Testosterone plus Clomid Combination

[Benning78]

Big Tex - I began TRT just about a year ago and my doc (very knowledgable and experienced, has written books on HRT) also prescribed Test Cyp together with 51 mg of Clomid M-W-F, Clomid being for testicular atrophy. After prescribing this to me, I began doing a lot of research on the subject during which I found this excellent forum. I, too, have been confused because I have not been able to find much info that supports this protocol. Everyone else adheres to HCG for testicular atrophy. I understand the reasons why many say this does not work because of the physiological mechanics of what exogenous testosterone does and how this would counteract what Clomid does, but I do know Clomid IS WORKING to keep my testicles from shrinking. Clomid can present side effects in some people, but I cannot say I have experienced any of these side effects.

Seems people doubt what they dont know.
Everyone wants studies and proof but dont wanna try it on them selves.
How do they think studies are done.
I am my own f study and juts like you said it works for me to.
hCG wont touch FSH amd clomid will raise it while on TRT.
I will pist my bloods soon have appointment in December.

 

[HealthMan]

I used tamoxifen (a SERM like clomid) while on testosterone cream (without HCG). At the time i felt that my balls were fuller as well. After a couple of months i tested LH and FSH both <0.1. Maybe there is a weird mechanism that make SERM increases testicle size while on TRT. Maybe your TRT dosage is not supressing your HPTA 100%. Or you might be an unique case. But for 99.9% of people on TRT clomid will do nothing to raise LH and/or FSH lvls

 

[Imazephed]

When I started hrt I started on clomid. It made me feel great those first three or four months. I guess it was from not having had any testosterone in my system for many years. My levels were sub 200 when I finally got tested. Clomid brought me up to around 500 but the great feeling didnt last and I switched to TRT along with hcg and anastrozole. My t levels stay around 1000 now and I feel ok but not anywhere near as good as I did when I first started on clomid those first few months. Thats why I started taking 12.5 clomid eod to see if by chance it helped me feel any better. I can see from my labs that its not doing anything to raise my levels but I do feel a little better. Maybe there is more to it than what the blood work shows? I dont know, I am no dr or scientist. I can tell you that I have noticed I feel a little better taking clomid eod while on trt. So I am going to continue taking it and see how it goes. I just want to feel the best I can and if taking clomid helps me feel a little better then why not take it. I just want to add my experience when I see threads discussing clomid while on trt since I have been trying it for almost 7 months now and can relay my experience for anyone who might be considering it.

This forum has been a great help to me by reading what other members have personally tried and how if affected them good or bad. I come here and read other peoples accounts a good bit before I try to add something to my regimen. Like right now I am studying desiccated thyroid in hopes of understanding what I am about to get into by taking it.

 

[leatherjacket99]

Exactly my point! I definitely feel something too on TRT + Clomid, even though it doesn’t affect anything on my labs. I was positive it wasn’t a placebo now I am reassured.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Correct that clomid (or any SERM) is typically not effective at raising LH/FSH for most men on *adequate* TRT doses. However, still can have an impact on SHBG and also the interactions with E2 receptors (agonist and antagonist) doesn’t show on blood work, but certainly CAN impact how one feels subjectively (sometimes better...sometimes not)

 

[leatherjacket99]

I just started to take 12.5 EOD while on test and hcg 3x a week

I started with Defy a few years ago now I guess and Dr Kistler (sp) started me on a clomid regimn .25 eod. I reacted very well to it but my t levels only went from 170 to 450 500. I felt great the first three or four months but it never got over the hump or at least never felt like I did as far as feeling great goes. I moved up to 50 eod and only had a slight bump in t less than 100 points.

So I decided to use t and hcg along with anastrozole and see how I did. It was a process but dr saya got me along nicely and now I inject 3x a week .28 test and .35 hcg with .15 anastrozole and feel pretty good. I think I could feel better but who doesnt. Last consult a few weeks ago I asked about adding clomid since I had read about it in a thread here. He said he would try it and we could see how it works so I had labs pulled to see if it actually makes any difference in a few months time of adding 12.5 eod to my routine.

I will say that I liked the way clomid made me feel at first. I guess since I had such low levels for god knows how many years. I was 44 when I was tested for low t the first time and started with defy maybe 8 months later. Am now 46. My t runs 8-9 now on average. I have low sbhg and that is what I am hoping adding clomid might bump up a little. I figure it wont hurt to try and as long as I watch the labs I will know if its working or not. I am about two weeks in to 12.5 on the days i inject so 3x a week.

I just got the labs back from before I started adding the clomid I will post below
View attachment 4843
https://postimg.org/image/wfpoolx5h/

I tolerated clomid very well even at 50 eod so it wont hurt to try 12.5 3x a week to see if it makes me feel any better. And it wont hurt to compare the labs before and after to see if there is any difference either.

I am all about feeling as good as I can and how do you know what works until you actually try it. I trust dr saya implicitly and I asked him about it. He agreed to give it a try with him watching my labs and seeing how I felt. If it does work and I do feel better then great if not then I stop taking clomid. No big deal. I for one am very interested to see how it works out.

———————————————————————-——
I feel the struggle. I am low SHBG also, as I mentioned. These are my labs with 50mg EOD of testosterone cypionate and 12.5 mg of clomid on the day of my injections. I must say I feel pretty good. Energy could be better, but everything else seems to be online. Wish I could be a patient of Dr. Saya’s as well, but i have pretty good insurance and they don’t accept insurance from what I remember. Keep us in the loop with updates!


I

 

[Imazephed]

I have fairly good insurance also and went to several urologist then an endo that didn't seem to know how to treat me. I quickly decided that I would just pay out my pocket for a higher standard of care. I am not wealthy so any money I spend that I dont have to would be great to hold onto but its really not that much an expense. I feel like its well worth the money I come out of my pocket to be in dr saya's care. Would I rather have a local endo that is on par with dr saya where I incur no personal expense? Sure who wouldn't like to let insurance cover dr visits and all my meds. That said there is no such option where I live. So I just consider it an necessary expense and like I stated before it really isn't that much in all honesty. I feeel like I am coming out way ahead considering the level of care I receive. All my labs are covered by my insurance the only thing I pay are for my meds and phone consults. I have looked and most all my meds are on my insurance list of items they will pay for so I could probably get reimbursed if I wanted to go through the trouble of filing the paperwork.

It does kind of suck having low shbg. I think it really gets in the way of feeling the best one can from trt. I just wish I could feel like I did during the honeymoon period when I first started clomid and my levels initially rose from 150's to the 500's. Those first months I felt better than I had in 15 or more years. I dont feel bad now but not as good as I did then. I am content if this is as good as it gets but I wont stop trying to feel even better. I did have tons more energy before I stopped lifting and doing cardio every day but I have no one to blame for that but myself. I hope to alleviate my lack of physical activity soon enough. I will be really interested to see how high my shbg climbs after 3 or 4 months of proper diet and exercise. I will also continue on clomid eod since I believe that it makes me feel slightly better. To me since I get no sides its well worth it as long as I believe it helps.

 

[rkultra1]

New here, first time posting. Having read your posts to this thread I had to reply because I am in the EXACT SAME situation. I started TRT in 2014 on 400mg every two weeks, then to 200mg a week injections and felt like I'd been touched by the hand of Zeus. Absolutely crushing it at the gym, in my job, in life overall. For me it took 2 years before the "blah" factor set in. I had lost 125lbs with a clean paleo diet over the course of 10 months, stopped, put about 60 back on..etc same story as you.

I just signed up with Defy last week in hopes that with proper care I can get some of that monster level back. I truly felt like an unstoppable beast at anything I tackled, now I feel like my brain is swimming in fog, got some gyno going on, irritable, just feel like trash.

Labs are interesting though...

Sex Hormone Binding Glob 19 nmol/L13 - 71 nmol/L
Albumin 4.6 g/dL3.5 - 5.1 g/dL
Testosterone Total 858 ng/dL300 - 1,080 ng/dL
Testosterone Calc Free 21.7 ng/dL4.6 - 18.1 ng/dL
Testosterone Calc Bioav 475.8 ng/dL92.0 - 306.0 ng/dL
Estradiol (E2) 47.0 pg/mL0.0 - 40.0 pg/mL

Note. I wasn't taking my AI at the time of this lab. I over respond and crash out so I have to use it sparingly. .25/wk will bring me to 9 pg/ml.

I've also just switched to 13 units a day of test cyp, shallow delt injection. See if this does anything to get over the low SHBG.

I just don't know how this happened, going from feeling like the world was mine to feeling like getting out of bed is a chore.

I'm at a loss too.

Hoping for the best from Saya and Defy team.

It does kind of suck having low shbg. I think it really gets in the way of feeling the best one can from trt. I just wish I could feel like I did during the honeymoon period when I first started clomid and my levels initially rose from 150's to the 500's. Those first months I felt better than I had in 15 or more years.

 

[Imazephed]

I wont even pretend to have enough knowledge to comment on your situation. I lost around 155 pounds in 3 years after going paleo and starting TRT. I have put almost 65 back on in 5 months after stopping all weight training, cardio and abandoning the paleo diet for your typical fast food and garbage out a box with extra sides of bread followed by ice cream and cake. I feel like crap compared to when I was 220 and lifting 4 days a week. I still feel way better than I did when I was 370 and hadnt seen my toes in years before starting trt but I want to stay around 220 and get stronger. I never felt as good after the honeymoon period on clomid. I felt pretty good but not like you describe. I wish I could feel that good but with my low sbhg I dont think that is in the cards for me. That wont stop me from trying though.

I think Dr Saya will be a great help to you. Just remember it takes time to dial it in so try to be patient. Good luck

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

This topic is of particular relevance to me since I am going to be travelling soon without a practical way to take my HCG with me. I will take some leftover clomid along and combine it with my TRT to see what happens. I think a partial answer to this question may be in Dr. Saya's post early in the thread about the TRT dosage having a big impact. I use a very low dose of TRT and it seems to work better for me than higher doses so I will test out a low dose of Clomid along side it during my travels.

 

[ckoko13]

I will not claim to be an expert or doctor at this but I CAN give what DEFINETELY has worked for me and has been working for me in my 4+ years of being on TRT. I've seen many people say NO to Clomid and YES to hcg & I can say that FOR ME and what I am trying to PERSONALLY accomplish that I need BOTH Clomid AND HCG. I take 125 mgs of test cypionate once weekly OR 62.5 mgs TWICE a week which for me (this varies from person to person) has worked best for me in terms of libido/energy/mood etc..Now as far as keeping the testicles a normal size & to keep from shrinkage (which 7 months into TRT I had extreme testicle shrinkage) & I tried JUST Clomid and I did NOT experience ANY sign of my testicles coming back to normal size they were before. I then stopped JUST Clomid and did some bloodwork & after getting the OK from my doctor I then began HCG treatment while on BOTH test cypionate AND Clomid. In the very beginning of my HCG treatment the dosage was a quick "loading" phase as I called it because I went 7 days in a row of 500 IU's of HCG, then after that I would do 500 IU's the day BEFORE my test cypionate shot, and then another 500 IU's on the day of my test cypionate shot. Within 10-14 days my testicles ALMOST OVERNIGHT went from shrunken down to back to their completely normal size. NOW here is where FOR ME the Clomid dose of 50 mgs a week makes sense & has PROVED to work for me. There was awhile where I did JUST HCG and test together and yes my testicles came back to normal size BUT at this particular time in my life my wife and I were trying to conceive and it just wasn't working. So we both got checked and did some tests and it turned out that I was the problem & even though I had VERY HIGH LIBIDO did NOT mean that I had virility, I was actually quite sterile. This was where my doctor put me on the dose of 50 mgs a week of clomid and BOOM, 48 days into it and my wife was pregnant after 8 months of failure. She gave birth to a healthy baby girl. SOME might call that luck or whatever but then it was proven again when my wife & I decided we wanted 1 more child to complete our family. I was ONLY in HCG and test as we made this decision & AGAIN we went almost a full year of ME failing to get my wife pregnant. So...went to see our doctors, once again for the tests plus bloodwork & made sure we covered every aspect on each of our ends and I was out BACK on the 50 mgs of Clomid & 2 months into that I impregnated my wife again & we had a healthy baby boy. So if you are trying to stay fertile then the Clomid plus HCG along with the test treatment does work, but if you're not aiming to have anymore or any kids etc..then just stick with the HCG with the test cypionate and your balls WILL come back to you. I hope I was able to help without writing TOO long of a novel.

 

[Raaj]

Hi, I am Primary and my testicles are shrunken since birth and now producing little bit testosterone
Will it work for me as I am primary testicular failure and all classical low T symotoms
TT 378
Estradiol 38
Lh 9
Fsh 7
Testicle size right 2.9*1.5
Testicle size left 2.4*1.2
Testicular Volume is low 1 ml

 

[Vince]

Hi, I am Primary and my testicles are shrunken since birth and now producing little bit testosterone
Will it work for me as I am primary testicular failure and all classical low T symotoms
TT 378
Estradiol 38
Lh 9
Fsh 7
Testicle size right 2.9*1.5
Testicle size left 2.4*1.2
Testicular Volume is low 1 ml

I'm also primary and I like the effect of of HCG with my protocol. I inject 500 IU twice a week. Since your primary it shouldn't affect your estrogen levels much.

 

[Raaj]

Thanks. But my question will HCG monotherapy let's say for 3 months will restore my batteries ral testoreone levels to optimal and restore my Testicular Volume. Mean to say Natural restoration of TT to 1200 and estradiol to 21-30 range permanently?

 

[Vince]

Thanks. But my question will HCG monotherapy let's say for 3 months will restore my batteries ral testoreone levels to optimal and restore my Testicular Volume. Mean to say Natural restoration of TT to 1200 and estradiol to 21-30 range permanently?

It would never do that, it may bring it back to its old levels. But I doubt it.

 

[Huntsman]

No, not Clomid. You're already HPTA suppressed.

You need HCG to keep your testes alive.

Much on the site to learn about HCG...but you don't need Clomid when on TRT.

Now I am not a doctor but it only makes sense to me that Clomid would work whether you’re on TRT or not. Think about it if you’re trying to say that if you are on TRT then Clomid won’t work? If you say that then Clomid won’t work at all because your own body produces testosterone so there’s not much difference between TRT in your own bodies testosterone. As far as the brain is concerned just testosterone is testosterone so Clomid should would with either testosterone present. Like I said I’m not a doctor but this makes sense to me Clomid should work no matter what

 

[Raaj]

Hi but after stopping comid it again come back not sure it is not a permanent increase and also estradiol bounce back. Not sure what causes it bound back to previous levels May be a strogen rebounding making testied shrink or it raises your shbg. But I think it affects your hsbg levels for sure. And I think I am estrogen dominant now with low test and high estrogen ratio. Just clueless now how to start TRT and control estrogen without taking any other medicines like AI. Share your thoughts on the same

 

[D007Domo]

Let's keep this one alive...

34 year old male here. Been on TRT for approx 30 months.

Started clomid @ 25mg eod in mid June, alongside TRT of 165mg/week (M,W,F). One week in I noticed my balls were hanging lower pretty consistently, they also seemed slightly more inflated. My goal was fertility - 9 weeks in I got an analysis done and I was sterile. FSH/LH were <.02. At around the 6 week mark, I started to feel some slight negative effects. Mood, enthusiasm, focus - all lowered. Not zeroed out, but enough to notice the change. Around this time I also developed a pretty foul body odor and was sweating randomly like crazy (yes, I shower plenty lol). After my semen analysis, and considering these negative sides, I decided to taper down to 12.5mg EOD, then E3D, then finally dropped clomid completely. Personally, I do not have any data to backup the need for a taper, but it seemed wise to me considering my body was obviously being impacted by the drug.

For my purposes, clomid @ 25mg EOD with TRT was a failure. Looking through my log, it seems obvious that clomid was impacting my body's chemistry and some of the things I was experiencing/not experiencing. Unfortunately, most of them were negative. The only upside was balls hanging lower and possibly a big bigger. Not worth it in my case.

Good luck to everyone!

 

[anabrolichk]

Let's keep this one alive...

34 year old male here. Been on TRT for approx 30 months.

Started clomid @ 25mg eod in mid June, alongside TRT of 165mg/week (M,W,F). One week in I noticed my balls were hanging lower pretty consistently, they also seemed slightly more inflated. My goal was fertility - 9 weeks in I got an analysis done and I was sterile. FSH/LH were <.02. At around the 6 week mark, I started to feel some slight negative effects. Mood, enthusiasm, focus - all lowered. Not zeroed out, but enough to notice the change. Around this time I also developed a pretty foul body odor and was sweating randomly like crazy (yes, I shower plenty lol). After my semen analysis, and considering these negative sides, I decided to taper down to 12.5mg EOD, then E3D, then finally dropped clomid completely. Personally, I do not have any data to backup the need for a taper, but it seemed wise to me considering my body was obviously being impacted by the drug.

For my purposes, clomid @ 25mg EOD with TRT was a failure. Looking through my log, it seems obvious that clomid was impacting my body's chemistry and some of the things I was experiencing/not experiencing. Unfortunately, most of them were negative. The only upside was balls hanging lower and possibly a big bigger. Not worth it in my case.

Good luck to everyone!

Wonder what your levels were like on that combo...I'm using 12.5mg of clomiphene a day and a single 40mg capsule of Andriol. Seems to be keeping my balls full and my semen looks normal, but my testosterone levels feel much higher. Seems to be a winning combo for me!

I decided to try the combo based on this study:

The combination of testosterone undecanoate with tamoxifen citrate enhances the effects of each agent given independently on seminal parameters in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia - PubMed

These results indicate that the combination of tamoxifen citrate with T undecanoate not only improves significantly important seminal parameters but also compares favorably with the single treatments used. Therefore, this combination deserves a place as a first line of treatment in idiopathic...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

25mg of clomiphene gave me a persistent headache, so I dialed back to 12.5mg a day. It really seems to be working very well. It's likely there's an ideal ratio of clomiphene : testosterone for each individual.

 

[Cataceous]

Clomid blocks E2 at the hypothalamus/pituitary level. The brain goes "holy crap, I have no E2, that means I have no T", and so it secretes LH/FSH to stimulate the testicles to produce more T. As long as a man isn't primary and he creating ample LH/FSH from the clomid stimulation, his T (and resulting E2) will rise. BUT the brain still doesn't "see" the E2 because the clomid continues to block it, so the body keeps stimulating with LH/FSH.

If you inject exogenous T, the brain goes "ok, we have plenty of T, no need to make our own" and shuts down LH/FSH, thus stopping the testicles from producing. Injected HCG is analogous to LH, so it stimuates the testicles a bit just to keep them alive and at their full size.

As long as we're keeping this thread alive... I think this explanation needs to be improved. It seems likely that exogenous testosterone can be more suppressive than endogenous. It was pointed out that some men can attain high serum testosterone with only Clomid, e.g. 900 ng/dL. But with TRT, if you get anywhere near this serum level you will likely have quite low levels of LH and FSH, even with Clomid use.

A possible reason that's omitted is that androgens also cause negative feedback at the hypothalamus. So while Clomid and enclomiphene block negative feedback from estrogens at both the pituitary and hypothalamus, they do not stop the suppressive behavior of testosterone. We're still left with the question: Why is exogenous testosterone—with conventional delivery—more suppressive than endogenous testosterone? We might speculate that the pulsatile delivery of LH—and testosterone—has something to do with it. In support of this hypothesis: endogenous testosterone is pulsed; constant testosterone is more suppressive than pulsed; Natesto's pulsatile nature allows continued HPTA function even with relatively high peaks in serum testosterone.