amount of material that one has to sift through in order to maybe reach an answer regarding TRT, hormones, or any related issues.

Many men claim they feel either nothing or no benefits from DHEA, even at much higher dosages than I've tried. I cannot imagine trying 100mg. I would feel like I'm on drugs.

 

[Gman86]

You mean that you have moments of clarity when your e2 is optimal or what are you saying?

How much DHEA are you on, what time of day do you take it, and in what way does it make you feel amazing? I have really struggled with DHEA. I have taken it before bed. 25-50mg is too much. It interrupts sleep and makes me feel generally weird. It's almost like a mild "trip" experience.

In what way did you not tolerate DHEA well?

The only noticeable benefit at that a 25-50mg dose was nocturnal erections. I've since tried 12.5mg doses that, although milder, only produce weird trippy feelings and mild sleep interruption, that are less effective at inducing nocturnal erections.

I thought perhaps DHEA interacted with Zoloft but I've been off of Zoloft nearly two weeks. That notion appears bunk.

I realize that I have to make studying this stuff a full-time job if I seriously want to understand it, but it's very frustrating that there does not seem to be a simple breakdown of the benefits and drawbacks if DHEA supplementation, where causes low DHEA levels, etc.

Forgive me if something like this already exists on this forum or elsewhere. It seems to me that there is an endless amount of material that one has to sift through in order to maybe reach an answer regarding TRT, hormones, or any related issues.

Many men claim they feel either nothing or no benefits from DHEA, even at much higher dosages than I've tried. I cannot imagine trying 100mg. I would feel like I'm on drugs.

Have you ever tried sublingual DHEA? And I’m no expert on DHEA, but it seems like there’s a chance we might be using way higher doses of DHEA than we may actually need. Here’s a video of a guy talking about men needing much smaller doses of DHEA than what we’re used to seeing.

I currently have naturally high levels of DHEA-S, but down the road, when I eventually do need to supplement with it, I plan on starting with 5mg of Empower’s sublingual troche. I know men have success taking OTC Pregnenolone and DHEA, but I personally would never trust taking OTC products to optimize something as important as hormones within my body. The regulations on OTC supplements are literally a joke. So even though I’m a huge proponent of anectodal experiences over studies, when it comes to men using pharmacy grade products, I just have to take anectodal stories of men using OTC DHEA or Pregnenolone with a grain of salt. I think the rate of success would be MUCH MUCH higher if everyone was using pharmacy grade versions of these products. Again, just my opinions.

 

[Charliebizz]

You mean that you have moments of clarity when your e2 is optimal or what are you saying?

How much DHEA are you on, what time of day do you take it, and in what way does it make you feel amazing? I have really struggled with DHEA. I have taken it before bed. 25-50mg is too much. It interrupts sleep and makes me feel generally weird. It's almost like a mild "trip" experience.

In what way did you not tolerate DHEA well?

The only noticeable benefit at that a 25-50mg dose was nocturnal erections. I've since tried 12.5mg doses that, although milder, only produce weird trippy feelings and mild sleep interruption, that are less effective at inducing nocturnal erections.

I thought perhaps DHEA interacted with Zoloft but I've been off of Zoloft nearly two weeks. That notion appears bunk.

I realize that I have to make studying this stuff a full-time job if I seriously want to understand it, but it's very frustrating that there does not seem to be a simple breakdown of the benefits and drawbacks if DHEA supplementation, where causes low DHEA levels, etc.

Forgive me if something like this already exists on this forum or elsewhere. It seems to me that there is an endless amount of material that one has to sift through in order to maybe reach an answer regarding TRT, hormones, or any related issues.

Many men claim they feel either nothing or no benefits from DHEA, even at much higher dosages than I've tried. I cannot imagine trying 100mg. I would feel like I'm on drugs.

I saw your other thread to Dr Saya. My question is have you ever tested your cortisol. Some will debate this topic but for me personally yet lowered my already low normal cortisol and man did I feel it. 3 different times I tested on and off cortisol so without a shadow of a doubt to me it happens. The only time I could feel ok on trt was if I was on low dose lexapro. However you are already on Zoloft and still feel trt has made you worse. I’m currently on week 3 of coming of trt because I just do not see enough benefit to keep wasting money on it. For the guys that feel great on it I’m very happy for and wish we could all share the same result. And if I did it would be worth the future risks of long term lh and testicular shut down. for some of us it just seems way more complex then just adding testosterone too and I will admit I’ve always had something going on way before my low t hit. I feel like I can live my life fine off trt. But I don’t feel great I feel ok. Problem is we always want more and every couple months I visit these forums and see the couple of posts about how life changing trt is for some and I give it another try lol. I can’t even say I won’t try it again in the future but it’s just a hell of a lot easier for me off as of now

 

[Dasein88]

I saw your other thread to Dr Saya. My question is have you ever tested your cortisol. Some will debate this topic but for me personally yet lowered my already low normal cortisol and man did I feel it.... for some of us it just seems way more complex then just adding testosterone too and I will admit I’ve always had something going on way before my low t hit. ... I can’t even say I won’t try it again in the future but it’s just a hell of a lot easier for me off as of now

Why is your cortisol low?

To my knowledge, I've never had cortisol tested, but that is one of the factors I believe could be affecting my health. My belief is that I have inflammation (trendy word, at the moment).

I have Hashimoto's, which is an autoimmune disease. Both of my grandfathers had autoimmune diseases (type I diabetes, and rheumatoid arthritis).

I have a lot of joint discomfort, mainly, my neck and back. It's reached the point where I think I have some kind of condition that hasn't been diagnosed or I just have excess inflammation. I don't know whether that would mean low cortisol or high cortisol.

Lexapro: I am currently off of Zoloft. After thinking it over, I don't feel like it makes sense that I need to stay on an antidepressant in order to tolerate TRT. It indicates to me that something is wrong if I need a powerful psychoactive substance to counterbalance another. If that is the case, I think I should try something else, as far as TRT, or quit TRT.

As you mention, there's always the desire to feel better, which is why I am keeping my mind open to other methods. When I read the stories of men who suffer for years trying to find a TRT regimen that works, to no avail, it makes me leery of continuing.

 

[StepbyStep]

Dasein check this thread out,
Testosterone propionate for TRT

I'm thinking of trying propionate, a shorter ester than can seemingly mimic dinural variation with an ED or EOD protocol. Perhaps more daily variation in T levels could help with dopamine issues. Instead of spending countless time and money trying to perfect our TRT protocols on one specific form of Testosterone, we should be looking at the actual Esters that we're using.

 

[Gman86]

Dasein check this thread out,
Testosterone propionate for TRT

I'm thinking of trying propionate, a shorter ester than can seemingly mimic dinural variation with an ED or EOD protocol. Perhaps more daily variation in T levels could help with dopamine issues. Instead of spending countless time and money trying to perfect our TRT protocols on one specific form of Testosterone, we should be looking at the actual Esters that we're using.

Sometimes studies can’t account for everything. Doctors, and forum members, will tell you that all testosterone is the same, and ester won’t make any difference, but I don’t believe this to be true. Sometimes there’s just things we cannot yet explain through science. For instance, some men do really well on creams. Is it due to creams not lowering LH and FSH as much? Is it due to the cream spiking testosterone, and the testosterone being lower at the end of the day and giving your body/ androgen receptors a tiny break, and therefore them being more receptive the next morning? Is it due to the cream converting into other hormones at different ratios than say a cyp/ enanthate? Who knows. But point is, some guys use it and much prefer it over esterfied injectable forms of testosterone.

Another example is test propionate. One guy on here said that he feels great on test prop, but literally said taking test cyp was like “injecting pure side effects”. But guys on here will say that this is either impossible, or placebo, due to the ester of a testosterone not mattering, because once the ester is cleaved off, all testosterone is the same.

Point is, if something isn’t working, there’s other options, and it’s nice to know that others have changed literally nothing but the form of testosterone delivery, and felt amazing. It just gives an alternative to being fixated and chasing numbers to try and feel good on TRT.

 

[glob]

If it makes you feel any better low dose lexapro Gave me my life back after I screwed up my hormones by overtraining under eating. Read dr Mariano’s posts on the boards over the years he has some pretty insightful posts about why they can help.

I’ve had perfect labs on trt. I was a patient of. Dr johns for years. We tried every single combination of drugs on hrt. I mean we tried everything from clomid to triptorelin. Hc /t3 trt mono, hcg mono, trt with hcg ai, hcg mono and Ai mono. I’ve never felt right on any form of hrt. Last run with trt mono I was doing ok but I was only taking 60mg per week everyday shots. But I wasn’t really feeling anything at all. And my athletic performance has always suffered on trt. I’m not sure why this is the case and ssri isn’t fool proof either some times I think they might make me care a little less about things and a little short tempered but also might be me just getting older

If it makes you feel any better low dose lexapro Gave me my life back after I screwed up my hormones by overtraining under eating. Read dr Mariano’s posts on the boards over the years he has some pretty insightful posts about why they can help.

I’ve had perfect labs on trt. I was a patient of. Dr johns for years. We tried every single combination of drugs on hrt. I mean we tried everything from clomid to triptorelin. Hc /t3 trt mono, hcg mono, trt with hcg ai, hcg mono and Ai mono. I’ve never felt right on any form of hrt. Last run with trt mono I was doing ok but I was only taking 60mg per week everyday shots. But I wasn’t really feeling anything at all. And my athletic performance has always suffered on trt. I’m not sure why this is the case and ssri isn’t fool proof either some times I think they might make me care a little less about things and a little short tempered but also might be me just getting older

Have you ever try wellbutrin?

 

[Charliebizz]

Have you ever try wellbutrin?

I was able to get trt to work pretty well now. And I’m off the ssri for close to 3 years now.

 

[Charliebizz]

Have you ever try wellbutrin?

I have not. I thought about it a bunch over the years but never pulled the trigger

 

[glob]

I was able to get trt to work pretty well now. And I’m off the ssri for close to 3 years now.

this is good news, what protocol are you following? what were your main problems/symptoms?

 

[Charliebizz]

this is good news, what protocol are you following? what were your main problems/symptoms?

When I wasn’t on trt my issues were low libido, poor recovery from workouts, fatigue, poor performance at sports, hypoglycemia type bouts few other things I’m forgetting. Then I jumped on trt and a lot of those got better. But on injections I was experiencing depression and these strange headaches. Almost felt allergic to it. Been on the 20% 200/mg/ml atrevis cream. 3 clicks daily and feel much better overall. I’m still not perfect but other areas of my life I need to work on. Like sleep/nutrition.