I also read that morphine can increase 5 Alpha Reducatse MRNA, but also increases Aromatase mRNA in the brain and gonads. Im assuming by logic you would be getting a boost in DHT from taking morphine but also a boost in estrogen. Now Idk if I’d wanna agree with injecting moprhine but I heard there are natural alternative soures to get morphine into your system, I heard poppy seeds contain morphine and codeine. Basically 100g poppy seeds equals to 0.5-20mg of morphine. Also heard that morphine acts as an opiod agonist and opiods lower testosterone so that’s that lol. Still contemplating about it but not so sure lol, I will see in the future. I am in a phase of experimenting.
Permanent crash of estrogen?
- Thread starter Amanofgod
- Start date
Okay so I recently found out that when I consume soy isoflavone supplement which has phytoestrogens that bind to estrogen receptors either exerting weak estrogenic activity or antiestrogenic activity, I get a slight improvement in joint health and a little better pumps and veins popping little out more, but barely enough to make a big difference. The thing is I don’t wanna flood my estrogen receptors with these weak estrogen receptor agonists (phytoestrogens) and would rather have my esteogen receptors remain in a blank state so they will become flooded and acitvated by much more powerful estrogens like legit estradiol pills or injection the hormone itself. If you think it’s fine then I’ll gladly keep taking it but just for you to know it barely does much only a little improvement in joint health, less cracky but still has that tiny little crackiness to it.
@Mttumasov
You illustrated it very well hahaha.
I have the exact same symptoms.
I wouldn't eat the soy supplement.
Though, I wonder how you would respond to the popular menopause supplement that contains siberian rhubarb (life extension sells it, for example).
Don't bother with morphine. It's good that you research though. Dynorphin inhibits hpta via certain opioid receptor. This is why low dose naltrexone was suggested for PCT by some people.
Btw, before your crash, were you taking anything else? Supplementing with anything, like zinc?
You illustrated it very well hahaha.
I have the exact same symptoms.
I wouldn't eat the soy supplement.
Though, I wonder how you would respond to the popular menopause supplement that contains siberian rhubarb (life extension sells it, for example).
Don't bother with morphine. It's good that you research though. Dynorphin inhibits hpta via certain opioid receptor. This is why low dose naltrexone was suggested for PCT by some people.
Btw, before your crash, were you taking anything else? Supplementing with anything, like zinc?
when u say 0.25mg first, then 1mg a month later, and 2mg the next month, I assume ur friend was doing 0.25mg every day for a month, 1mg every day for a month, and then 2mg every day for a month, is that correct? And then he stopped taking it all together after that 3rd month?
Oh shit, I'm not sure. I'd have to check with him. The way he told me seemed as if it was like this: he tried 0.25mg and then waited for 1 month. And then took a bigger dose. And so on. He said he was scared that it would backfire, that's why he took lower dose first.
This reminds me of a weird PFS case. The guy found out that he recovers from severe PFS to about 80% pre-PFS state with 100mcg E2 patches/2x week. Without TRT. His androgens are basically undetectable yet he did not get feminized. He says he likes how E2 makes him feel.
I think this is a good example of how the body employs certain epigenetic mechanisms to ensure that the androgen receptor can signal without the actual androgen ligand. When he uses androgens of any sort, he crashes badly. It is possible that the permanent cure for him would entail takinga androgens and suffering the horrible symptoms until the epigenetic changes would be removed, so to speak.
But this is a different thing entirely, unrelated to the guy above.
When I was taking arimistane I was taking it with tongkat ali & fadojia agrestis and half a pill of zinc, Vitamin K2 Mk7, Vitamin D3 5000IU, that was basically all for the stack on cycle. Researched tongkat ali acts as an estrogen receptor antagonist because I tested it out once while I was in a crash it it just made me so flat and joints even more crackier and hurt, along with no stamina/fatique and no pumps and further anhedonia.
Lol, I was also taking tongkat, zinc, D3 when I crashed with aromasin. Funny (not).
Tongkat ali is weird - it's actually a potent AI but in a weird way. I haven't read about ER antagonism but it's possible.
Can I please ask you to go do some blood tests? I've been researching these AI crashes for over a year now and have managed to get some blood tests from other people. But not enough to find any clear pattern.
As of now, it's similar to PFS in terms of the variability between cases.
If you can, then I would check these: LH/FSH, test, E2, prolactin, DHT, progesterone, electrolytes. Thyroid and iron panel would get very helpful too. And ceruloplasmin and copper. But if this is too expensive, try to get at least LH/FSH, TT and E2, electrolytes and thyroid panel (tsh, free t4, free t3).
Good luck with your journey.
You can try 1-3 tablets of 731 to see if you react at all but yeah, I would first wait for real estrogen. Either pills or cream.
aloetard
Unofficial Disciple of Cataceous
When challenged, he either disappears or else ignores it.
Credit to you for providing the references.
aloetard
Unofficial Disciple of Cataceous
Robroy quoting Bertrand Russell? Damn, I was gone for too long. Thanks Robroy!
What was your undergraduate major Robroy?
tengounapregunta
New Member
Hey bro!
I made the same mistake on the same drug. Been struggling 7 years. I’m currently on TRT and E2 treatment and it’s definitely helped me, but hasn’t 100% cured me. I’m going to try to increase estrogen dose slowly but sure. Currently at 0.75mg E2 cypionate twice per week. 1mg gave me some anxiety last week I think, but going to try to roll upwards.
But yeah, arimistane fucked me.
I was natty when I took arimistane which is an even sillier mistake, but back then, it was available OTC on Amazon and advertised as a test booster and exercise supp. Easy mistake to make when you're a 20 year old caveman lol.
The good news is I think there's a way out. I've spoken to several people who have recovered. Some took estradiol, others a gambit of steroids, others Finasteride it seems.... just gotta find what works.
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Talking absolute waffle happens all the bloody time if it was impossible for receptor death they would just give estradiol to 100 year old women with alzheimers, the more tines you crash e the more receptors you loose, I can take estrogen for month on end and have with literally no change, having estradiol back in your blood and back in your brain are two very different things
I'm getting so tired of this low e2 life. My e2 on paper is normal, but no one believes me when I say my receptors have been desensitized.
All of this just because I took arimistane on its own for a month back in 2013, and then did 3 cycles of aromasin on its own in an attempt to boost my natural T, 2 weeks at 12.5mg EOD each time.
Now I don't have any :
- libido
- pumps
- lust
- desire to do anything
- desire to talk to anyone
Nothing feels pleasurable.
I have toyed with transdermal testosterone between 2019 and 2022, high doses, low doses, gotten my T up to 3 times the top of the range.
Yes it made me feel somewhat better, but not that much, and not enough to justify the daily hassle.
Estradiol creams even at high dose made no difference at all, only made me more bitchy than I already am with low e2.
Low e2 has cascaded into side effects :
- poor liver fonction
- poor gut fonction
- poor sleep
Nothing seems to make me better, I wish I had never touched an AI.
All of this just because I took arimistane on its own for a month back in 2013, and then did 3 cycles of aromasin on its own in an attempt to boost my natural T, 2 weeks at 12.5mg EOD each time.
Now I don't have any :
- libido
- pumps
- lust
- desire to do anything
- desire to talk to anyone
Nothing feels pleasurable.
I have toyed with transdermal testosterone between 2019 and 2022, high doses, low doses, gotten my T up to 3 times the top of the range.
Yes it made me feel somewhat better, but not that much, and not enough to justify the daily hassle.
Estradiol creams even at high dose made no difference at all, only made me more bitchy than I already am with low e2.
Low e2 has cascaded into side effects :
- poor liver fonction
- poor gut fonction
- poor sleep
Nothing seems to make me better, I wish I had never touched an AI.
I so wish you and every single person who liked your post were in my shoes for one hour only.
You would beg your way out of this living hell that is post AI e2 receptor desensitization.
Seagal
Well-Known Member
Do you have an explanation why it might take so long until
homeostasis is back?
Crazy thing is, there are people who actually fall into the trap of the medical industry and believe whatever these physicians say without actually questioning them. Just because there are no studies on a certain issue doesn’t mean such problem doesn’t exist, they think physicians are these demigods who make no mistake and are 100% truthful and will publish the truth. It’s wack. Lots of people’s lives have been screwed up because of physicians and most physicians don’t even know what they are talking about, most just have their selfish/greedy love for money but don’t care about patient health (not all but you experience negativity from most today). We are seeing a-lot of conflicting research data results and conclusions coming in and out that can make you really question the reliability of these physicians and scientists who made a certain claims anyways. Pretty sickening. And people oddly fall for the trap. People tend to oversimplify things but there are significantly way more nuances/deep in the iceberg info than the average knuckleheads would expect. They have a problem with reaching deep and seeing the issues that lie deep because they follow whatever the media and scientists, physicians say and it’s pretty ridiculous. But yeah. There’s more to estrogen issue than one would think. There’s a reason why regardless of a healthy diet like their past diet, healthy supplement routine on and off, diverging mind off of the negative effects of the crash and other bandage effects just seems to be something off, and to simply ignore and neglect victims is very ignorant and ludicrous.
Hello Zibernet, you aren’t the only one who is dealing with this, based on my experience you can (alleviate) the worse low estradiol symptoms by incorporating a smart approach in your diet and supplemental regime. I want you to really try this out… (Keep in mind, this is not a permanent cure to this issue but just acts as a reliever, maybe you are able to cure it by taking estradiol many variations but if not the best you can do man is to alleviate/put a bandage on it which is better than sucking up the worse symptoms—been there tried that but it was too much so the best you can do is alleviate it so it’s manageable and can handle it and do daily important life things). *KEY CONSIDERSTIONS BEFORE READING! For list #1– it’s more of a “Do not”. BUT in list #2– It will be more of a “do it with (additional) key infos/points”. In list #4–it will be “Try it out for yourself and see and which ever one makes you feel better then the other, stick to it.”
(#1: DO NOT take any vitamin B2/riboflavin (It deactivates estrogen in the liver), do not take B3/Niacinimide (It reduces estrogen receptors and it’s signaling making your low E2 symptoms even worse), do not take even half dosage of zinc, take only a (MINI/Tiny) bite size of zinc to prevent any anxiety like effects from not taking zinc (this anxiety is worsened—caused by increased glutamate since zinc can regulate GABA & glutamate affecting the calm and not calm state in yout mental health or you can try without and see how you feel but if you are working out to maintain the lossed gains then getting in enough zinc is important to feel “better” regardless of low E2 (so take a tiny bite sized zinc tablet, buy those biteable ones not capsules)(I noticed that while I have low E2 and don’t take zinc and at all), I get more negatives like high anxiety which is not good when you are in this state because the low estrogen state already will can give you anxiety but worsening it is a BIG NO NO since it will interfere with your daily life even more negatively putting more of a worse strain.
(#2: Next is to download the chronometer app (For counting your macro and micronutrient—this is VERY important during this stage of low E2 because having nutrient deficiencies is only going to make everything worse so by making sure you get in your nutrients optimally is best particularly must be from real foods which when you do this only can act as a positive bandage (NOT A COMPLETE CURE) but a bandage to keep you physically and mentally (ABLE) so you don’t have to feel like a COMPLETE 100% CRIPPLED WALKING ZOMBIE.
Next is to get on nofap/semen retention since if you are going to do the deed when you are in this state—it is only going to make it worse for you physically and mentally (It will increase your prolactin and screw up your dopamine receptors especially if you are watching pron and really make you a slobby lazy low E2 unproductive person, you have to get used to not using your junk since there isn’t anything significant that you can do for now. Let it go and be disciplined and you’d feel a better improvement in motivation/drive to be productive/less lazy and drained while you are in this low E2 state. So completely cut the pron usage out if you are watching it, it’s a huge snare/trap, so stop worrying stop worrying constantly about your pene all the time (I know some may be concerned with this since they will say that they have a partner, but I will get into that stuff of possible helps that can help). NEXT, is to boost your dopamine! From my experience, increasing your dopamine can play a significantly effective impact while you are into this Low E2 state because (dopamine can increase motivation/drive and lower prolactin/laziness hormone and make you do productive things and it actually gives you energy physically and mentally to workout physically and utilize your mental capacity effectively by reducing brain fog, cognitive inflexibility, negative/sad/depressed/angry mood. (NOTE ON THIS; You MUST make sure you get your micronutrient intake that’s necessary particularly in this Low E2 state dialed in since vitamins & minerals act as an important foundation to physical and particularly mental health (which is the most important out of all since it provides extremely important co-factors for neurotransmitter synthesis like dopamine & noradrenaline which is excellent for drive and motivation so this is where chronometer can come in clutch to help you out, once you done that—-consider experimenting in BUYING effective dopaminergic supplements like (Double Wood Macuna Pruriens since this brand works well for me, but you can try couple other brands of macuna out but judt make sure the reviews are mostly good on amazon or iHerb or any other reliable website in your country. So Macuna, Catuaba (Increases dopamine release strength—swanson has a good brand), 1 or 2 grams of phenylalanine daily (precursor to dopamine), uridine monophosphate (Sensitizes dopamine receptors—you can try out nootropic depot or double wood brand or any highly positively rated one based on reviews, rhodiola rosea (try out any brand that’s highly positively rated with fewer side effects—I use swanson brand, Take also high quality (500mg) of Vitamin B1/Thiamine (Increases dopamine). Next up (extremely important so don’t let this fly over your head since this can help alot is to eat a very nutrient dense diet and this diet based on chronometer according to your bodyweight needs is: Ground Beef/Red meat + chicken drumstick & thighs (optional but you can occasionally add it in if you want alternating occasionally back and forth), jasmine rice or potatoes You can pick whichever one you like for carbs to energize and fuel yourself daily), egg yolks NOT egg whites (Egg whites can make you slightly more fatigued so you can experiment with eating only egg yolks since 98% of important nutrients is found in egg yolks, you can try out eating raw by making a yummy energizing eggnog homemade smoothie which I’ll help you understand what’s inside and if you experience negative effects from raw egg yolks, you can simply cook the whole entire eggs of your preference and eat with your preferred carbohydrate that’s healthy. Now let’s get into this energizing helpful smoothie in which I’ll start with an example: 1 banana + 2 cups of whole or low-fat milk (whatever % you like and also if you react badly to the lactose you can consider buying A2 or lactose free milk), + 3-8 egg yolks (you can manually/physically separate the egg yolks from the whites with a round spoon not oval spoon and take scissors to carefully cut the egg whites that are attached to the egg yolks (make sure you get as much egg whites out as possible since egg whites when raw can interfere with biotin absorption. + 1-2 or 3 or 4 tablespoon of cocoa powder (rich in micronutrients like magnesium & copper etc and increases beta-endorphins, increases dopamine and makes you slightly less fatigued from the Low E2 symptoms and can actually be slightly anabolic due to it increasing follistatin and lowering myostatin and lowering of cortisol/stress hormone which will help you with improving your mood during your low E2 state. If you experience negative effects from cocao powder due to overstimulation (you can consider taking it with vitamin B6 P5P—MUST be P5P) and L-theanine—I use nutricost brand but you can find other good reviewed high quality brands. If you experience negative overstimulation effects from cocoa powder regardless if you tried different dosages, simply type in this forum so I can try helping you out, but if not then simply stop the cocoa powder usage since it’s doing more worse than good, get your fats from olive oil, coconut oil, avocado oil, ghee butter or beef tallow or cocoa butter, or grass-fed butter.
(#3: Lower your seretonin (contrary to big pharma and other ridiculous big pharma funded studies/articles and others, seretonin can actually be harmful for your physical and mental health since it’s not the feel good hormone and can make you feel even worse while you have low E2 since it can make you more depressed, anxious, less confident, make you less dopamine dominant, give you more brainfog, gut problems, more irritable/angry. Consider experimenting/trying out effective seretonin lowering protocol: First; Vitamin B1 500mg or 400mg of Sulbatiamine (Lowers seretonin receptors and increases CO2 which is an effective seretonin antagonist. Second; L-Theanine (Lowers seretonin globally in the brain and increases dopamine, GABA and lowers cortisol/stress), Third; Life extension super K or Vitamin K2 (can buy one that is 45mg of 15mg of the ones that are mcg/microgram range NOT miligram aka MG. Forth: Swanson FeverFew (Reduces seretonin receptors—can buy any other good brands doesn’t have to be swanson), 500mg L-Lysine tablets or powder (lowers seretonin receptors and can help retain the muscles).
“Below is the try it out and see for yourself section to see what alleviates low E2 symptoms and what doesn’t”.
(#4: Try out magnesium (particularly glycinate) Helps with cortisol/stress, but if you notice lower E2 side effects then simply don’t supplement Magnesium but get it from healthy diet like cocoa powder and bananas. (NOTE: This is where buying a good food measuring scale can help you track your food intake. Try alternating between low carb, moderate carb and high carb and see which you feel better since carbs can lower E2 when too high— so experiment between 50-100g-200g-300g-400g. Make sure you consume protein proportional to your bodyweight. And also make sure you consume your fats too according to chronometers ratio and your bodyweight and height ratio that you inputted inside the chronometer app. You can also experiment with Vitamin E (get a good brand ofc, vitamin E can help lower prolactin and help with feeling mentally and physically slightly better), experiment with taking Vitamin A 5,000-10,000 IU for feeling physically and mentally better. Experiment with Vitamin D3 (for better mood and physical benefits but if you feel even lower E2 symptoms consider not taking any vitamin D3 at all or maybe try alternating/cycling occasionally. Experiment with some Phosphatidylserine (Lowers cortisol and helps with synthesis of dopamine). You can experiemnt with nitric oxide boosters like L arginine or L citrulline at different dosages (I found out it improves joint stiffness, discomfort/crackiness and improves pumps and stamina slightly so buy reputable high quality positive reviewed brands that work).
(#6: EXPERIMENT AND LEARN. I highly recommend you to check out testonation website so you can learn alot of useful information on testosterone & DHT benefit optimization which can help alleviate your low E2 symptoms (NOT CURE) but the best you can do is alleviate and that’s more than enough to keep you going physically and mentally in your daily life. So go check out testonation and experiment with effective supplements or lifestyle routines and others to see what helps make you feel better. From my experience, increasing DHT and lowering seretonin and increasing dopamine and playing around with certain micronutrient and macronutrient intake along with certain lifestyle protocols can really help alleviate the Low E2 side effects significantly. Last resort is if you need help I really want you to reach out to me privately since I am able to help you out!
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Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I indeed feel way worse when taking B vitamins and Zinc, however I find myself in quite a conondrum as my hair analysis shows copper levels 10 times above the top of the range and zinc levels 1/10th of what I should have at the minimum.
Copper overload is causing a ton of symptoms on its own, so I am forcing myself to take 25mg zinc everyday. It won't be properly absorbed unless I take it with a B vitamin complex and vitamin C, they are important cofactors.
I have to accept feeling horrible for a few months in order to correct that extreme zinc deficiency.
Regarding your advice on vitamin A : it is a terrible poison and no one should be consuming it wether from foods or suppements.
Plenty of info on here :
As far as diets are concerned, I have tried them all for a good 6 months each :
- standard western diet
- vegetarian diet
- high carb
- keto
- cooked carnivore
- raw carnivore
- fruitarian
Nothing made a significant change, raw carnivore made me feel a little better but wasn't socially sustainable.
As far as trying compounds to alleviate my situations, I have tried more than you could think of :
- test base in DMSO
- DHT
- Proviron
- Masteron
- E2
- Clomid
- HCG
- rHGH
- MK-677
Some temporarily helped but made me feel like a different version of myself from pre AI crash.
The only dopaminergic compound that works for me is black coffee, and yes I am well aware of the dangers of serotonin since extensively reading the work of Ray Peat since 2015.
By the way, cleaning your gut as much as possible with natural antibiotics and antifungals is one of the best things you can do to lower your serotonin.
Let's wait for someone who has tried novel approaches that none of us has tried yet !
Besides getting your knowledge on B-vitamins and C working as important cofactors which there seems to not be any evidences of zinc needing the B-vitamins (all) I am assuming to make zinc “work” and by important I am assuming having (direct) effects? If so then I haven’t seen any studies regarding this except maybe Vitamin B6 where it would compliment with zinc to help it work better. Have you even tried to just let go of the B-complex supplement and get it from your food instead? Maybe you can even just supplement B6 & B1 but get the other’s from your food instead. People tend to get so distracted or caught up in this rigid mindset of theories that are backed up by non-conclusive evidences to the point where it fear-mongers them from actually trying out themselves to see if it is benefitting them or not benefitting them. People who just get B-vitamins from their regular diet still are able to reduce their copper levels via zinc supplementation without having to supplement unnecessarily with B-Complex and Vitamin C based on anecdotal evidence and regular studies conducted on copper depletion. Also regarding Vitamin A, it isn’t a toxin like how you would make it up to be because obviously the body needs it so getting from food is important for the function of many things like LH, Testosterone, modulation of cortisol enzymes and receptors. Many people benefit a lot from vitamin A supplementation or food intake for a long time and never experience negative effects but positive effects while ones who experience negative effects are such an extremely rare case of minority groups to the point where you can reasonably say that if they supplement or try out any other vitamins and minerals they would also experience negative effects which points to other biological problem in their body. If Vitamin A were a bad thing then it would 100% not exist but everything in our body exists for a reason to serve for a certain function but we just have to be smart about our choices to determine which one deserves to be modulated more to lower it or to increase or sensitize or to desensitize to benefit our health or not. But regardless of this, have you even considered not actually taking B-Complex supplements and just a little bit of C via supplementation unless you drink orange juice or other Vitamin C rich foods? Portioning and playing around and taking out certain dosages can help make you find the right dosage for alleviation. Also do you have any idea how your copper levels raised that high according to your hair analysis?
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