Tested my son for testosterone

[Deleted member 43589]

Medical and Nonmedical Uses of Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids

Recent trends in the use, abuse, and diversion of steroids for nonmedical purposes illustrate a growing problem that not only imposes health risks but presents ethical dilemmas as well. Concern over the known adverse effects, the limited research into the long-term effects, and the ethics of...

jamanetwork.com

See AMA recommendation 3 published 1990.

If only Congress has been kep out of medicine.

 

[Mastodont]

Thank you for posting @readalot. Oddly enough, the statement Sen. Joe Biden made about anabolic steroids being used more frequently that crack cocaine among high school athletes is laughable.

At least his son has tried to even that out, fuck the Biden parasite clan.

 

[tareload]

When comments are made like "Very disappointing parenting" I tend to get a little pissy. That pal is a personal attack. I am a big boy and have never had any problem defending myself or my family

Tested my son for testosterone

@readalot, I just suggested that my son watch Jordan Peterson. That was @FunkOdyssey, the ladder of accountability graphic just came to mind based on his comment. I was not directing it at you just something that may help stimulate discussion with your son. It always speaks to me when time...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Of course now we have come to this....

Plans & Pricing

Plans & PricingClick to expand/collapse our products, pricing, and plans.Please note: These prices are for reference only and could change at any time. For the most up to date pricing, please do contact us. We reserve the right to change pricing due to market fluctuations at anytime.Who We Are &

hormonesforme.com

So much for trying to stop it. See the Reason article I posted in another post as well.

By the way @readalot.....I read the whole Steroid Act posting you posted. I guess you figured I would. Not much I was not aware of because I was caught in the middle of all of this crap. My doctor at the time who was prescribing me steroids said "if this law passes, they can come get my medical license. I will quit working when the government tells me how to treat my patients." In fact, a few years later they government did take his license and he retired. What a loss for everyone. Including the little East Texas town he had a practice in. He also closed his pharmacy.

 

[tareload]

Anabolic Steroids: A Case for Decriminalization - Ryan Schwantes

This article is one in a series of articles on Anabolic Steroids written by Ryan Schwantes and makes a case for the decriminalization of Anabolic Steroids.

www.ryanschwantes.com

Reasonable chronological summary of the feedback from federal agencies/AMA leading up to 1990 regardless of the opinion made by the author. Quite a read to go back through testimony and findings of DHHS, FDA, DEA, AMA at the time.

 

[tareload]

Thank you for posting @readalot. Oddly enough, the statement Sen. Joe Biden made about anabolic steroids being used more frequently that crack cocaine among high school athletes is laughable. All my time as a high school/college coach I saw NO kids that were using steroids. In fact, Texas spent $6 billion on this steroid witch hunt only to find 11 kids positive in the 16 years we wasted money. Most of those who tested positive, fought the test and were found to be a false positive. Testing for weed and alcohol might have been a much better bang for the money that was wasted.

As far as the public being outraged and concerned for professional sports, its only because the media harped on it for so many years. We go see professional athletes and expect high performance week after week. More home runs, harder tackles, faster spring times and higher jumps, yet when these guys and girls don't give the public what they want or get hurt, the public turns on them. Its kind of a no-win situation. Then the part about the ADA and I believe as well as the DEA not wanting to do this.....looks like no one listened.

Americans should have learned a lesson from Prohibition. When you take something that the majority of the people want. They will find a way to still do it. In the case of alcohol, the mafia found a way to supply alcohol and ran the clubs for people to drink. The mafia got rich, and violence was now a part of the alcohol business.

Recreational drugs went the same way. We have spent over a $trillion on the war on drugs and the problem is much worse, more deadly and the violence surrounding the supply of drugs is tremendous.

Anabolic steroids went the same direction. Doctors were threatened, athletes would not ask doctors for help and the problems remained and has most definitely grown. Soon organized crime and entire countries got involved in the importation of drugs. Along with the corruption, the violence has also entered the steroid business. Yet the witch hunt continues.

Thank you for taking the time to write this. Simply excellent. If the govt wanted harm reduction they sure didn't get it creating all this UGL business.

 

[tareload]

How Washington Lost the War on Muscle

Steroid users hustle to stay one rep ahead of the law.

reason.com

Until 1988, steroids could be purchased over the counter. Relatively cheaply, too, thanks to chemist Russell Marker's discovery in the 1940s that two types of wild yam indigenous to Mexico—barbasco and cabeza de negro—could be synthesized into sex hormones.

A few critics warned Congress against making steroids illegal. "The medical facts do not support scheduling," Edward Langston of the American Medical Association told a Senate committee in the spring of 1989. "First, anabolic steroids have an accepted use in the treatment of several medical conditions. Second, abuse of steroids does not lead to physical or psychological dependence."

The Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) also opposed adding anabolic steroids to the Controlled Substances Act. At a 1988 hearing, the DEA's Gene Haislip argued that steroids did not share the "principally psychoactive" quality of other scheduled drugs, and were mostly used "to develop muscles, to increase physical performance, and perhaps simply to look good and appear to be more attractive to the opposite sex." Haislip also didn't want to add to the DEA's workload. "We do, in fact, have our hands full with some other problems."

 

[tareload]

Russell Marker Creation of the Mexican Steroid Hormone Industry - Landmark - American Chemical Society

American Chemical Society: Chemistry for Life.

www.acs.org

When Marker went to Mexico City in January 1942, the U.S. Embassy advised him to leave immediately because of widespread anti-American sentiment fueled by World War II. Instead, Marker took a bus to Orizaba, changed to the local bus to Cordoba, and, on the way, recognized the stream described in the botany text. By the stream, he found a country store owned by Alberto Moreno, a native Mexican who did not speak English. Despite the language barrier, Moreno was enlisted to find some cabeza de negro. Although Marker had no plant-collecting permit, two large roots in bags soon were loaded on top of the bus to Orizaba. When Marker got there, the bags were gone, but he recovered the larger 50-pound root by bribing a local policeman.

Back at Penn State, Marker isolated diosgenin in satisfactory yield from part of the smuggled tuber. Because his research had been funded by Parke-Davis, Marker took the rest of his root to its laboratories in Detroit. There, he repeated his process in an attempt to persuade the company to commercialize it. However, Parke-Davis's president refused, because he believed chemical work could not be done in Mexico. Marker's efforts to interest other pharmaceutical houses also failed, and, by the fall of 1942, he was convinced the only path to success "was for me to do it myself."

Marker returned to Veracruz and arranged with Moreno to collect and dry about 10 tons of cabeza de negro. In Mexico City, he found a man with a small-scale extractor, who extracted the roots with alcohol and evaporated the extract to a syrup. Next, in return for a third of the product, Marker arranged with a New York friend, Norman Applezweig, to use his laboratory to convert the syrup to progesterone. Marker finished with three kilos valued at $80 per gram, then the largest lot of progesterone ever produced.

Russell_Earl_Marker

Russell Earl Marker Russell Earl Marker (March 12, 1902 – March 23, 1995) was an eccentric American chemist who invented the octane rating system when he

www.chemeurope.com

 

[Charliebizz]

@BigTex for what it’s worth. when i first read the title and first post I was like ,ehhhh. 475 I wouldn’t ever go on t at that level. But after you tell the full story and how desperate you are to fix the the kid. Fuck everyone else who’s trying to give you shit. Being a parent is the toughest job on the planet. And tons of men I know even really good dudes. Would have gave up on the kid already. I commend you 1000% for the time and effort your putting in. for Some reason society is ok with putting any one and I mean anyone. Even 10 year old kids on brain altering drugs. But then we gonna shit on a father for putting a 26 year old man on trt. Come on fellas.

 

[tareload]

we gonna shit

There is no "we" here.

Good post.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

@BigTex for what it’s worth. when i first read the title and first post I was like ,ehhhh. 475 I wouldn’t ever go on t at that level. But after you tell the full story and how desperate you are to fix the the kid. Fuck everyone else who’s trying to give you shit. Being a parent is the toughest job on the planet. And tons of men I know even really good dudes. Would have gave up on the kid already. I commend you 1000% for the time and effort your putting in. for Some reason society is ok with putting any one and I mean anyone. Even 10 year old kids on brain altering drugs. But then we gonna shit on a father for putting a 26 year old man on trt. Come on fellas.

I do appreciate your comments. I agree, when my wife and I saw this number we had a long talk about it and were hesitant. But when we were looking at the old norms, we realized this is probably not where he needs to be. Especially with the symptoms we are witnessing. He is much closer to the bottom than the top. Especially since he had previously been diagnosed as androgen deficient by a endocrinologist at 17. So we both decided to pull the trigger on this one and help him with what he came to us asking for. He knows well I have been on steroids all his life along wiht his mother. While I did get a little pissed at the cheap shots, we are the ones who have to deal with the consequences and like I said, I have been to enough funerals of my own relatives lately. I really have never cared what people think about me and have always been man enough to do as I wanted. Yea, it easy to give up on a kid. It rips your insides out hanging in there to help.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Anabolic Steroids: A Case for Decriminalization - Ryan Schwantes

This article is one in a series of articles on Anabolic Steroids written by Ryan Schwantes and makes a case for the decriminalization of Anabolic Steroids.

www.ryanschwantes.com

Reasonable chronological summary of the feedback from federal agencies/AMA leading up to 1990 regardless of the opinion made by the author. Quite a read to go back through testimony and findings of DHHS, FDA, DEA, AMA at the time.

This should make every American angry.

Dr. Yesalis once again gave an objective review, and explicitly recommended against scare tactics, saying, ” increased death, probability of death or morbidity could be taking place, but people apparently are not dropping like flies. And I think we have to be careful not to lose further credibility.”

All we have heard from Congress and the media is scare tactics. Almost like when I was in high school and government agencies came in and used these same tactics to get us not to try marijauna. All it did was make kid curious and create a distrust of government.

A guy I know well wrote this paper years back

Street C, Antonio J, Cudlipp D. Androgen use by athletes: a reevaluation of the health risks. Can J Appl Physiol. 1996 Dec;21(6):421-40. doi: 10.1139/h96-038. PMID: 8959310.

It has been estimated that 1 to 3 million male and female athletes in the United States have used androgens. Androgen use has been associated with liver dysfunction, altered blood lipids, infertility, musculotendinous injury, and psychological abnormalities. Although androgens have been available to athletes for over 50 years, there is little evidence to show that their use will cause any long-term detriment; furthermore, the use of moderate doses of androgens results in side effects that are largely benign and reversible. It is our contention that the incidence of serious health problems associated with the use of androgens by athletes has been overstated.

Androgen use by athletes: a reevaluation of the health risks - PubMed

It has been estimated that 1 to 3 million male and female athletes in the United States have used androgens. Androgen use has been associated with liver dysfunction, altered blood lipids, infertility, musculotendinous injury, and psychological abnormalities. Although androgens have been...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Russell Marker Creation of the Mexican Steroid Hormone Industry - Landmark - American Chemical Society

American Chemical Society: Chemistry for Life.

www.acs.org

View attachment 25243


When Marker went to Mexico City in January 1942, the U.S. Embassy advised him to leave immediately because of widespread anti-American sentiment fueled by World War II. Instead, Marker took a bus to Orizaba, changed to the local bus to Cordoba, and, on the way, recognized the stream described in the botany text. By the stream, he found a country store owned by Alberto Moreno, a native Mexican who did not speak English. Despite the language barrier, Moreno was enlisted to find some cabeza de negro. Although Marker had no plant-collecting permit, two large roots in bags soon were loaded on top of the bus to Orizaba. When Marker got there, the bags were gone, but he recovered the larger 50-pound root by bribing a local policeman.

Back at Penn State, Marker isolated diosgenin in satisfactory yield from part of the smuggled tuber. Because his research had been funded by Parke-Davis, Marker took the rest of his root to its laboratories in Detroit. There, he repeated his process in an attempt to persuade the company to commercialize it. However, Parke-Davis's president refused, because he believed chemical work could not be done in Mexico. Marker's efforts to interest other pharmaceutical houses also failed, and, by the fall of 1942, he was convinced the only path to success "was for me to do it myself."

Marker returned to Veracruz and arranged with Moreno to collect and dry about 10 tons of cabeza de negro. In Mexico City, he found a man with a small-scale extractor, who extracted the roots with alcohol and evaporated the extract to a syrup. Next, in return for a third of the product, Marker arranged with a New York friend, Norman Applezweig, to use his laboratory to convert the syrup to progesterone. Marker finished with three kilos valued at $80 per gram, then the largest lot of progesterone ever produced.

Russell_Earl_Marker

Russell Earl Marker Russell Earl Marker (March 12, 1902 – March 23, 1995) was an eccentric American chemist who invented the octane rating system when he

www.chemeurope.com

Interestingly enough in the late 90's and early 2000's Mexcican pharma that made anabolic steroids was the biggest supplier in the USA. Brovel was one of the largest suppliers of testosterone enanthate. It was almost over night it all went away.

"In late 2005 the Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force targeted eight major Mexican based steroid manufacturing companies, their owners, and their trafficking associates. Operation Gear Grinder was a 21 month investigation that led to the arrest of Albert Saltiel-Cohen, owner of three of the world’s largest anabolic steroid manufacturers. In addition to the Saltiel-Cohen arrest, the DEA arrested four steroid trafficking suspects in the U.S., and over 2,000 U.S. customers of the steroid labs were identified."

So Mexico is out, enters China.

The Failed War on Anabolic Steroids – IronMag Bodybuilding & Fitness Blog

www.ironmagazine.com

 

[TLawyer]

I do appreciate your comments. I agree, when my wife and I saw this number we had a long talk about it and were hesitant. But when we were looking at the old norms, we realized this is probably not where he needs to be. Especially with the symptoms we are witnessing. He is much closer to the bottom than the top. Especially since he had previously been diagnosed as androgen deficient by a endocrinologist at 17. So we both decided to pull the trigger on this one and help him with what he came to us asking for. He knows well I have been on steroids all his life along wiht his mother. While I did get a little pissed at the cheap shots, we are the ones who have to deal with the consequences and like I said, I have been to enough funerals of my own relatives lately. I really have never cared what people think about me and have always been man enough to do as I wanted. Yea, it easy to give up on a kid. It rips your insides out hanging in there to help.

There weren't any cheap shots. If everyone had judged you as making a good decision and said "oh, you're a great parent" for recommending that he start testosterone under these circumstances, then you would have been perfectly fine with being "judged." You don't mind being judged, you just want to be judged in a favorable light. And that's clearly what you were looking for with your post, just validiation of your decision. You say that you appreciate the comments that conform to what you think, but you seemingly believe that anyone who doesn't is just making personal attacks and doesn't know what they're talking about.

Lots of people didn't think what you recommended your son do was a wise decision and laid the reasons out in a pretty comprehensive way (inadequate blood tests, different TRT options like Natesto weren't considered, short-term Enclomiphene, lifestyle changes, etc.), so your feelings were hurt and you didn't get the validation you wanted. Your primary justification for the recommendation that you made is that you've been juicing for 40 years. Do you think that your son would have been interested in trying Natesto, a nasal testosterone gel that may have given him the extra boost in levels that he needs without shutting him down? That wasn't a treatment option 40 years ago, but it is now, and it has worked for some, particularly those who are borderline and young.

You say that you don't care what people think about you, yet I'm reading a bunch of your complaints about how everyone was so mean to you, along with rants about how doctors are idiots (yet, you accept the diagnosis of the endo when your son was 17 as one of the justifications for what you did, as well as your current doctor) and how awful the medical system is in the U.S. (while as the same time seemingly benefiting from Medicare). I hope that your son improves, but it's a very tough sell to me that starting him on testosterone and HCG in the manner that you did was the right thing to do, and I'd hate for someone to come on here with no experience in the TRT world and read that as an appropriate approach, which is the reason why I responded to it. Bottomline, your son is 26-years-old and a grown man. He should be doing his own research from reputable sources (tell him about Excel Male!) and looking at this from all angles.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

I've tried the damn nasal spray/gel and the creams and pumps....they suck. My wife won't even use those. My son tells me he doesn't want to take Enclomiphene or any other pills. I am not going to have him try a hand full of different drugs to see what works when we are ALL seeing the results we were hoping for. Oh, yea anything but that evil TRT, especially using an insulin syringe. So cut the shit, I am not interested in your advice. In my world you are clueless. I honestly could give a shit if you are sold on anything I do or say. Just for your information, I paid in to Medicare for a whole lot of years and working to EARN Medicare. Benefiting, I earned it. Yea unlike you I am smart enough to determine when a doctor is not worth a damn. Equally I can recognize one that is.

Again, you read what suites your mind and post misrepresentations of what was said. It apprears you just want to be an asshole. Most people here were very professional and many supportive. There were only THREE of you that were acting like assholes and YOU still are. Go check the link below that Readalot was nice enough to put up.

Tested my son for testosterone

@readalot, I just suggested that my son watch Jordan Peterson. That was @FunkOdyssey, the ladder of accountability graphic just came to mind based on his comment. I was not directing it at you just something that may help stimulate discussion with your son. It always speaks to me when time...

www.excelmale.com

 

[TLawyer]

I've tried the damn nasal spray/gel and the creams and pumps....they suck. My wife won't even use those.

Natesto (or Empower's version) is completely different than the cream you'd put on your skin in lieu of injections. I would have your son read up on it. The key is that what might not work for you might actually work him. We're all different. A 26-year-old may have success with Natesto, whereas you may have been much older when you tried it and didn't have success. It was approved only about 8 years ago, so you would have been substantially older when you tried it, assuming that you actually did. Jatenzo may have also been an option to pursue. Are you familiar with it? Knowledge is power.

My son tells me he doesn't want to take Enclomiphene or any other pills.

Why not? Did you educate him on the possible benefits? You specifically talked to him about Enclomiphene? A knowlgeable doctor could have done that for him, or he could have researched it on this site. He also could have discussed additional options rather than the cookie cutter approach that you gave him.

I am not going to have him try a hand full of different drugs to see what works when we are ALL seeing the results we were hoping for. Oh, yea anything but that evil TRT, especially using an insulin syringe.

Many of us are on this site because we aren't seeing the results that we were hoping for. When you say something like "we are ALL seeing the results we were hoping for," that's just not true. Some have had negative results from TRT and come off of it. I don't think anyone is calling TRT evil - I am using it myself. I don't believe that we're concerned about the size of the syringe as much as what's actually inside the syringe.

So cut the shit, I am not interested in your advice. In my world you are clueless. I honestly could give a shit if you are sold on anything I do or say.

Open forum here. If you don't want people to comment, don't post stories on a public forum about giving your son testosterone. There are some who will applaud your approach, there are some who won't. I'm in the latter camp.

Just for your information, I paid in to Medicare for a whole lot of years and working to EARN Medicare. Benefiting, I earned it.

That's great news. I am glad that the system has worked out for you as it was intended. I hope that you are appreciative of what you have compared to many third world countries.

Yea unlike you I am smart enough to determine when a doctor is not worth a damn. Equally I can recognize one that is.

Please don't levy those cutting personal attacks against me. I'm too delicate. Do you know the meaning of the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black?"

Again, you read what suites your mind and post misrepresentations of what was said. It apprears you just want to be an asshole.

Everyone has the ability to go back and read what you wrote. They don't need to rely on my representation of it. They can make their own judgments as to whether you've given solid advice. If I was really trying to be an "asshole," I would have written that you're not "smart enough" like you wrote above about me, or call you names like you have here about me.

Most people here were very professional and many supportive.

What's your definition of "professional?" If I question your judgment on dispensing medical advice to your son based on your years of anabolic steroid use, that isn't unprofessional. My concern is that he doesn't harm himself further. If by "supportive" you mean blowing smoke up your ass and telling you how great you are for reasons that aren't readily apparent to me, then yes, I haven't been supportive of you.

There were only THREE of you that were acting like assholes and YOU still are. Go check the link below that Readalot was nice enough to put up.

The name calling would qualify as another example of personal attacks. Again, disagreeing with you doesn't mean we're assholes.

Tested my son for testosterone

@readalot, I just suggested that my son watch Jordan Peterson. That was @FunkOdyssey, the ladder of accountability graphic just came to mind based on his comment. I was not directing it at you just something that may help stimulate discussion with your son. It always speaks to me when time...

www.excelmale.com

Your son is 26-years-old, so at this point I wouldn't call it "poor parenting." He's a grown man and needs to make his own decision. I'd just call it "misguided and poor advice" you gave him.

 

[Charliebizz]

There weren't any cheap shots. If everyone had judged you as making a good decision and said "oh, you're a great parent" for recommending that he start testosterone under these circumstances, then you would have been perfectly fine with being "judged." You don't mind being judged, you just want to be judged in a favorable light. And that's clearly what you were looking for with your post, just validiation of your decision. You say that you appreciate the comments that conform to what you think, but you seemingly

Natesto (or Empower's version) is completely different than the cream you'd put on your skin in lieu of injections. I would have your son read up on it. The key is that what might not work for you might actually work him. We're all different. A 26-year-old may have success with Natesto, whereas you may have been much older when you tried it and didn't have success. It was approved only about 8 years ago, so you would have been substantially older when you tried it, assuming that you actually did. Jatenzo may have also been an option to pursue. Are you familiar with it? Knowledge is power.



Why not? Did you educate him on the possible benefits? You specifically talked to him about Enclomiphene? A knowlgeable doctor could have done that for him, or he could have researched it on this site. He also could have discussed additional options rather than the cookie cutter approach that you gave him.



Many of us are on this site because we aren't seeing the results that we were hoping for. When you say something like "we are ALL seeing the results we were hoping for," that's just not true. Some have had negative results from TRT and come off of it. I don't think anyone is calling TRT evil - I am using it myself. I don't believe that we're concerned about the size of the syringe as much as what's actually inside the syringe.


Open forum here. If you don't want people to comment, don't post stories on a public forum about giving your son testosterone. There are some who will applaud your approach, there are some who won't. I'm in the latter camp.



That's great news. I am glad that the system has worked out for you as it was intended. I hope that you are appreciative of what you have compared to many third world countries.



Please don't levy those cutting personal attacks against me. I'm too delicate. Do you know the meaning of the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black?"



Everyone has the ability to go back and read what you wrote. They don't need to rely on my representation of it. They can make their own judgments as to whether you've given solid advice. If I was really trying to be an "asshole," I would have written that you're not "smart enough" like you wrote above about me, or call you names like you have here about me.



What's your definition of "professional?" If I question your judgment on dispensing medical advice to your son based on your years of anabolic steroid use, that isn't unprofessional. My concern is that he doesn't harm himself further. If by "supportive" you mean blowing smoke up your ass and telling you how great you are for reasons that aren't readily apparent to me, then yes, I haven't been supportive of you.



The name calling would qualify as another example of personal attacks. Again, disagreeing with you doesn't mean we're assholes.



Your son is 26-years-old, so at this point I wouldn't call it "poor parenting." He's a grown man and needs to make his own decision. I'd just call it "misguided and poor advice" you gave him.

Does anyone really think cramming gel up your nose 3 times a day is actually a viable long term option for trt ?

 

[tareload]

Does anyone really think cramming gel up your nose 3 times a day is actually a viable long term option for trt ?

I have 3 boxes and I never got the bottle out of the box. Just couldn't bring my self to do it and I like to experiment (at least I thought I did). Maybe if it truly was the only option I would trial it. With troches available I just don't see the point.

 

[Charliebizz]

I have 3 boxes and I never got the bottle out of the box. Just couldn't bring my self to do it and I like to experiment (at least I thought I did). Maybe if it truly was the only option I would trial it. With troches available I just don't see the point.

Exactly. In theory it sounds great. the Possibility of keeping hpta fuctiin intact while using trt. Nice variation through the day. But comes down to compliance. I don’t think a person on the planet can make that type of life long commitment lol.

 

[TLawyer]

Exactly. In theory it sounds great. the Possibility of keeping hpta fuctiin intact while using trt. Nice variation through the day. But comes down to compliance. I don’t think a person on the planet can make that type of life long commitment lol.

Life-long, no. If you’re trying to gauge how you’d feel with higher testosterone levels to determine whether injections or other long-term treatment would be a good option, or if you need higher levels until you can address another reason why your natural production is suffering, I think there is a place for it in those situations.