TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building

[Nelson Vergel]

Any specific reason ur not taking vitamin D? Been doing a bunch of research about it recently, so jc

I corrected the post. Meant 5000 IU Vitamin D not C

 

[Nelson Vergel]

This may be the singular most meaningful post I’ve ready on Excelmale. Thank you for your candidness and insights @Nelson Vergel . Mental health and AAS is an incredibly important topic

You are welcomed

You may want to read this story:

Anabolic Steroid Pioneer Dr. Michael Dullnig and the Evolution of Steroid Laws

Musculardevelopment.com - The greatest selection of Hardcore Bodybuilding Articles, Contests, Workout videos, Community forums, Exercises, and Supplements to help you achieve your best physique!

www.musculardevelopment.com

 

[DS3]

You are welcomed

You may want to read this story:

Anabolic Steroid Pioneer Dr. Michael Dullnig and the Evolution of Steroid Laws

Musculardevelopment.com - The greatest selection of Hardcore Bodybuilding Articles, Contests, Workout videos, Community forums, Exercises, and Supplements to help you achieve your best physique!

www.musculardevelopment.com

Awesome story! The work of Dr. Dullnig, followed by Dr. Jekot and yourself is inspiring.

 

[bixt]

In general my mental health gets worse the more AAS I have in my system and this isn't just with Testosterone, but also Nandrolone and Oxandrolone. So basically every category of AAS.

Am I an outlier or do most people end up having these issues?

I too thought that, so I have played with whatever I could get my hands on.
Tren and Winstrol (with testosterone) give me a certain drive and maniac determination.

Instead of dragging ass to the gym, I look forward almost every minute of the day, to when I can hit the weights again. In the gym, there is a wicked motivation to push balls to the wall, beyond failure, and I keep impressing myself with new PRs.

Tren comes with heavy side effects, and I DO NOT recommend it. A winstrol as a pre workout seems to come with the above mentioned good effects and no side effects for me. But also not sustainable on paper except for short usage due to the LDL effects.

Strangely Masteron doesnt give me the effects Winstrol does, contrary to every anecdote I have read. Tried many brands.

Want to try "Stanolone" next which is pure DHT as opposed to a DHT derivative. Also want to try scrotal cream.

 

[Gman86]

I too thought that, so I have played with whatever I could get my hands on.
Tren and Winstrol (with testosterone) give me a certain drive and maniac determination.

Instead of dragging ass to the gym, I look forward almost every minute of the day, to when I can hit the weights again. In the gym, there is a wicked motivation to push balls to the wall, beyond failure, and I keep impressing myself with new PRs.

Tren comes with heavy side effects, and I DO NOT recommend it. A winstrol as a pre workout seems to come with the above mentioned good effects and no side effects for me. But also not sustainable on paper except for short usage due to the LDL effects.

Strangely Masteron doesnt give me the effects Winstrol does, contrary to every anecdote I have read. Tried many brands.

Want to try "Stanolone" next which is pure DHT as opposed to a DHT derivative. Also want to try scrotal cream.

Have u ever tried Oxandrolone? Was using it sublingual pre workout for a while, only on workout days. Definitely was an amazing pre workout. Workouts were definitely more fun on it.

 

[bixt]

Have u ever tried Oxandrolone? Was using it sublingual pre workout for a while, only on workout days. Definitely was an amazing pre workout. Workouts were definitely more fun on it.

No its one of the few things I havnt (yet) tried, along with primo. Just havnt seen a need to.

 

[Gman86]

No its one of the few things I havnt (yet) tried, along with primo. Just havnt seen a need to.

Huh, that’s funny, those are the two I’m most interested in out of all the DHT derivatives lol. Everything I’ve read about primo is pretty amazing. Have read a bunch of anecdotes of guys adding it to their TRT regimen, to control E2, and feeling much better than on test alone

What dose of Winstrol do u use when u use it? It’s injectable, correct? How often do u inject it?

 

[bixt]

What dose of Winstrol do u use when u use it? It’s injectable, correct? How often do u inject it?

I do not use winstrol as a permanent addition to TRT/cycle etc, I hear its terrible on lipids as well as joints. 200-250mg a week testosterone serves me well, 99% of the time.

So what am I doing playing with other compounds if 200-250mg test works so well?

What I do is experiment with different things for short periods, days or weeks, to see how it affects strengh, libido, confidence etc. Purely to check the effects and store in the back of my draw should a situation ever arise where I need an emergency "boost" or I will admit a party drug.

Winstrol has an immediate effect (for me) on strengh and libido and confidence. Hence there was no need to use or carry on testing on a continuous basis.

I have used 15mg tablets. Half seems to not have much effect once off, one tablet is excellent as a pre workout, two tablets definitely make me high for the entire day.

 

[Gman86]

I do not use winstrol as a permanent addition to TRT/cycle etc, I hear its terrible on lipids as well as joints. 200-250mg a week testosterone serves me well, 99% of the time.

So what am I doing playing with other compounds if 200-250mg test works so well?

What I do is experiment with different things for short periods, days or weeks, to see how it affects strengh, libido, confidence etc. Purely to check the effects and store in the back of my draw should a situation ever arise where I need an emergency "boost" or I will admit a party drug.

Winstrol has an immediate effect (for me) on strengh and libido and confidence. Hence there was no need to use or carry on testing on a continuous basis.

I have used 15mg tablets. Half seems to not have much effect once off, one tablet is excellent as a pre workout, two tablets definitely make me high for the entire day.

Zero judgment here. Kind of sucks that we need to justify things that make us happier or give us a better quality of life, just because it’s not the “standard trt” but it is what it is. But I personally support everyone doing what makes them happy. But this is a trt/ health forum, so I see why it seems controversial to discuss adding other AAS, even when it’s low dose, or taken only on workout days to improve the quality of ur workout and to make it more fun and enjoyable to be there, or god forbid someone on TRT is interested in putting on more muscle and looking better physically, which obv would make any guy happier. But anyways lol, thanks for the reply and ur anecdote. I never had labs done using 20mg of Oxandrolone sublingual preworkout, but I’m very curious if it even had any noticeable negative effects on my bloodwork. My guess is that it didn’t. I only workout 3 days a week, so it was only 60mg total per week, and I took it sublingually, just to get the benefit of it while I was at the gym, so with it being in and out quicker, I’m assuming it had less of an effect on labs than taking it orally. Obv some of it still gets to the stomach, but I tried to leave it in my mouth for as long as possible to get max sublingual absorption.

 

[JA Battle]

I agree that happiness is very important. This forum has a huge responsibility as a hub of information to guide men’s choices as it pertains to both longevity and functioning. That’s what separates us from the other sites. I think that discussing solely what feels right in the moment has its place but should be seen through the lens of sustainability. It’s very important and the biggest differentiator between us and the rest of the brosciemce communities on the internet.

I’m not opposed to adjacent therapies or experiments as many of you know I’ve injected esterfied dht, esterfied estradiol, topical dht, topical e2, oral and topical and injected dhea, dheas, preg, and prog, trestolone, and all types of dosages but not frequencies. I’m now experimenting 35mg test cyp 2x weekly and other less frequent protocols. I have a low dose plus injectable e2 experiment and a serm plus natesto experiment as next.

It is very important for our brothers to attempt to find an answer on t alone first. I’ve met many that have tinkered with t only and figured out a way to a healthy balanced life. If they felt as though other compounds are potentially a shortcut, they may never have stuck with it to figure it out. Balance and determination are important too. Not just the fastest most expedient path.

It’s important for readers to see both dialogue. Our dialogue is so valuable to many men and we have the responsibility of giving safe and sound advice while also providing information on other avenues to explore when it’s not working out. Love all my bro’s here.

 

[Gman86]

I agree that happiness is very important. This forum has a huge responsibility as a hub of information to guide men’s choices as it pertains to both longevity and functioning. That’s what separates us from the other sites. I think that discussing solely what feels right in the moment has its place but should be seen through the lens of sustainability. It’s very important and the biggest differentiator between us and the rest of the brosciemce communities on the internet.

I’m not opposed to adjacent therapies or experiments as many of you know I’ve injected esterfied dht, esterfied estradiol, topical dht, topical e2, oral and topical and injected dhea, dheas, preg, and prog, trestolone, and all types of dosages but not frequencies. I’m now experimenting 35mg test cyp 2x weekly and other less frequent protocols. I have a low dose plus injectable e2 experiment and a serm plus natesto experiment as next.

It is very important for our brothers to attempt to find an answer on t alone first. I’ve met many that have tinkered with t only and figured out a way to a healthy balanced life. If they felt as though other compounds are potentially a shortcut, they may never have stuck with it to figure it out. Balance and determination are important too. Not just the fastest most expedient path.

It’s important for readers to see both dialogue. Our dialogue is so valuable to many men and we have the responsibility of giving safe and sound advice while also providing information on other avenues to explore when it’s not working out. Love all my bro’s here.

Totally agree. Great reply. I personally am taking the approach of kind of pushing HRT a little to feel and look better, which obv makes me happier, but not pushing it to the point where my blood work gets too skewed. I’m trying to find the perfect balance between health/ longevity and feeling and looking good, which again helps me enjoy my life more while I’m here. I also have a rule where I’ll only implement things to my protocol if I they can be part of my protocol for life. I personally don’t ever want to cycle anything. I’ve been a health freak my entire life, and plan on living well past 100. But I also want to be as happy as humanly possible, be as good of a person to people close to me as possible, and just enjoy life as much as I can while I’m here. So for me I’m constantly trying to find the perfect balance between looking and feeling good, while maximizing health and longevity. So I obv support anyone here that’s looking to intelligently experiment to find the perfect balance that works for them

 

[Kiyoshimellor]

Hi All,

I'm a male, 32, with normal/solid levels of testosterone (650 ng/dl TT). I've been exercising on and off since I was a teenager but have only been on a proper weightlifting and diet protocol for the past 6 months with a professional bodybuilder with my main goal being to obtain a great body. I’ve seen some modest improvements in my physique, however, my genes are just not suited to gain fat free mass commensurately with the effort I put into my diet and exercise routine. To get the same results most people would, I’d have to work out twice as hard and with a perfect diet (weighing food, eliminating refined sugar, managing calories and fat intake to an extreme degree, etc.), essentially indefinitely.

I understand the importance of patience and I'm willing to wait to see results, but the point is that the sacrifice is just too great if it means doing this forever. Eating rice, broccoli, and chicken breast is no way to live, especially because I'm a huge foodie and amateur chef and enjoying unhealthy meals is a principal enjoyment of life for me. Thus, I’m exploring TRT to increase my TT to the 1,100 range ng/dl as a means of giving me the ability to get a great body while maintaining a somewhat normal diet. Of course, I’m no fool and understand that TRT is not a magic cure; I’ll still have to monitor my diet, consume proper amounts of protein, and maintain a consistent exercise routine regardless of any exogenous means of enhancement. But the hope is that TRT will obviously give me a solid edge so that the results are more commensurate with the sacrifices I’m making.

With that in mind, I’m trying to understand whether it is worth the risk to see the results. But most discussions on this forum are centered on older men who want to bring their T levels up to normal ranges (i.e. as a treatment for those who are medically indicated for it) rather than people like me who are pursuing it mainly for aesthetic reasons. So I’m not really sure what the risks are… So the main overarching question is:

Is taking TRT at a relatively young age when my levels are normal and bringing them to supraphysiological levels (1,100-1,200 ng/dl TT) for an extended period of time (many years) risky to my health assuming I am following the monitoring and management targets set by Nelson (hematocrit, blood pressure, etc.) to ensure there are no signs of cardiovascular or other issues? Essentially, what I’m asking is: what are the risks of increasing testosterone to supraphysiological levels over the long term?

[Same question for HCG]
[Same question for HGH, specifically Ipamorelin + CJC-1295]

Most of the studies I’ve seen show that TRT improves nearly all-cause mortality when increased from pathologically low levels up to normal levels, but I haven’t been able to find any data on supraphysiological levels. @madman shared a great post that showed that there are risks to neurological health with supraphysiological doses (Androgen abuse and the brain) but he used the catchall term of ‘androgens’ and the studies he referenced mentioned ‘AAS’, so I wasn’t able to determine if this was limited specifically to TRT or if it included synthetics (i.e. steroid abuse) as well.

By the way, I didn’t mean to bore everyone with a full background on my life story and reasoning; I’m just trying to pre-empt the inevitable responses that are some iteration of “it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, which is what most doctors would say; that is, that I shouldn’t increase my T levels when they are already in healthy ranges purely for aesthetic reasons. I respectfully disagree. According to that logic, nobody should get nose jobs or breast implants. There’s nothing “wrong” with using modern technology to improve your appearance. It’s just a question of risk and reward, according to each individual’s risk tolerance and goals in life. For example, using anabolic steroids will provide immense improvements, but the pros are outweighed by the cons in this instance. It’s a personal decision, as I’m sure many of you would agree with.

Thank you all so much!

@Nelson Vergel
@Vince

T Nation is the site for you . Five years minimum on strict diet and lifting to reach genetic potential before going down that dark road my friend . Good luck

 

[JA Battle]

Totally agree. Great reply. I personally am taking the approach of kind of pushing HRT a little to feel and look better, which obv makes me happier, but not pushing it to the point where my blood work gets too skewed. I’m trying to find the perfect balance between health/ longevity and feeling and looking good, which again helps me enjoy my life more while I’m here. I also have a rule where I’ll only implement things to my protocol if I they can be part of my protocol for life. I personally don’t ever want to cycle anything. I’ve been a health freak my entire life, and plan on living well past 100. But I also want to be as happy as humanly possible, be as good of a person to people close to me as possible, and just enjoy life as much as I can while I’m here. So for me I’m constantly trying to find the perfect balance between looking and feeling good, while maximizing health and longevity. So I obv support anyone here that’s looking to intelligently experiment to find the perfect balance that works for them

I’ve always appreciated your zeal for health. I really admire your dedication to diet and having fun. It seems like you have built a lot of good habits that continue to serve you well. I bet you are a really cool guy in person. Thanks for all you offer bro

 

[MrWrldWide]

T Nation is the site for you . Five years minimum on strict diet and lifting to reach genetic potential before going down that dark road my friend . Good luck

I have to concur here. I have no issue with anyone at all exploring TRT for aesthetic reasons, barring a few minor (not really minor) points:

1) 6 mos of hard dieting, working out, experimenting with different supplements, different workout modes, etc - this is not enough!! You need AT LEAST 5 straight years of consistent diet, trying different types of workouts, different splits, different routines, different supplements, etc - to even get anywhere close to your natural, genetic potential. Hell, it takes 12-18 mos of near perfection to even get all those newbie gains everyone misses so much. As an example, have you tried anything besides just lifting weights? Crossfit, MMA, HIIT, etc? Have you tried natural bulking and cutting diet cycles? Have you tried full-body splits or two-time-per-week splits, or cardio morning/lifting evening splits? Have you tried supplementing with BCAAs, protein, creatine, etc, etc, while factoring timing relative to workout and rest? You must work-through/experiment with all of these things and find the combo that works for you and implement for a couple of years before getting anywhere close to your natural potential.

2) As many here have said, once you start down the road of TRT, you're almost guaranteed to be on it for life, even if you think you're not. It's possible you might be one of those people who somehow does a couple of cycles, then never touches the stuff again. But, that's highly unlikely. Once one feels the incredible mental and physical benefits of exogenous T (or other AAS for that matter), they're unlikely to ever want to give that up. Not a deal-breaker, by any means - just something to think about.

3) Fertility - you run tremendous risk of losing fertility with TRT. I started TRT after several extremely low T tests, and having already had 3 kids. Despite that, I'm now struggling to regain my fertility b/c Mama wants one more. And, believe me brother, "struggling" is an understatement when Mama wants a baby before her clock runs out and you've got no swimmers due to years of TRT and best-case scenarios processes are measured in months; not days or weeks. You just have to trust me on that one.

IF you've thought through all of this, and still decide you want to take the risk, then by all means, I see no problem with trying to optimize your T (and other hormones, if necessary) in order to look and feel like the best version of yourself. While I certainly noticed very nice physical enhancement on TRT, the biggest benefits were the extra energy, mental clarity and focus, and drive/ambition I felt from it. All of which I never knew I was missing until having my T tested and realizing I had the TT levels of an 80-something year old man.

Wish you all the best in your decision, and hope you're long-term happy with whatever direction you decide to take it.

 

[Dicky]

Early Left Ventricular Diastolic Dysfunction, Reduced Baroreflex Sensitivity, and Cardiac Autonomic Imbalance in Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Users - PubMed

The effects of androgen anabolic steroids (AAS) use on athletes' cardiac autonomic activity in terms of baroreflex sensitivity (BRS), and heart rate variability (HRV) have not yet been adequately studied. Furthermore, there is no information to describe the possible relationship between the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Long Term Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Use is Associated with Left Ventricular Dysfunction - PMC

Although illicit anabolic-androgenic steroid (AAS) use is widespread, the cardiac effects of long-term AAS use remain inadequately characterized. We compared cardiac parameters in weightlifters reporting long-term AAS use to those in otherwise ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Frontiers | Anabolic Androgenic Steroids Induce Reversible Left Ventricular Hypertrophy and Cardiac Dysfunction. Echocardiography Results of the HAARLEM Study

Background: The use of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) is not uncommon among strength athletes. Several cross-sectional studies have linked AAS use to hea...

www.frontiersin.org

How the love of muscle can break a heart: Impact of anabolic androgenic steroids on skeletal muscle hypertrophy, metabolic and cardiovascular health - PubMed

It is estimated 6.4% of males and 1.6% of females globally use anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS), mostly for appearance and performance enhancing reasons. In combination with resistance exercise, AAS use increases muscle protein synthesis resulting in skeletal muscle hypertrophy and increased...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

How bad do you want it and how much do you enjoy a functional cardiovascular system? It's 2022...all of this information is at your fingertips.

Yes, testosterone is an anabolic steroid and don't fall for the BS that testosterone is bioidentical and the other synthetic AAS are the only culprits when it comes to cardiovascular harm.

You have what appears to be a functional HPTGA. Congrats.

These studies are interesting and can def serve as a warning to potential users. What I dislike about these types of studies is that they usually say something like "AAS use/abuse is associated with (some adverse impact here)". To me it is super annoying that scientific articles are written about this subject, with no quantification of dosages involved.

Most of the studies I have seen never tell you that the test subjects took XX amount of YY substances. No, instead they just say AAS use or abuse. So sure, somebody taking a gram of Test C with 1/2 gram of nandrolone can expect to see some adverse impacts. But is this really the same as a dude taking 75mg of Test C weekly? I would think not. But nevertheless, they both fall into the AAS user/abuser category. BTW what is AAS abuse anyway? Have any of these studies defined it?

Sorry for the rant but it chaps my buns to see a study tell me that test subjects ejection fraction declined by 5.386% (to pull a precise number from my hat) from AAS abuse without defining the doses involved. This always strikes me that the authors are trying to use the study as a scare tactic instead of getting at the truth.

BTW, this criticism is in no way directed at @readalot. I always appreciate his perspective and hard-earned knowledge.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I recommend that you follow Dr O’Connor since he is the main doctor on social media covering anabolic steroid risk minimization.

Follow him on Instagram. He has videos almost daily.

The Anabolic Doc App

Thomas O'Connor, MD's digital diagnostic and management tool plus weekly live Q&A with Dr. O'Connor focusing on internal medicine issues and men on androgens

anabolicdocapp.com

 

[tareload]

These studies are interesting and can def serve as a warning to potential users. What I dislike about these types of studies is that they usually say something like "AAS use/abuse is associated with (some adverse impact here)". To me it is super annoying that scientific articles are written about this subject, with no quantification of dosages involved.

Most of the studies I have seen never tell you that the test subjects took XX amount of YY substances. No, instead they just say AAS use or abuse. So sure, somebody taking a gram of Test C with 1/2 gram of nandrolone can expect to see some adverse impacts. But is this really the same as a dude taking 75mg of Test C weekly? I would think not. But nevertheless, they both fall into the AAS user/abuser category. BTW what is AAS abuse anyway? Have any of these studies defined it?

Sorry for the rant but it chaps my buns to see a study tell me that test subjects ejection fraction declined by 5.386% (to pull a precise number from my hat) from AAS abuse without defining the doses involved. This always strikes me that the authors are trying to use the study as a scare tactic instead of getting at the truth.

BTW, this criticism is in no way directed at @readalot. I always appreciate his perspective and hard-earned knowledge.

I understand your point and it's a good one. We aren't going to get any double blind studies (RCTs) to study AAS dose/cumulative dose vs outcome (insert measurement here). You can gain some insight into plausible (sometimes implausible) mechanisms from the animal/rodent literature (make sure you correct for HED) but even that is fraught with potential error.

I thought the HAARLEM study posted above was decent and gives some reasonable trends:

Frontiers | Anabolic Androgenic Steroids Induce Reversible Left Ventricular Hypertrophy and Cardiac Dysfunction. Echocardiography Results of the HAARLEM Study

Background: The use of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) is not uncommon among strength athletes. Several cross-sectional studies have linked AAS use to hea...

www.frontiersin.org

For those that missed the above link there's some decent stuff in here:

Microdosing Enanthate

Slightly being defined as past the upper quartile but not double the norm. A TT of 1,200 ng/dL would be considered to be slightly supraphyiological. I will take myself as an example of why treating how a patient feels is as important if not more than maintaining physiological testosterone...

www.excelmale.com

Here's a good plot that gets into the challenge for this particular measurement:

Anavar Kicked In, Erection Checked Out

Table 3 has avg HDL at baseline designated at 1 mmol/l with a standard deviation of ± 0.4. Avg depression in HDL is 0.5 with a standard deviation of 0.4. One could extrapolate from this data that a certain subset of patients had abysmally low HDL (0.1-0.2) following treatment with oxandrolone...

forums.t-nation.com

Anavar Kicked In, Erection Checked Out

Thanks for taking the time to review this. Very nice points that heart disease is multi-faceted and you may or may not be able to track markers with comprehensive blood work. Most guys aren’t going to do this and getting a calcium score has its own cost. I know we have reviewed HL/RCT in my...

forums.t-nation.com

At the end of the day the only thing you control is the x-axis and you are somewhere there on the plot (only one data point). The trend by itself makes little difference to you.

 

[tareload]

BTW what is AAS abuse anyway? Have any of these studies defined it?

That's a great question and where does one guy's use become another's abuse.

Honest discussion:

The Anabolic Doc Answers: What Defines Actual Steroid Abuse In Bodybuilding?

Use it, don't abuse it: Where is the actual line drawn when it comes to steroid abuse in bodybuilding? The Anabolic Doc answers...

generationiron.com

Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Use in Sports, Health, and... : Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise

ges that lawful and ethical therapeutic use of AAS is now an accepted mainstream treatment for several clinical disorders; however, there is increased recognition that AAS are commonly used illicitly to enhance performance and appearance in several segments of the population, including...

journals.lww.com

Contact Support

To @Nelson Vergel and @DS3 's points, I think this table is realistic:

I would be using considerably more than 60 mg / week of TC currently if I hadn't run into a heart issue which gave me pause.

 

[tareload]

Most of the studies I have seen never tell you that the test subjects took XX amount of YY substances. No, instead they just say AAS use or abuse. So sure, somebody taking a gram of Test C with 1/2 gram of nandrolone can expect to see some adverse impacts. But is this really the same as a dude taking 75mg of Test C weekly? I would think not.

For the HAARLEM study above:

https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/732318/frph-03-732318-HTML/image_m/frph-03-732318-t001.jpg

​

Clinical Relevance​

Our findings strongly support the cardiotoxic nature of AAS. The changes in cardiac structure and function did not lead to symptoms, however, such as dyspnoea or peripheral oedema, as these were not reported by the subjects. The occurrence of heart failure in users of AAS nevertheless has often been reported (22). We hypothesize that cumulative cardiac damage may follow long-standing AAS use when recovery time in between cycles is too short or when AAS are used continuously. Our data could not substantiate the presence of such cumulative damage as we did not observe a relationship between the extent of prior AAS use and cardiac abnormalities at baseline. Of note, our cohort displayed a wide variety of historic AAS use, ranging from no prior use to 8 years of cumulative AAS use, but no subjects had abused androgens continuously for longer than 1 year. It is therefore likely that progression to clinical heart failure only occurs in those athletes with an excessive history of AAS use, or when an athlete has a prior medical condition affecting the heart, e.g., cardiomyopathy.



Heart Primer and review of above article.

The Effects of Anabolic Steroids on the Heart's Structure and Function

Perhaps one of the most worrying side effects of prolonged anabolic steroid use are those related to the heart. Indeed, a startling amount of case reports

thinksteroids.com

Conclusion

Prolonged anabolic steroid use can affect the structure and function of the heart. These changes appear, at least partly, reversible after cessation of use. It’s hard to translate these findings to concrete numbers which express the risk of heart issues or even mortality with it. Nevertheless, it’s clear that these changes are detrimental to an AAS user’s health. As such, it seems advisable to take an annual echocardiographic assessment to monitor potentially unfavorable changes to cardiac structure and function.


From direct experience I very much concur with the recommendation.

 

[Gladiator]

Hi All,

I'm a male, 32, with normal/solid levels of testosterone (650 ng/dl TT). I've been exercising on and off since I was a teenager but have only been on a proper weightlifting and diet protocol for the past 6 months with a professional bodybuilder with my main goal being to obtain a great body. I’ve seen some modest improvements in my physique, however, my genes are just not suited to gain fat free mass commensurately with the effort I put into my diet and exercise routine. To get the same results most people would, I’d have to work out twice as hard and with a perfect diet (weighing food, eliminating refined sugar, managing calories and fat intake to an extreme degree, etc.), essentially indefinitely.

I understand the importance of patience and I'm willing to wait to see results, but the point is that the sacrifice is just too great if it means doing this forever. Eating rice, broccoli, and chicken breast is no way to live, especially because I'm a huge foodie and amateur chef and enjoying unhealthy meals is a principal enjoyment of life for me. Thus, I’m exploring TRT to increase my TT to the 1,100 range ng/dl as a means of giving me the ability to get a great body while maintaining a somewhat normal diet. Of course, I’m no fool and understand that TRT is not a magic cure; I’ll still have to monitor my diet, consume proper amounts of protein, and maintain a consistent exercise routine regardless of any exogenous means of enhancement. But the hope is that TRT will obviously give me a solid edge so that the results are more commensurate with the sacrifices I’m making.

With that in mind, I’m trying to understand whether it is worth the risk to see the results. But most discussions on this forum are centered on older men who want to bring their T levels up to normal ranges (i.e. as a treatment for those who are medically indicated for it) rather than people like me who are pursuing it mainly for aesthetic reasons. So I’m not really sure what the risks are… So the main overarching question is:

Is taking TRT at a relatively young age when my levels are normal and bringing them to supraphysiological levels (1,100-1,200 ng/dl TT) for an extended period of time (many years) risky to my health assuming I am following the monitoring and management targets set by Nelson (hematocrit, blood pressure, etc.) to ensure there are no signs of cardiovascular or other issues? Essentially, what I’m asking is: what are the risks of increasing testosterone to supraphysiological levels over the long term?

[Same question for HCG]
[Same question for HGH, specifically Ipamorelin + CJC-1295]

Most of the studies I’ve seen show that TRT improves nearly all-cause mortality when increased from pathologically low levels up to normal levels, but I haven’t been able to find any data on supraphysiological levels. @madman shared a great post that showed that there are risks to neurological health with supraphysiological doses (Androgen abuse and the brain) but he used the catchall term of ‘androgens’ and the studies he referenced mentioned ‘AAS’, so I wasn’t able to determine if this was limited specifically to TRT or if it included synthetics (i.e. steroid abuse) as well.

By the way, I didn’t mean to bore everyone with a full background on my life story and reasoning; I’m just trying to pre-empt the inevitable responses that are some iteration of “it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, which is what most doctors would say; that is, that I shouldn’t increase my T levels when they are already in healthy ranges purely for aesthetic reasons. I respectfully disagree. According to that logic, nobody should get nose jobs or breast implants. There’s nothing “wrong” with using modern technology to improve your appearance. It’s just a question of risk and reward, according to each individual’s risk tolerance and goals in life. For example, using anabolic steroids will provide immense improvements, but the pros are outweighed by the cons in this instance. It’s a personal decision, as I’m sure many of you would agree with.

Thank you all so much!

@Nelson Vergel
@Vince

So you want the easy way out by using steroids?