T-Cream on scrotum, what makes it work so good for low shbg men?

[Cooper]

When using cream does anyone have transference issues? I am currently on injections but had better results with cream but switched to injections because I became paranoid about transference.

 

[bixt]

but had better results with cream

Share with us the details please! Better how? Sleep? Libido? Any crash in the evening? etc

 

[Fortunate]

your not the first guy I talked to that tried legit dht with injections and couldn’t replicate the cream.

I too had more positives with cream. Way better libido and erections. Problem with me is I might go to high and start getting fatigued.

Been thinking about DHT. It is clearly documented that cream leads to very high DHT levels, which has various benefits. On the other hand, many have voiced concerns about such supraphysiologic levels of DHT.

Is the concern more theoretical and/or due to a general lack of data regarding long-term elevated DHT levels? Or, is there actual data suggesting that these supraphysiologic levels are associated with negative health repercussions?

@Cataceous?

 

[Fortunate]

DHT Overview

It is an overview article and is a bit old, as it was publishing 2017, but appears to be interesting.

 

[Fortunate]

For TLDR, see bottom of post.

There are a lot of cream threads out there, but this appears to be the currently most active one. So, for anyone interested, I'll post my most recent cream experience.

I had been on Xyosted 50mg, roughly twice a week for five weeks. For a variety of reasons, I decided to give cream another trial. Last time I was on cream, I had other variables at play (was on hCG, for some of it, played with DHEA and T3). I have 15% standard base cream (37.5mg per click). It happens to be about 1.5 years old (sitting on a shelf).

Around the time when my next injection was due, I started cream instead. In fact, it was on a day I was feeling run down and tired, so I did a single click to the shoulder around 3PM. Within hours, my energy, mental clarity and mood was significantly better. Wow. However, that night, I had very light sleep, woke up a ton and woke up way too early. Basically, insomnia. Maybe I just need to dose in the morning to alleviate this?

For two subsequent days, I did one click to scrotum and one click to shoulder in the AM. On the first day, I felt pretty good, but had some mild anxiety and mild tachycardia. That improved, but was still present on the second day. Both days, I had pretty good mental clarity and energy with a decent mood. On evening of second day of this, had some more challenges with sleep.

HOWEVER, I have a confounding variable (with a wink in @FunkOdyssey's direction), I also starting weaning off a beta blocker right before I started the cream trial. Beta blockers are known to be a drag on energy, mood and libido. It is possible the positive affects were simply due to being off the beta blocker. It is also possible that the mild anxiety and tachycardia were due to beta blocker withdrawal.

As a mini experiment, I decided to hold the cream and do 1-2 Xyosted injections to see if I have a similar bump in energy, mental clarity and mood (now that I am off the beta blocker). Started that today and will report back. That said, I am pretty darn encouraged about my latest cream trial and won't hesitate to go back and do a longer trial. If I do, I will probably do two clicks to the shoulder once a day.

My potential concern about cream long term: what are the repercussions of long term DHT elevation? Will hormone levels gradually rise until a steady state is reached, at which point I will be supraphysiologic (this is what I suspect happened last time I was on cream, but there were other variables, too)? Is dose titration kinda hard because of variables that can affect absorption, etc.?

TLDR:

• Cream works
• It works really quickly
• It appears to work even up to 1.5 years after being compounded and sitting on a shelf
• Beta blockers are great drugs and do what they are supposed to do really well, but can be nasty on certain aspects of the subjective human experience (more on that later)

 

[Hyrulewarrior1978]

For TLDR, see bottom of post.

There are a lot of cream threads out there, but this appears to be the currently most active one. So, for anyone interested, I'll post my most recent cream experience.

I had been on Xyosted 50mg, roughly twice a week for five weeks. For a variety of reasons, I decided to give cream another trial. Last time I was on cream, I had other variables at play (was on hCG, for some of it, played with DHEA and T3). I have 15% standard base cream (37.5mg per click). It happens to be about 1.5 years old (sitting on a shelf).

Around the time when my next injection was due, I started cream instead. In fact, it was on a day I was feeling run down and tired, so I did a single click to the shoulder around 3PM. Within hours, my energy, mental clarity and mood was significantly better. Wow. However, that night, I had very light sleep, woke up a ton and woke up way too early. Basically, insomnia. Maybe I just need to dose in the morning to alleviate this?

For two subsequent days, I did one click to scrotum and one click to shoulder in the AM. On the first day, I felt pretty good, but had some mild anxiety and mild tachycardia. That improved, but was still present on the second day. Both days, I had pretty good mental clarity and energy with a decent mood. On evening of second day of this, had some more challenges with sleep.

HOWEVER, I have a confounding variable (with a wink in @FunkOdyssey's direction), I also starting weaning off a beta blocker right before I started the cream trial. Beta blockers are known to be a drag on energy, mood and libido. It is possible the positive affects were simply due to being off the beta blocker. It is also possible that the mild anxiety and tachycardia were due to beta blocker withdrawal.

As a mini experiment, I decided to hold the cream and do 1-2 Xyosted injections to see if I have a similar bump in energy, mental clarity and mood (now that I am off the beta blocker). Started that today and will report back. That said, I am pretty darn encouraged about my latest cream trial and won't hesitate to go back and do a longer trial. If I do, I will probably do two clicks to the shoulder once a day.

My potential concern about cream long term: what are the repercussions of long term DHT elevation? Will hormone levels gradually rise until a steady state is reached, at which point I will be supraphysiologic (this is what I suspect happened last time I was on cream, but there were other variables, too)? Is dose titration kinda hard because of variables that can affect absorption, etc.?

TLDR:

• Cream works
• It works really quickly
• It appears to work even up to 1.5 years after being compounded and sitting on a shelf
• Beta blockers are great drugs and do what they are supposed to do really well, but can be nasty on certain aspects of the subjective human experience (more on that later)

You are all over the place and need to just use one method and stick to it. Seriously

 

[Fortunate]

You are all over the place and need to just use one method and stick to it. Seriously

I appreciate the input. I am not going to disagree. On the other hand, after close to six weeks on the prior protocol, I felt that the upside to downside ratio was suboptimal and decided to try something else.

 

[Charliebizz]

I appreciate the input. I am not going to disagree. On the other hand, after close to six weeks on the prior protocol, I felt that the upside to downside ratio was suboptimal and decided to try something else.

according to most guys doing well on cream. You have to find the dose that works for you on scrotum only. I think the benefits we are now seeing with the cream to scrotum is the different absorption rate and faster peak and trough, as well as the dht boost. I can sympathize with you on how many things you tried and change. I’ve been in the same boat for a while. But frankly I’m sick of it and I’m finally committed to seeing the cream through. We have to stop over analyzing every symptom. Every time we get tired ,moody ,how are libido is every minute. It’s just not healthy. I know ssri are frowned upon by most. But I am going back on a low dose. I was much better on trt with the ssri. It helps with my Extreme overthinking. I know for me I need to see cream through for a few months so I can at least write it off once and for all. Or best case it works great and can go in with my life. That said, I hate the 2 x a day application so going to just do 1a.m dose. So far 2 clicks and I’m feeling decent.

 

[Cataceous]

Been thinking about DHT. It is clearly documented that cream leads to very high DHT levels, which has various benefits. On the other hand, many have voiced concerns about such supraphysiologic levels of DHT.

Is the concern more theoretical and/or due to a general lack of data regarding long-term elevated DHT levels? Or, is there actual data suggesting that these supraphysiologic levels are associated with negative health repercussions?

@Cataceous?

I doubt there are controlled studies on the long-term effects of high DHT. This leaves the concerns as largely theoretical. In general there are negative correlations with high and low levels of most hormones, although these do not establish causality. In the specific case of DHT it might be argued that high levels could skew relative androgenic and estrogenic activity in various tissues. DHT is much more potent than testosterone in some locations, yet is deactivated in others. It's also unclear what effect high levels of DHT have on its neurosteroid metabolites and their functions. DHT is known to be anti-estrogenic, and we do see some anecdotal reports of guys experiencing low-estrogen-type symptoms with transdermal testosterone. Given all the unknowns I'd say that it would be hard to justify running really high levels unless the results are nothing short of spectacular.

 

[Fortunate]

I doubt there are controlled studies on the long-term effects of high DHT. This leaves the concerns as largely theoretical. In general there are negative correlations with high and low levels of most hormones, although these do not establish causality. In the specific case of DHT it might be argued that high levels could skew relative androgenic and estrogenic activity in various tissues. DHT is much more potent than testosterone in some locations, yet is deactivated in others. It's also unclear what effect high levels of DHT have on its neurosteroid metabolites and their functions. DHT is known to be anti-estrogenic, and we do see some anecdotal reports of guys experiencing low-estrogen-type symptoms with transdermal testosterone. Given all the unknowns I'd say that it would be hard to justify running really high levels unless the results are nothing short of spectacular.

I hear you. If you get a moment, take a look at the article I posted above. It's a 2017 overview on supraphysiologic levels of DHT. I skimmed most of it and found it interesting and somewhat useful. I haven't read it in enough detail to be able to criticize the conclusions. Most of the articles they reference have short term follow up (up to two years, etc). I need to look closer at the referenced articles to understand how much power the statistics have (how many subjects were in study groups, etc). That said, the overall message is that you can run high DHT levels without too much worry.

 

[madman]

I hear you. If you get a moment, take a look at the article I posted above. It's a 2017 overview on supraphysiologic levels of DHT. I skimmed most of it and found it interesting and somewhat useful. I haven't read it in enough detail to be able to criticize the conclusions. Most of the articles they reference have short term follow up (up to two years, etc). I need to look closer at the referenced articles to understand how much power the statistics have (how many subjects were in study groups, etc). That said, the overall message is that you can run high DHT levels without too much worry.

Use the search function.

The studies have already been posted up here.


post#4

Issues on trt, ED and high DHT

New here and looking for some advice. Desperate for some help. I'm having major ED issues. I can get it hard some days but then other days can not. If I can get it hard it requires constant stimulation or it goes soft instantly. There also seems to be low sensitivity down there as well...

www.excelmale.com

*The modest increases observed in serum DHT and in the DHT/T ratio observed after TRT are unlikely to be a cause of clinical concern, particularly when viewed in the context of changes observed in these parameters for currently marketed T replacement products and those under development for which DHT data are available. There is no sound current clinical evidence to indicate that elevated DHT concentrations (either short-lived peaks or sustained supraphysiological levels) are associated with risk beyond that known for androgens (most notably, T), including adverse effects on the prostate

Is Dihydrotestosterone DHT Good or Bad for Men?

In this issue of Endocrine Reviews, Swerdloff et al. (5) review the human and animal data regarding the physiological and clinical implications of elevated blood concentrations of DHT in men and women. All exogenous testosterone formulations increase serum DHT concentrations above...

www.excelmale.com

post#4

Beware of DHT

I Started low dose TRT in 2016 for mainly libido/erection issues but also had mood and concentration problems. Wasn't much successful and cortisol went too low so quit after 8 or 9 months. Then tried HCG which worked for about 2 months but then E got too high and it stopped working at all. From...

www.excelmale.com

*In summary, we have reviewed the evidence that slightly to moderately elevated DHT concentrations or an elevated DHT/T ratio during androgen therapy (most notably, TRT) are unlikely to pose either a higher risk or a unique risk compared with T. We acknowledge that the available published data are limited by the lack of large, well-controlled studies of the long duration that are sufficiently powered to expose subtle safety signals. Nonetheless, the preponderance of available clinical data leads to the conclusion that modest elevations in circulating levels of DHT in response to androgen therapy should not be of concern in clinical practice

 

[madman]

I hear you. If you get a moment, take a look at the article I posted above. It's a 2017 overview on supraphysiologic levels of DHT. I skimmed most of it and found it interesting and somewhat useful. I haven't read it in enough detail to be able to criticize the conclusions. Most of the articles they reference have short term follow up (up to two years, etc). I need to look closer at the referenced articles to understand how much power the statistics have (how many subjects were in study groups, etc). That said, the overall message is that you can run high DHT levels without too much worry.

If you are going to fret over such then avoid the scrotal route or better yet stick to injections!

 

[Fortunate]

Use the search function.

The studies have already been posted up here.


post#4

Issues on trt, ED and high DHT

New here and looking for some advice. Desperate for some help. I'm having major ED issues. I can get it hard some days but then other days can not. If I can get it hard it requires constant stimulation or it goes soft instantly. There also seems to be low sensitivity down there as well...

www.excelmale.com

*The modest increases observed in serum DHT and in the DHT/T ratio observed after TRT are unlikely to be a cause of clinical concern, particularly when viewed in the context of changes observed in these parameters for currently marketed T replacement products and those under development for which DHT data are available. There is no sound current clinical evidence to indicate that elevated DHT concentrations (either short-lived peaks or sustained supraphysiological levels) are associated with risk beyond that known for androgens (most notably, T), including adverse effects on the prostate

Is Dihydrotestosterone DHT Good or Bad for Men?

In this issue of Endocrine Reviews, Swerdloff et al. (5) review the human and animal data regarding the physiological and clinical implications of elevated blood concentrations of DHT in men and women. All exogenous testosterone formulations increase serum DHT concentrations above...

www.excelmale.com

post#4

Beware of DHT

I Started low dose TRT in 2016 for mainly libido/erection issues but also had mood and concentration problems. Wasn't much successful and cortisol went too low so quit after 8 or 9 months. Then tried HCG which worked for about 2 months but then E got too high and it stopped working at all. From...

www.excelmale.com

*In summary, we have reviewed the evidence that slightly to moderately elevated DHT concentrations or an elevated DHT/T ratio during androgen therapy (most notably, TRT) are unlikely to pose either a higher risk or a unique risk compared with T. We acknowledge that the available published data are limited by the lack of large, well-controlled studies of the long duration that are sufficiently powered to expose subtle safety signals. Nonetheless, the preponderance of available clinical data leads to the conclusion that modest elevations in circulating levels of DHT in response to androgen therapy should not be of concern in clinical practice

As usual, strong work @madman. I need to get better at using the advanced search features.

Meanwhile, it may be interesting to dig into the articles they reference to see how good the conclusions are.

Any volunteers...?

 

[Cataceous]

The modest increases observed in serum DHT and in the DHT/T ratio observed after TRT are unlikely to be a cause of clinical concern, particularly when viewed in the context of changes observed in these parameters for currently marketed T replacement products and those under development for which DHT data are available. There is no sound current clinical evidence to indicate that elevated DHT concentrations (either short-lived peaks or sustained supraphysiological levels) are associated with risk beyond that known for androgens (most notably, T)
...

Surely their idea of "modest" doesn't encompass the 400+ ng/dL of DHT we sometimes see? Even if the risk is only from generic androgenicity then you'd still need to delve into the potency relative to testosterone, the additive effect with testosterone, and also the integrated exposure. @readalot has investigated the latter. It's possible that less extreme levels are problematic if the exposure is long enough.

 

[Fortunate]

Surely their idea of "modest" doesn't encompass the 400+ ng/dL of DHT we sometimes see? Even if the risk is only from generic androgenicity then you'd still need to delve into the potency relative to testosterone, the additive effect with testosterone, and also the integrated exposure. @readalot has investigated the latter. It's possible that less extreme levels are problematic if the exposure is long enough.

I hear you. One of their take-home points was essentially that circulating DHT does not necessarily reflect intra-tissue DHT (at least in the prostate), as the prostate tissue has cellular mechanisms to self regulate DHT concentrations.

I am not sure how valid the conclusions are. And, the concept does not necessarily apply to other tissues, making the concerns stated around here valid.

 

[tareload]

Surely their idea of "modest" doesn't encompass the 400+ ng/dL of DHT we sometimes see? Even if the risk is only from generic androgenicity then you'd still need to delve into the potency relative to testosterone, the additive effect with testosterone, and also the integrated exposure. @readalot has investigated the latter. It's possible that less extreme levels are problematic if the exposure is long enough.

Never got any response from our good buddy or any takers...

Trans scrotal testosterone cream application is a game changer

I read the article when originally published years ago. If you find a long term study of men with DHT levels >400ng/dL please post it here for everyone’s benefit. I haven’t found any.

www.excelmale.com

 

[Hyrulewarrior1978]

Elevated dht with creams is just as experimental as men on long-term testosterone replacement through any method. In other words why bother worrying about it when you’ve already taken the risk of being committed to long-term treatment with exogenous testosterone?

 

[Cataceous]

Elevated dht with creams is just as experimental as men on long-term testosterone replacement through any method. In other words why bother worrying about it when you’ve already taken the risk of being committed to long-term treatment with exogenous testosterone?

The distinction is in the word "elevated". TRT is supposed to be about restoring testosterone to physiological levels. It's true that TRT is still experimental to an extent, and it's possible there are undiscovered risks in long-term treatment, e.g. linked to suppression of GnRH. However, raising hormone levels above what's physiological must be construed as a further increase in risk.

 

[Cooper]

according to most guys doing well on cream. You have to find the dose that works for you on scrotum only. I think the benefits we are now seeing with the cream to scrotum is the different absorption rate and faster peak and trough, as well as the dht boost. I can sympathize with you on how many things you tried and change. I’ve been in the same boat for a while. But frankly I’m sick of it and I’m finally committed to seeing the cream through. We have to stop over analyzing every symptom. Every time we get tired ,moody ,how are libido is every minute. It’s just not healthy. I know ssri are frowned upon by most. But I am going back on a low dose. I was much better on trt with the ssri. It helps with my Extreme overthinking. I know for me I need to see cream through for a few months so I can at least write it off once and for all. Or best case it works great and can go in with my life. That said, I hate the 2 x a day application so going to just do 1a.m dose. So far 2 clicks and I’m feeling decent.

Sounds like I am similar to you. Used cream several years back with good success. Switched to injections and have never felt as good. Keep wanting to go back to cream for extended period so that I can actually know for sure that it is better for me than injections or if I just remember it that way. However i am very concerned, probably overly so, about transference which stops me from returning to cream.

 

[Charliebizz]

Sounds like I am similar to you. Used cream several years back with good success. Switched to injections and have never felt as good. Keep wanting to go back to cream for extended period so that I can actually know for sure that it is better for me than injections or if I just remember it that way. However i am very concerned, probably overly so, about transference which stops me from returning to cream.

after my little rant about changing stuff to much. I had a really bad day. I felt like my t levels are way too high. I was so moody and irritable. I also worry about transference. (You can never be to safe when you have kids) I understand it’s highly unlikely. But I just couldn’t risk it and already bailed. It brought me to much stress. Also I think a lot of the positives you feel on the cream would eventually level. Out. The libido boost is almost too much and couldn’t imagine living a normal life with that high libido lol. But I’m sure your body would adapt. And at some point would feel very similar to a good injection protocol. And for me personally even daily shots are more convenient then using cream