TRT, Weakness, Low Energy, and Dopamine?

[Systemlord]

I think I know the timeline you are talking about, but that only addresses sexual and physical aspects, not cognitive aspects.

How do we explain the fact that I never had these problems before TRT? Something about my body chemistry is certainly "off." I've been on Zoloft for most of the past decade and my periods of greatest mental clarity have been on Zoloft. Does testosterone cypionate interact with Zoloft?

Ever since TRT, I have had constant cognitive difficulties. Some days are worse than others. Today happens to be worse than yesterday, which was worse than the day prior. My cognitive function is so poor, I will waste most of my day off being unproductive.

I never struggled in the gym on Zoloft. These days I take a large amount of preworkout just to have the motivation to complete a workout. While I may have put on some muscle, it is very hard when I don't have the muscle energy needed to push myself. I feel as though my ATP is not there.

In any case, there has to be a biochemical explanation for my muscle weakness, and I hope someone can answer that. Preworkouts before TRT gave me insane energy with a standard portion. On TRT they either barely work, or work moderately, even taking up to 1.5-2 times the portion size. I haven't abused preworkouts since 2012 and the only reason I use them since going on TRT is because I simply don't have the drive or motivation to go to the gym and push through a workout.

The most common responses I have received about my complaints are that I haven't been on TRT long enough, or that Zoloft is now causing all of these side effects it never had before. First thing tomorrow I will schedule an appointment so that I can switch to wellbutrin. What if I still don't see results? Are we going to blame wellbutrin?

I hope Dr. Saya comments.

It may just be these levels are too high for you, not everyone does well in the high normal ranges.

 

[captain]

Maybe he needed TRT when they put him on Zoloft. The combo of the two could be causing his problems. If he was happy with Zoloft would he be looking for help and getting put on TRT? I know people on SSRI that thinks its helping but they are not happy. They don't like to even think about stopping SSRI. I agree that we see people come here looking for TRT that have nothing wrong with them and don't understand what they are about to do to themselves.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I can't believe no one has asked about sleep quality and sleep apnea testing.

Fatigue- When Testosterone Is Not Enough

Also, how is your life now? Are you in a good relationship? Do you have small kids? Do you like your job?

I have perfect hormones and have to deal with fatigue and low mood at least 3 times per year. In my case is sleep-related and also when I am frustrated with things happening in my life.

Zoloft is a good drug. It saved me from getting into a darker space three times in my life. Wellbutrin made me anxious.

 

[Charliebizz]

Maybe he needed TRT when they put him on Zoloft. The combo of the two could be causing his problems. If he was happy with Zoloft would he be looking for help and getting put on TRT? I know people on SSRI that thinks its helping but they are not happy. They don't like to even think about stopping SSRI. I agree that we see people come here looking for TRT that have nothing wrong with them and don't understand what they are about to do to themselves.

I can’t speak for him but I can speak for my self I tried trt 3 times before trying ssri. And like I said we tried everything with dr john. He got to the point where he even said to me. Obviously we are missing something and trt isn’t the answer.

And to say people on ssri are convincing them self’s they are happy is just pure speculation. Come on brother I’ve been on the boards for over 10 years and how many guys come on shouting to the heavens how great they are and a few months later they are trying clomid restarts or saying they wish they never started. Plenty. It works both ways for nt and hormones they are so intertwined so to right off one drug and praise the other is kinda crazy. Most on trt are convinced it’s so much more natural then ssri but why is your t low why do you think shutting off other pathways isn’t detrimental. Why do they need to backfill with lh mimics and preg and dhea. Can we just agree that both work for some and both not for others and we still do not know what anything is doing to us for the long term and we have ways to go in this field of medicine. But if your taking something that is improving your quality of life and your ok with the risk so be it. I have a friend with lupus. She was in such a bad place she takes one of those medications that has a laundry list of side effects. But she can actually live her life on it she had almost zero quality of life before. She ended up getting thyroid cancer and jumping right back on the meds after surgery. And got cancer again. Pretty strong evidence that the med is playing a role in her getting cancer but yet she said she will never stop taking the meds cause she has no life off of them

 

[captain]

If you don't need TRT to start with I agree. If you are low T some other pathways may already be shut off. I think shutting off other pathways is detrimental and you are foolish to do so if you don't need it.

 

[Charliebizz]

If you don't need TRT to start with I agree. If you are low T some other pathways may already be shut off. I think shutting off other pathways is detrimental and you are foolish to do so if you don't need it.

One thing I always thought of was how a lot of younger men struggle with low t. And older guys seem to do better when they just treating age related low t. Not saying there isn’t plenty of younger guys doing great but seems like when it’s age related it’s a lot simpler then when it’s what ever the hell is happening to us young secondary guys

 

[Dasein88]

I can't believe no one has asked about sleep quality and sleep apnea testing.

Fatigue- When Testosterone Is Not Enough

Also, how is your life now? Are you in a good relationship? Do you have small kids? Do you like your job?

I have perfect hormones and have to deal with fatigue and low mood at least 3 times per year. In my case is sleep-related and also when I am frustrated with things happening in my life.

Zoloft is a good drug. It saved me from getting into a darker space three times in my life. Wellbutrin made me anxious.

Thank you, Nelson. My sleep overall is very good. I don't have sleep apnea. My biggest problem with sleeping is that I am up late and I often don't want to go to sleep, but once I put my head down, I sleep well without waking up.

I don't have any kids or a great deal of stress. Mainly, lack of progress with TRT is causing most of my unease.

Defy wanted me to supplement dhea based on my original labs, because it was low normal. I find myself waking up and unable to go back to sleep with DHEA 25mg or 50mg. It gave me such problems I discontinued using it.

I have tried cutting the 25mg tabs in half, and it causes me less problems. But I don't take it consistently. I don't know how beneficial or important DHEA is.

A note on Zoloft: for what it's worth, Zoloft has without question helped me through a few difficult times in my life. I was off of Zoloft before going on TRT. I went back on Zoloft due to the sides I was experiencing from TRT.

That said, ideally I don't want to remain on any kind of antidepressant. My worry with discontinuing Zoloft is that my mood will become unstable, but I am considering discontinuing Zoloft as one of my options.

If I continue to experience my same complaints after discontinuing Zoloft, then I can rule it out as the problem. If I no longer experience side effects, then my problem is solved.

 

[Dasein88]

Maybe he needed TRT when they put him on Zoloft. The combo of the two could be causing his problems. If he was happy with Zoloft would he be looking for help and getting put on TRT?

I believe my low T levels are a direct result of Hashimoto's, which I've had since the age of 12 or 13. I'm not an endocrinologist, so there's a lot I don't know, but my guess is that Hashimoto's stunted my overall growth (e.g. height, testicles), until I was finally diagnosed and treated, when I was 14.

If true, I think I've always ran on the lower end, even during puberty. Plus, levothyroxine raises SHBG, which would partially explain my levels over 50.

 

[Dasein88]

You may want to research LDN.

The LDN (Low Dose Naltrexone) Book - If you have CFS, FM, Lyme and more

Thank you. I will look into ldn. Also, I agree with the idea of dropping the AI. I worry a bit about my e2 creeping up and I realize there's been a huge debate over AIs recently. Might I need to lower my testosterone dosage if I drop adex?

 

[Dasein88]

He has been on Zoloft for 10 years and he is not happy. Then he has been put on TRT for 8 weeks and TRT is the blame. Doesn’t make sense.

I started and remained on Zoloft mainly due to anxiety and, to a lesser extent, to stabilize my mood, not for depression. I had such horrible anxiety before Zoloft, I just remained on it for years, because anything is better than the crippling anxiety I used to experience.

As harmful as Zoloft is, I worry more about the long-term effects of benzodiazepines. Charlie was on point with his responses. Plus, I was off of Zoloft for a few months before going on TRT. I went back on Zoloft in order to manage the side effects.

I feel stable enough now that I am considering discontinuing Zoloft, because I would rather not be on antidepressants unless I have to.

 

[Dasein88]

Again, another new person started with TRT, HCG and AI right out the gate. I don't understand why? I thought AI only if needed? (symptoms) and his E is on the low end of normal. I know its all about balance but starting with one thing at a time seems to make the most sense.

Maybe Dr. Saya can answer that? I think an AI is standard with Defy's care, as it was with Dr. John, right? I am on hcg because I don't want testicular atrophy. I am stopping use, but I'm still not comfortable with shrinkage.

 

[Dasein88]

So you’re labs do look pretty good, apart from your E2. I would say it’s way too low, based off of your SHBG. With you having a SHBG of 51, you have plenty of room for your E2 to go up. So I would 100% stop taking the ai. You could also try dropping the HCG as well, even just temporarily to see if you notice any differences, good or bad. But I would absolutely stop the ai.

Thank you, Gman. I will drop AI and I have already stopped using HCG.

While I believe many drugs, such as antidepressants and benzodiazepines, can be useful, I look at it mostly as a racket that big pharma uses to line its pockets.

Drugs don't address underlying causes and I've seen over and over again people with thyroid conditions, or low T, end up getting prescribed SSRIs, because medical care follows a business model, rather than trying to help peoples.

A real study into the causes of pervasive mental health problems is needed but I don't expect one to ever happen.

 

[captain]

I did the SSRI because of anxiety. I didn't like the sides of SSRI. I started TRT still had anxiety till I added HCG and got my levels up mid to upper range. This was more than a year getting to that point.

 

[Gman86]

Thank you, Gman. I will drop AI and I have already stopped using HCG.

While I believe many drugs, such as antidepressants and benzodiazepines, can be useful, I look at it mostly as a racket that big pharma uses to line its pockets.

Drugs don't address underlying causes and I've seen over and over again people with thyroid conditions, or low T, end up getting prescribed SSRIs, because medical care follows a business model, rather than trying to help peoples.

A real study into the causes of pervasive mental health problems is needed but I don't expect one to ever happen.

I feel the exact same way. They have their place, and clearly have saved lives. But through studies, placebo pills work equally as effectively. And you’re right, they are a bandaid, and don’t get to the root of the issue. There’s always a way to cure the depression without pharmaceuticals 100% of the time, but I don’t judge people that need to take the easy route and take an antidepressant. Before antidepressants, testosterone was actually the best cure for depression, as far as I know. Testosterone is an excellent antidepressant. But just like how antidepressants don’t work for everyone, I guess testosterone doesn’t work for everyone either, especially if testosterone deficiency wasn’t the root cause of the problem to begin with.

And ya you’re right again, you’ll never see a study on antidepressants that isn’t biased by the people funding the study. But it doesn’t matter anyways, you don’t need to be a genius to know by now using a bandaid to treat a problem is never as good as treating the root cause.

For anyone looking to eventually get off of psychiatric medication(s), check out Kelly Brogan’s YouTube channel, she has a ton of amazing testimonials of hopeless, suicidal people, that no longer take anything and that are doing very well. Some after suffering for 30+ years. But if anyone here is on psychiatric meds, and are happy and doing well, you probably should just keep doing what you’re doing. Here’s her channel

Kelly Brogan MD

 

[Gman86]

Thank you. I will look into ldn. Also, I agree with the idea of dropping the AI. I worry a bit about my e2 creeping up and I realize there's been a huge debate over AIs recently. Might I need to lower my testosterone dosage if I drop adex?

I think you’re testosterone level looks perfect. I wouldn’t mess with it. You have to remember too that your E2 might go down a bit if you’re stopping the HCG

 

[Charliebizz]

I feel the exact same way. They have their place, and clearly have saved lives. But through studies, placebo pills work equally as effectively. And you’re right, they are a bandaid, and don’t get to the root of the issue. There’s always a way to cure the depression without pharmaceuticals 100% of the time, but I don’t judge people that need to take the easy route and take an antidepressant. Before antidepressants, testosterone was actually the best cure for depression, as far as I know. Testosterone is an excellent antidepressant. But just like how antidepressants don’t work for everyone, I guess testosterone doesn’t work for everyone either, especially if testosterone deficiency wasn’t the root cause of the problem to begin with.

And ya you’re right again, you’ll never see a study on antidepressants that isn’t biased by the people funding the study. But it doesn’t matter anyways, you don’t need to be a genius to know by now using a bandaid to treat a problem is never as good as treating the root cause.

For anyone looking to eventually get off of psychiatric medication(s), check out Kelly Brogan’s YouTube channel, she has a ton of amazing testimonials of hopeless, suicidal people, that no longer take anything and that are doing very well. Some after suffering for 30+ years. But if anyone here is on psychiatric meds, and are happy and doing well, you probably should just keep doing what you’re doing. Here’s her channel

Kelly Brogan MD

i also didn’t take ssri for depression or anxiety. I took it to help with low cortisol symptoms based off dr Mariano’s work. But I agree it’s still a bandaid. Like most medical intervention is.

 

[Gman86]

i also didn’t take ssri for depression or anxiety. I took it to help with low cortisol symptoms based off dr Mariano’s work. But I agree it’s still a bandaid. Like most medical intervention is.

Oh interesting, didn’t know that could be used for low cortisol. Did it raise your cortisol levels? Before corticosteroids became big for treating low cortisol, I’m pretty sure pregnenolone was often prescribed. There’s a bunch of studies showing the amazing benefits of pregnenolone. They all got thrown to the wasteside though once they created corticosteroids that they could patent and make billions on.

 

[lemonflavor]

Charliebizz, I may be having an issue with cortisol. I'm going to be tested this week. I'm on an SSRI also. Did you ever take hydrocortisone? I'm having an absolutely awful time with anxiety and testosterone. I do get some benefit from it though.

Edit: DHEA and pregnelolone make anxiety worse for me.

 

[Charliebizz]

Oh interesting, didn’t know that could be used for low cortisol. Did it raise your cortisol levels? Before corticosteroids became big for treating low cortisol, I’m pretty sure pregnenolone was often prescribed. There’s a bunch of studies showing the amazing benefits of pregnenolone. They all got thrown to the wasteside though once they created corticosteroids that they could patent and make billions on.

I tired pregnenolone a few times didn’t help at all for me. Ssri raised my cortisol a few points a couple times I tested. But I’ve also had a test on it where it was back down to low normal.

 

[Charliebizz]

Charliebizz, I may be having an issue with cortisol. I'm going to be tested this week. I'm on an SSRI also. Did you ever take hydrocortisone? I'm having an absolutely awful time with anxiety and testosterone. I do get some benefit from it though.

Edit: DHEA and pregnelolone make anxiety worse for me.

Yes hydrocortisone was no fun for me. Made me all over the place how I felt. Never really had any positives. Way more negatives. For me I can’t tolerate any trt without ssri. Within a few weeks to a month I just feel awful. Run down super low energy and anxiety. Even on ssri if my t dose is too high I get anxiety also. I was able to feel ok on 70mg of testosterone with ssri.