T
tareload
Guest
Sounds exciting. Give us all the details....thanks.
TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building
- Thread starter LionTamer
- Start date
T
tareload
Guest
Nandrolone for Mood | Feeling much Better..
I have heard of cases where the only thing used was testosterone and lead to a similar situation. I am pretty sure that’s what this case study illustrates: testosterone alone led to this gentleman’s cardiac issues.
www.excelmale.com
May 2022 case report.
SteveCleves
Well-Known Member
@readalot
Have you looked at all at the intermountain study? I would love your thoughts on it and how it fits into this pretty amazing statistical model and compilation you’ve done.
It’s the study that most “gurus” point to as a counter to the theory that Testosterone negatively affects the CV system.
www.excelmale.com
Have you looked at all at the intermountain study? I would love your thoughts on it and how it fits into this pretty amazing statistical model and compilation you’ve done.
It’s the study that most “gurus” point to as a counter to the theory that Testosterone negatively affects the CV system.
Testosterone replacement protects men with preexisting heart disease
1206M-07 - Clinical Effects of Testosterone Supplementation Among Hypo-Androgenic Men With Preexisting Severe Coronary Artery Disease: The Intermountain Heart Collaborative Study http://www.abstractsonline.com/pp8/#!/3874/presentation/43323 Authors Tami L. Bair, Heidi May, Viet T. Le...
www.excelmale.com
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T
tareload
Guest
@readalot
Have you looked at all at the intermountain study? I would love your thoughts on it. It’s the study that most “gurus” point to as a counter to the theory that Testosterone negatively affects the CV system.
Testosterone replacement protects men with preexisting heart disease
1206M-07 - Clinical Effects of Testosterone Supplementation Among Hypo-Androgenic Men With Preexisting Severe Coronary Artery Disease: The Intermountain Heart Collaborative Study http://www.abstractsonline.com/pp8/#!/3874/presentation/43323 Authors Tami L. Bair, Heidi May, Viet T. Le...
Hey, thanks for the link. I do remember seeing this but would love to have a gander at the distribution of TT in the study (especially the "high" arm which is labeled as >742 ng/dl). I wonder how many of those 140 were treated with mean TT level above range say 1000-1200 ng/dl. I am betting $1 not many. No ethical cardiologist would operate outside reasonable standard of care.
If anyone has a link to the raw data or companion publication please share. To me a big difference between what is labeled "high" here and a typical TOT protocol of 1200-1500 ng/dl TT trough (fT many times between 30-50 ng/dl).
The science seems pretty understandable in my mind. Too little or too much T is bad. What is too much T at the individual level (dose response) over time? How bad do you want to know?
Last edited by a moderator:
SteveCleves
Well-Known Member
I suspect you are correct and most of these gents were on the standard mainstream gel or 75mg-100mg a week auto-injector.The science seems pretty understandable in my mind. Too little or too much T is bad. What is too much T at the individual level (dose response) over time? How bad do you want to know?
One thing though this does seem to challenge somewhat is the notion that constantly elevated Test levels is in itself “bad” as opposed to natural diurnal rhythm.
T
tareload
Guest
Yeah these dudes have severe CAD. Probably other stuff on their mind besides perhaps some mild side effects. And good news is the reasonablr T intervention appeared beneficial. Unless we looked at their mode of application and how the TT levels were assessed it is hard to comment on the pharmacokinetic profile of the treatment.
undercover
New Member
How do you give them a call? Is it only in UK? I'm in the US but would like to get his opinion on my situation
undercover
New Member
How do you give them a call?
Hi just a viewer of this thread and had a question. I understand these are definitley symptoms and side effects of high dose anabolics, but at therapeutic doses will these side effects be common? I have naturally low testosterone at 22 years old. Never did steroids. Levels are 294.5 and I'm considering TRT just because I have little to no libido.
T
tareload
Guest
Good question. Please define what therapeutic means to you. Definitely do your research before taking the dive and go in informed if you go that route.
Many guys seem to to just fine on therapeutic and therapeutic regimens. Lots of experienced and helpful people on here. Welcome.
T
tareload
Guest
@LionTamer
Any updates? What did you end up doing?
Any updates? What did you end up doing?
undercover
New Member
I guess theraputic as in like 100mg per week, or the bare minimum dose of TRT to put me in 600/700 ng/dl range
xqfq
Active Member
This is a fairly old thread, but wanted to respond to OP's question with my own opinion.
Simply put, I don't think that TRT at supraphysiological levels (let's call it "sports TRT") is going to give you what you're looking for, long term. You will gain some immediate water weight and intramuscular glycogen and make some lean muscle gains over the next ~6 months assuming you are regularly weight lifting.
But then those gains will stop. At least the 'bump', fast, immediate-kind of muscle gains. Yes, you will have more muscle mass than the you-without-testosterone. But you won't look like a bodybuilder unless you already kinda look like a bodybuilder (or you did a lot of weight lifting years ago / have muscle-memory).
Then you will be back at square one. You'll have to ask yourself if you want to keep lifting and making gains the old fashioned way: progressive overload, rest, food, repeat. Year after year after year, for the rest of your life.
If what's motivating you keep working out hard, keep eating well, keep yourself on track is the idea that you're going to gain muscle faster with testosterone, that motivation will soon dissipate even on a high-end steady testosterone protocol because the easy gains will tap out.
All you'll do is reset your natural baseline to a higher level[1]. These studies showing the gain in lean muscle mass between, say, 120mg/week and 300mg/week and 600mg/week in young men - they are looking at shorter time frames. They're looking at what I'd consider this 'baseline'.
Now you might say you're not looking to look like a bodybuilder (you say you are looking to build a great body). With all respect, you say you've really only been lifting properly for six months. That is nothing.
When you see really jacked / in shape guys who say they're on TRT, they are almost always:
1. Lying. Have been taking much more than you think.
2. Have taken a lots of anabolics in the past to build a lot of muscle but now maintain it on more TRT-style doses.
3. They have been lifting for years and years. Either before they were on TRT or after being on TRT.
4. Genetically gifted. This usually doesn't have to do with "they gained way more muscle than most people" but rather how someone's muscle insertions / skeletal structure is - stuff you really can't change even with drugs.
Even with heavy, abusive-level usage of anabolic steroids, building a good physique takes a long time. Then you need to keep it. I know guys who take 500mg/week of testosterone year round with various other anabolics and look like they don't even lift. They certainly don't look like ripped Hollywood actors or models.
What's happened is that for various YouTube / Instagram influencers, saying they are on TRT has become acceptable, which IMO is a good thing. So they are more open about it. But they usually fall into one of the above categories.
You need to fall in love with the process itself of bodybuilding or you'll never really keep a good physique.
--
Anyway, so another option is to be more honest about what you want. It sounds like you want to build a lot of muscle in a short period of time. Which would not really happen with "TRT Plus." To do that you'd need to take large doses of anabolics for long periods of time (either in cycles or continuously).
Aka "doing steroids." Which is a totally valid thing to do but I think you need to be honest with yourself about what you want and what the accompanying risk is. Otherwise you may end up neither here nor there.
Beyond health risks, you should keep in mind that while you will grow more muscle in a short period of time, you will face these same issues afterward. You may develop a distorted view of lifting and not find going to the gym all the time, dieting / eating right, etc fun unless you're on large doses of anabolics to grow muscle.
All -- and I mean all -- of my college friends who took anabolics no longer lift.
So I really think there's no free lunch, long term. Even if you take these 600mg/week doses like in these studies, you need progressive overload and good diet to keep building lean muscle mass year after year.
---
This is a great video of a young YouTube fitness influencer who decided to go on TRT to help gain muscle. It's really worth a watch:
Keep in mind this guy looked really good before TRT. He was lifting for years naturally. On TRT (which was probably on the generous end, like what you're thinking of) he gained a little bit more muscle, looked a little bit better. But he already looked really good. He came to the realization that in order to keep gaining lots of muscle he would have to do what he was doing before as a natural..or start blasting large doses of anabolic steroids.
---
If this was a bodybuilding forum then I'd ask you to post a picture because you can kinda get a feel for where someone is at from it.
1. This is a simplification but I hope everyone knows what I'm getting at
Simply put, I don't think that TRT at supraphysiological levels (let's call it "sports TRT") is going to give you what you're looking for, long term. You will gain some immediate water weight and intramuscular glycogen and make some lean muscle gains over the next ~6 months assuming you are regularly weight lifting.
But then those gains will stop. At least the 'bump', fast, immediate-kind of muscle gains. Yes, you will have more muscle mass than the you-without-testosterone. But you won't look like a bodybuilder unless you already kinda look like a bodybuilder (or you did a lot of weight lifting years ago / have muscle-memory).
Then you will be back at square one. You'll have to ask yourself if you want to keep lifting and making gains the old fashioned way: progressive overload, rest, food, repeat. Year after year after year, for the rest of your life.
If what's motivating you keep working out hard, keep eating well, keep yourself on track is the idea that you're going to gain muscle faster with testosterone, that motivation will soon dissipate even on a high-end steady testosterone protocol because the easy gains will tap out.
All you'll do is reset your natural baseline to a higher level[1]. These studies showing the gain in lean muscle mass between, say, 120mg/week and 300mg/week and 600mg/week in young men - they are looking at shorter time frames. They're looking at what I'd consider this 'baseline'.
Now you might say you're not looking to look like a bodybuilder (you say you are looking to build a great body). With all respect, you say you've really only been lifting properly for six months. That is nothing.
When you see really jacked / in shape guys who say they're on TRT, they are almost always:
1. Lying. Have been taking much more than you think.
2. Have taken a lots of anabolics in the past to build a lot of muscle but now maintain it on more TRT-style doses.
3. They have been lifting for years and years. Either before they were on TRT or after being on TRT.
4. Genetically gifted. This usually doesn't have to do with "they gained way more muscle than most people" but rather how someone's muscle insertions / skeletal structure is - stuff you really can't change even with drugs.
Even with heavy, abusive-level usage of anabolic steroids, building a good physique takes a long time. Then you need to keep it. I know guys who take 500mg/week of testosterone year round with various other anabolics and look like they don't even lift. They certainly don't look like ripped Hollywood actors or models.
What's happened is that for various YouTube / Instagram influencers, saying they are on TRT has become acceptable, which IMO is a good thing. So they are more open about it. But they usually fall into one of the above categories.
You need to fall in love with the process itself of bodybuilding or you'll never really keep a good physique.
--
Anyway, so another option is to be more honest about what you want. It sounds like you want to build a lot of muscle in a short period of time. Which would not really happen with "TRT Plus." To do that you'd need to take large doses of anabolics for long periods of time (either in cycles or continuously).
Aka "doing steroids." Which is a totally valid thing to do but I think you need to be honest with yourself about what you want and what the accompanying risk is. Otherwise you may end up neither here nor there.
Beyond health risks, you should keep in mind that while you will grow more muscle in a short period of time, you will face these same issues afterward. You may develop a distorted view of lifting and not find going to the gym all the time, dieting / eating right, etc fun unless you're on large doses of anabolics to grow muscle.
All -- and I mean all -- of my college friends who took anabolics no longer lift.
So I really think there's no free lunch, long term. Even if you take these 600mg/week doses like in these studies, you need progressive overload and good diet to keep building lean muscle mass year after year.
---
This is a great video of a young YouTube fitness influencer who decided to go on TRT to help gain muscle. It's really worth a watch:
Keep in mind this guy looked really good before TRT. He was lifting for years naturally. On TRT (which was probably on the generous end, like what you're thinking of) he gained a little bit more muscle, looked a little bit better. But he already looked really good. He came to the realization that in order to keep gaining lots of muscle he would have to do what he was doing before as a natural..or start blasting large doses of anabolic steroids.
---
If this was a bodybuilding forum then I'd ask you to post a picture because you can kinda get a feel for where someone is at from it.
1. This is a simplification but I hope everyone knows what I'm getting at
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T
tareload
Guest
Hormone therapy for gender dysphoria may raise cardiovascular risks
People with gender dysphoria taking hormone replacements as part of gender affirmation therapy face a substantially increased risk of serious cardiac events, including stroke, heart attack and pulmonary embolism, according to a study presented at the American College of Cardiology’s Annual...
www.eurekalert.org
Politics meets physiology. In case any of you want to book to tickets.
Deleted member 43589
Well-Known Member
No kidding!
"People with gender dysphoria taking hormone replacements as part of gender affirmation therapy" So we are prescribed pharmaceutical drugs because we are confused about our biological sex and allowed to take them to support and affirm our gender identity? Why are we not talking to a psychologists? This stuff is getting silly. But go in and ask a doctor to take steroids to affirm your masculinity...
@Readlot you know when I dumped blood they actually asked me which race I identify as?
"People with gender dysphoria taking hormone replacements as part of gender affirmation therapy" So we are prescribed pharmaceutical drugs because we are confused about our biological sex and allowed to take them to support and affirm our gender identity? Why are we not talking to a psychologists? This stuff is getting silly. But go in and ask a doctor to take steroids to affirm your masculinity...
@Readlot you know when I dumped blood they actually asked me which race I identify as?
OP, I noticed greater gains, faster recovery, and more energy when I was at 1000 then in the 600 hundreds. Being at 1000 was not intentional. I prefer to stay in the 600 range. That being said, I would not go on TRT for that reason if you otherwise have good levels. It is a pain, costs money, and messes up other hormones, as well as shutting down natural production. I only started TRT because my natural levels were in the high 200s. My last test with TRT was 650 and that is fine for me.
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