I can attest that since I started TRT over 9 yrs ago it's having a negative effect on mood, sleep, memory, motivation, cognitive, etc... Looking at past labs I noticed pre-trt that my SHBG was mid-range of reference for labcorp and now it is bottom 5% of said reference which is obviously good for use of free test, etc.. However, from what I researched is that low SHBG also correlates to low/sluggish thyroid. Pre-Trt my FT4 levels was mid-range of labcorp reference range with FT3 at top 80%.. now my FT4 is bottom 10% of said range... I have researched that FT4 crosses the blood brain barrier and is responsible for cognitive/brain functions where as FT3 is for energy/metabolism, etc... At this time I started NDT (Armour Thryoid) and Im going to see if that will increase my Ft4...
TRT, Weakness, Low Energy, and Dopamine?
Vince
Super Moderator
The developing brain is an important target of thyroid hormones. ... The source of T4 reaching the fetal brain up to midgestation is mostly of maternal origin (3). Both T4 and T3 cross the placenta and reach the fetal organs, but only T4 appears to cross the fetal blood-brain barrier.
Csic › es › digital › bitstream › The signi...
The Significance of Thyroid Hormone Transporters in the Brain ...
Csic › es › digital › bitstream › The signi...
The Significance of Thyroid Hormone Transporters in the Brain ...
One would want to see RT3 level before increasing T4 intake. NDT may not be a good choice to increase T4. I recall T3 in the brain is produced in the brain. I think this is so for the pituitary as well. Levels in the blood may not reflect what levels are in the brain and pituitary. This may be the disconnect of what your labs say and how you feel.
I had my RT3 checked and my ratio was good, so I didn't have an RT3 problem which I was actually hoping It was the problem because then I would have at least narrowed down my problem...
Like I said earlier from previous labs, I noticed that my SHBG and FT4 dropped since I started TRT so Im going to go the NDT route to see if if helps any to increase T4...
Like I said earlier from previous labs, I noticed that my SHBG and FT4 dropped since I started TRT so Im going to go the NDT route to see if if helps any to increase T4...
Am I reading your post correctly, that TRT has had a negative effect on mood, sleep, motivation, etc since you started 9 years ago? As in you felt these negative effects in your first year of TRT and continue to experience them 9 years later?
If so, what positive effects did you feel that outweighed all of that and made you continue TRT?
Yes, TRT did alter my mood, sleep, motivation, etc... but it had been a progression which slowly manifested. Slight changes in mood and motivation wasn't really a noticeable worry and wasn't drastic.. It was a slow progression.. the one thing that was noticeable almost a few months in to TRT was the sleep issues (broken sleep, lack of quality sleep).. I have had a sleep study and I don't have apnea nor any other sleep issues.
The positive effects as to the reason why I remained on TRT was because of Strength/healthy size/weight that I gained. I have my days where I feel good but it seems most days are feeling "meh" "unmotivated" "slightly depressed" even though I look and feel strong, healthy...
I only started to really look at my labs over the years and look for anomalies/red flags as to what may have changed from pre-trt to present.... The red flags since starting TRT were SHBG dropped, FT4, Total T4 dropped as T3, FT3, TSH remained relatively the same, DHEA dropped significantly (have supplemented to raise but nothing noticeable)..
Systemlord
Member
Declining SHBG is the elephant in the room, Free E2 continued to increase as SHBG decreased and that would have affected mood, sleep, memory, motivation, cognitive function.
Looking back at your labs, have you kept TT/FT within lab ranges for most of your time on TRT?
I thought E2 was the issue too.... My E2 has always been in the 25-40 range of 7.6−42.6 pg/mL.... and I was thinking since my SHBG is low I would lower my E2 even more to eliminate the negative Free E so I took an AI and got my E2 down to 8 of the range and it made no difference. I did take the sensitive E2 at one point and my E was 18 of the 8 -35 range...
so by process of elimination it leads me to Thyroid.......
Systemlord
Member
I meant to imply declining SHBG levels was linked to the thyroid, something than can happen after one starts TRT which exposes a weak thyroid that shows it's true colors when asked to perform.
My TT has always been within top 70% of labcorp ranges but My FT was always at 90 to 120% of labcorp range... IN the beginning I was pinning 2x wk (200mg total Cyp)... then I switched to ED and EOD (Prop50/Cyp200 combo) totaling 150mg wk... I have played around with low, mid, high dosages... I do feel better on ed and eod schedule with around 140-170 mg wk... If I go higher than that then my FT shoots for the stars.. lol
Ok.. I got ya... Yeah, I think you are spot on!!!!..... As my SHBG continued to lower due to possible Thyroid sluggishness of TRT introduction, it would possibly/likely correlate that even if my E2 levels remained the same the effects of E2/Free E would continue to build and have a bigger negative impact than normally otherwise if my SHBG was higher.
Im going to continue the NDT and see if the SHBG raises coinciding with the increase in Thyroid hormones... hopefully I will see some sort of physiologic/cognitive improvement,
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madman
Super Moderator
Regarding trt energy/mood/libido/erections/overall well being should be the main reasons most seek to have healthy testosterone levels not strength/size/weight as that is someone more concerned with the body composition changes as oppose to relief/improvement of low t symptoms and positive effects on ones overall well being.
From what I remember from your previous threads you have low SHBG and for the first 7 years you were on 200 mg/week (100 mg every 3.5 days) and were running higher TT/FT levels and since than you have tried lowering dose and injecting more frequently but where does your FT sit now as you state that you feel poorly overall on trt aside from body composition benefits and you are 9 years in......is your FT still on the high end using lower doses injected more frequently?
Do understand that high T levels can have negative effects on sleep as testosterone has a tonic effect on the body and can amp one up due to stimulation of the CNS.
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lemonflavor
Member
Having anxiety problems undergoing TRT, I'd be interested to know more about how T affects the CNS.
@madman
I initially started TRT for energy, mood, overall well being, libido, etc... I worked 14 yrs as a Federal Air Marshal and I was getting burned out.. My workouts were suffering, my energy levels were going down, etc... One of my co-workers suggested getting my blood levels checked and possibly getting on TRT.. I got blood levels checked and Total Test and Free Test were low and the doc encouraged TRT.. My initial experience in the beginning was good, awesome pumps in gym, good libido, decent mood considering, etc.. but as time went on I started suffering the symptoms I stated earlier in the post. The doc I was initially seeing didn't really understand all the "in's and out's and nuances" that TRT administration and monitoring requires.. So for me the 200mg of Cyp per week was too high as I did have very top range TT and above range FT...
In the past 2 years, I have adjusted my dosing and found my sweet spot anywhere between 140 - 170 mg/wk (depending on ester prop/cyp) and dosing Eod or ED... Even though I still suffer from my previously stated issues, I feel much better than I did in the first 7 yrs with 200 and higher Cyp per wk.... My FT currently sits in the 80-90% of top reference range, TT is 60-70% of Ref range (labcorp) and SHBG is still in the bottom 10% of labcorp ref range...
Honestly, I believe somewhere in my hormone pathway since starting TRT it got messed up.. The culprit that I believe is causing me the issues (brain fog, memory issues, lack of mental motivation) is the Thyroid low FT4 and low Total T4... TRT gives me physical energy, libido (no issues getting it up and performing) but its the mental fatigue that prevents me from being 100%... I guess the bests analogy I can up with is that I can easily physically sprint down the block and lift a 200lb box/item but I don't feel like getting out of my chair to do it... physical ability is there but mental ability to perform is lagging...
I initially started TRT for energy, mood, overall well being, libido, etc... I worked 14 yrs as a Federal Air Marshal and I was getting burned out.. My workouts were suffering, my energy levels were going down, etc... One of my co-workers suggested getting my blood levels checked and possibly getting on TRT.. I got blood levels checked and Total Test and Free Test were low and the doc encouraged TRT.. My initial experience in the beginning was good, awesome pumps in gym, good libido, decent mood considering, etc.. but as time went on I started suffering the symptoms I stated earlier in the post. The doc I was initially seeing didn't really understand all the "in's and out's and nuances" that TRT administration and monitoring requires.. So for me the 200mg of Cyp per week was too high as I did have very top range TT and above range FT...
In the past 2 years, I have adjusted my dosing and found my sweet spot anywhere between 140 - 170 mg/wk (depending on ester prop/cyp) and dosing Eod or ED... Even though I still suffer from my previously stated issues, I feel much better than I did in the first 7 yrs with 200 and higher Cyp per wk.... My FT currently sits in the 80-90% of top reference range, TT is 60-70% of Ref range (labcorp) and SHBG is still in the bottom 10% of labcorp ref range...
Honestly, I believe somewhere in my hormone pathway since starting TRT it got messed up.. The culprit that I believe is causing me the issues (brain fog, memory issues, lack of mental motivation) is the Thyroid low FT4 and low Total T4... TRT gives me physical energy, libido (no issues getting it up and performing) but its the mental fatigue that prevents me from being 100%... I guess the bests analogy I can up with is that I can easily physically sprint down the block and lift a 200lb box/item but I don't feel like getting out of my chair to do it... physical ability is there but mental ability to perform is lagging...
@madman
I started researching Testosterone dosing and it's effects on brain neurotransmitters.... I'm starting to believe that my high doses of Test (approx 200mg/wk) over the past 9-10 yrs have completely shutdown/burnt out/reduced my dopamine (as well as other CNS functions).... not too mention lack of quality sleep, etc.....
I am completely retooling my TRT and I am dropping down to 100mg/wk (with small ED SQ injection)... I am going to see how my body reacts to this protocol/how I feel physically/mentally......
I started researching Testosterone dosing and it's effects on brain neurotransmitters.... I'm starting to believe that my high doses of Test (approx 200mg/wk) over the past 9-10 yrs have completely shutdown/burnt out/reduced my dopamine (as well as other CNS functions).... not too mention lack of quality sleep, etc.....
I am completely retooling my TRT and I am dropping down to 100mg/wk (with small ED SQ injection)... I am going to see how my body reacts to this protocol/how I feel physically/mentally......
lemonflavor
Member
Billy, if that were the case, wouldn't they be shot at nearly any dose now? It could be any number of things, many of which we can't even know about yet. Let us know how it goes. I really hope it helps, in one way or another.
I was thinking that... So I was thinking about taking a small 2 week break of no shots, letting whatever test I have clear out.. (should be fast since I have low SHBG) and then restart again with small ED shots.... fingers crossed...
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