Question about supraphysiological dosages of testosterone

[Vince Carter]

Is the ester release rate different than the half-life or we using those terms interchangeably? @Cataceous

 

[DragonBits]

Testosterone dose-response relationships
in healthy young men

https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.2001.281.6.E1172

With high (supraphysiological) levels of Total T and FT, you can expect higher IGF-1 and lower HDL, along with more muscles and more fat free mass.

I expect over the longer term an enlarged heart and earlier than expected death, though this study was only for 20 weeks so it didn't have last long enough to show that effect.

It seems like in the short term HDL should decline (and IGF-1 increase) more than expected and that the higher the testosterone dose the more this happens, has anyone that has tried this noticed that in their blood work?

 

[Cataceous]

https://anabolic.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/testcyp.jpg

I'm trying to figure this out myself, after reading your comment.

So, if this graph is to be believed, it seems that the first 3 days of injection, the serum level only deviates from about 47.5 to 45 ng/mL. These are supraphysiological levels, so I tried to scale it down to a percentage that would make sense for TRT. For discussion's sake, if 47.5 gave you a test level of 700, 45 would give you a level of 660. Unless you had low shbg I would think this means the levels would hold very steady?

My argument is that the shape of the curve changes little for different SHBG values. So for example, a guy with low SHBG might have the top of the Y axis be 500 ng/dL. But if we could give him high SHBG and change nothing else then the top of the Y axis might be 1,000 ng/dL for the same dose of testosterone cypionate. Free testosterone would be the opposite: high for low SHBG and low for high SHBG

To apply the graph to TRT you need to sum the curve with itself at every injection interval. This smooths the resulting serum curve, particularly as the injection cycle gets small relative to the ester half-life.

 

[Cataceous]

Is the ester release rate different than the half-life or we using those terms interchangeably? @Cataceous

My thought is that as long as the ester release rate—over days—is much slower than the metabolic clearance rate—over hours—then the ester release rate controls the apparent serum half-life.

 

[Vince Carter]

I think that the metabolic clearance rate, as Dr C described the low SHBG guy as pissing it out, but not seeing the same clearance rate with the Estrogen, I do think that it negates the 6 day(?) half-life of Cyp. I mean there's no way I can subsist on the listed half-life of Cypionate. In a relatively normal SHBG (whatever that number could be; 30?) perhaps the body has a relationship with that listed half-life work that would work better.

 

[antelopers]

I think that the metabolic clearance rate, as Dr C described the low SHBG guy as pissing it out, but not seeing the same clearance rate with the Estrogen, I do think that it negates the 6 day(?) half-life of Cyp. I mean there's no way I can subsist on the listed half-life of Cypionate. In a relatively normal SHBG (whatever that number could be; 30?) perhaps the body has a relationship with that listed half-life work that would work better.

You're a low shbg guy if I'm not mistaken, did you ever compare your peak and trough e2 levels when on less frequent injections?

 

[Vince Carter]

no but Ive wanted to run a set of labs 6-8hrs post 16mg injection. Ive been doing well enough that i haven't been mucking with things much.

 

[Vince Carter]

The understatement of 2019, to date

People on here seems to really microanalyze the little details.

 

[DragonBits]

Those expectations don’t mean much. I didn’t experience an igf-1 increase or HDL decline going from 200 too 300/wk.

There’s more evidence to show slightly Supra physiological levels will lengthen life span than there is to shorten it. Not saying the verdict is in, but your statements are our conjecture and more than likely false.

Testosterone is not a dangerous substance. Hell, AAS is general is kinda hard to kill somebody with. People get completely stupid with hard compounds, and THEN they end up with heart problems. Thinking running 250mg vs 150mg is going to impact health significantly is laughable. People on here seems to really microanalyze the little details.

Funny thing about that is getting on TRT helped me to stop sweating the little things. Lol

The study I posted went up to 600 mg a week. 2370 T total and 275 free T.

At 300 mg there was only a small decrease in HDL, like from 47>41 after 20 weeks.

They said at 300 mg dose there SHBG started to get lower and IGF-1 started to rise, though it really increased at 600 mg dose.

When my total T gets past 1300 ng/dl, my E2 gets too high causing water weight gain. Personally I don't go by XXXmg dose I only look at serum levels of T, since i am not doing the typical protocol it's hard to compare.

 

[DragonBits]

Those expectations don’t mean much. I didn’t experience an igf-1 increase or HDL decline going from 200 too 300/wk.

There’s more evidence to show slightly Supra physiological levels will lengthen life span than there is to shorten it. Not saying the verdict is in, but your statements are our conjecture and more than likely false.

Testosterone is not a dangerous substance. Hell, AAS is general is kinda hard to kill somebody with. People get completely stupid with hard compounds, and THEN they end up with heart problems. Thinking running 250mg vs 150mg is going to impact health significantly is laughable. People on here seems to really microanalyze the little details.

Funny thing about that is getting on TRT helped me to stop sweating the little things. Lol

BTW U_joe, what were your serum levels of Total T, free T and if you know, shbg when at 300 / week?

Just curious. I do agree, people tend to microanalyze.

 

[Cataceous]

I think that the metabolic clearance rate, as Dr C described the low SHBG guy as pissing it out, but not seeing the same clearance rate with the Estrogen, I do think that it negates the 6 day(?) half-life of Cyp. I mean there's no way I can subsist on the listed half-life of Cypionate. In a relatively normal SHBG (whatever that number could be; 30?) perhaps the body has a relationship with that listed half-life work that would work better.

The part about estradiol does align with theory. It's interesting to plug some numbers into the free estradiol calculator. Starting with high SHBG and going to low—e.g. 60 nmol/L --> 15 nmol/L, we see that free T doubles, effectively doubling the MCR, but free E2 only goes up by 50%. This could lead to a buildup of estradiol relative to testosterone.

 

[S1W]

Thinking running 250mg vs 150mg is going to impact health significantly is laughable. People on here seems to really microanalyze the little details.

Overall I agree with your sentiments, and I also run levels that are above lab ranges and am good with it. But man, if we're talking a long-term protocol, a 100mg increase in dosage at least with how I respond, would very likely have a significant impact on my health. My HCT and BP would be sky high.

 

[Vince Carter]

The part about estradiol does align with theory. It's interesting to plug some numbers into the free estradiol calculator. Starting with high SHBG and going to low—e.g. 60 nmol/L --> 15 nmol/L, we see that free T doubles, effectively doubling the MCR, but free E2 only goes up by 50%. This could lead to a buildup of estradiol relative to testosterone.

FOR me and I still need to put that free E calc to use...but my daily injection of 16mg I think that I do have a relative high point of T in the 10-12hr window but I get a rather good drop from that point on. I get some fatigue and a waning libido and ED and such at that point where I'm passing thru 12hrs post injection, where the T is dropping but the E stays up. I further see that that E finally breaks when I'm in bed asleep hours later which results in heat/sweats as I suspect some water retention finally breaks.

 

[Cataceous]

FOR me and I still need to put that free E calc to use...but my daily injection of 16mg I think that I do have a relative high point of T in the 10-12hr window but I get a rather good drop from that point on. I get some fatigue and a waning libido and ED and such at that point where I'm passing thru 12hrs post injection, where the T is dropping but the E stays up. I further see that that E finally breaks when I'm in bed asleep hours later which results in heat/sweats as I suspect some water retention finally breaks.

There's little doubt that estradiol lags testosterone, both rising and falling. If my simulations are right then the delay is maybe a few hours with frequent injections, like ED, and around half a day with infrequent ones, like E10D.

 

[lemonflavor]

I wonder if supraphysiological levels would be therapeutic for some people who deal with some level of chronic fatigue or depression that isn't a direct result of low T, or only because of low T. I would imagine this has been studied? It would probably get be a complicated scenario. I might be a good case study if it wasn't for the fact that I can't handle very much testosterone, at least not now. And I already have more acne than when I was a teenager.