Permanent crash of estrogen?

[Zibernet]

Any other symptoms besides that?

Have you tried exogenous E2, on TRT or off it?
Or what other things have you tried? Maybe HCG or anything more exotic?

And what do your blood tests say?

That's already a lot of symptoms.

HCG never improved things, Clomid made things worse.

Just ordered an estradiol cream, never tried exogenous e2 before.

Blood test shows mid range e2.

 

[zancek0]

That's already a lot of symptoms.

HCG never improved things, Clomid made things worse.

Just ordered an estradiol cream, never tried exogenous e2 before.

Blood test shows mid range e2.

Yeah, these are brutal symptoms. I ask if there are other symptoms (like joint symptoms, sexual symptoms, fatigue, infections, hairloss etc) because as of now I've talked to a dozen of AI crashers and I'm trying to find a pattern. As of now it's apparent reversible AI crash cases shouldn't be equated with irreversible AI crashes. But even among each category there are differences: low genital sensation and orgasm vs high; joint pain vs lack of pain; 0 cognitive symptoms and significant symptoms etc.

Did clomid feel as if it increased low e2 symptoms or induced some new ones?
There is one aromasin case that recovered with HCG but used some other stuff alongside it. How did you feel on HCG?

Would you be willing to share any kind of tests you've done?
I don't think serum levels are relevant in isolation but with irreversible AI crashes low e2 levels with normal tt do tell us something.

 

[Pnw0031]

Most definitely. It personally helped me figure out some of my issues, though dealing with them’s another story depending on what’s up with that. Thyroid is a rate limiter for how well you can do on TRT it would seem, cortisol being a limiter on that further down the chain.

Older thread but I just recently found out I have hypothyroidism. Can only wonder if my trt woes are due to it!

 

[swolg8r]

That's already a lot of symptoms.

HCG never improved things, Clomid made things worse.

Just ordered an estradiol cream, never tried exogenous e2 before.

Blood test shows mid range e2.

A big factor I see on bloodwork for a lot of us who crashed with Aromasin is that despite injecting anywhere from high trt to supra-physiologic dosages of testosterone, estrogen doesn’t really budge. For instance, off trt my test levels are 749ng/dL but my estradiol sensitive is 25pg/mL. Then when I go on testosterone injections, despite doubling or tripling level of testosterone, my estradiol level may go up a couple points to 29-30pg/mL.

 

[swolg8r]

Older thread but I just recently found out I have hypothyroidism. Can only wonder if my trt woes are due to it!

Let us know if you get any better after taking thyroid medicine!

 

[Systemlord]

Older thread but I just recently found out I have hypothyroidism.

Thyroid hormones help the liver metabolism of testosterone. People with hypothyroidism don’t metabolize testosterone very well.

 

[ronimals]

Hello everyone. After dealing with the same issue of “permanently” crashed estrogen for the past 2 years, I have extensively studied this topic, and believe I HAVE FOUND THE ANSWER.



A little background about myself, I am 28 years old and used to compete in bodybuilding show. I hired a “pro” coach back in 2022 for my last prep. With a pretty much standard prep cycle, the coach had me take 1mg Arimidex twice a day + 2.5mg letrozole every day for 30 days straight (INSANE dose) for the purpose of competing and drying out, with little knowledge of the consequences that would come with it.



2 years ago, June 2022 I competed, and right after that I started with a TRT clinic and have been on 150mg TRT + 0.25mg Arimidex 2x a week since then. Over time, symptoms slowly started to develop, and for the life of me, I could not figure out why or associate it with aromatase inhibitors and crashed estrogen. The clinic would get my bloodwork done every 3-4 months, yet bloodwork showed mostly everything in range, even all hormones. My symptoms developed to being severe:

Dry skin, Dry Scalp, Dry mouth, Difficulty regulating body temperature (excessive sweating/cold sweats), out of breath, high blood pressure, extreme anxiety (avoiding eye contact, tremors, brain fog, could not form complete sentences), anhedonia, lack of serotonin, very low libido, delay urination, unregulated blood sugar (would go hypo after workouts+ high carb meals), acid reflux, short temper, lethargy.





September 2023, over a year later, I looked back at all my previous bloodworks and realized that even though it was all within range, my E2 came back at 9-12 range (6-40 normal reference), so it would show up as “within range” and not get questioned by doctors. Doctors would not know what's wrong. Told me my bloodwork looked great. Some theorized thyroid issues, yet thyroid bloodwork was perfect. At this point I realized that my estrogen was "borderline" low and completely stopped using any Aromatase inhibitors. Over the next month, my symptoms improved a lot, but some remained and would not get better after October 2023:

Dry scalp, excessive sweating, out of breath, high blood pressure, slight brain fog, anhedonia, low libido, delay urination, and short temper.

My bloodworks from November 2023 and March 2024 showed great bloodwork. Estrogen was now 30-35ng/dl, yet the symptoms stopped improving after October and the rest remained.

Research made me realize what was going on and developed some theories. Estrogen is responsible for many effects on the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus is responsible for regulating temperature (excessive sweating, overheating), stress, creates serotonin (responsible for the anhedonia, “reward” system- being motivated to go out of your way to do things, libido), and activates the sympathetic nervous system (most IMPORTANT). sympathetic nervous system was broken and extremely sensitive- any slight trigger of the fight of flight response- (working out, anxiety, or heat) would exacerbate the effects on the fight or flight response (excessive sweating, overheating, anxiety, high blood pressure). Estrogen pretty much fucked up my hypothalamus and sympathetic nervous system.



Fast forward to May 5 2024, I tried something different which resolved almost all my issues over the past 20 days, to which I am sure it’s not a placebo and is getting better daily in every aspect. My theory was that even though my bloodwork is showing E2 within normal range, my receptors may be severely desensitized to where the effects of E2 are not taking place. I tried increasing my estrogen, taking estrogen valerate, with little effect. Finally, instead of focusing on estrogen, I decided to start focusing on my DHT. What if Estrogen is having a low effect on me, while DHT is now affecting me at a much higher ratio? There are many reports of people taking DHT blockers- Finasteride- and report “post finasteride syndrome” which matches up with a lot of our symptoms on permanently crashed estrogen. For a normal person with an out of range E2/DHT, this makes sense as they mess up their hormone ratio, but what if it is the other way around for us, and may end up balancing out our hormones? Not only that, but by preventing the conversion to DHT, you are allowing more Testosterone to convert to Estrogen.



On may 5th, I began taking 1mg finasteride/day. Within 3 days my symptoms have significantly improved and continue to change daily after 20 days and the difference is night and day. I can have full workouts with only slightly breaking out in sweat. I have motivation to go outside and do things. Sex drive is slowly coming back. I hope it continues to stay this way and will be able to report back in a few months to confirm this

 

[zancek0]

Hello everyone. After dealing with the same issue of “permanently” crashed estrogen for the past 2 years, I have extensively studied this topic, and believe I HAVE FOUND THE ANSWER.



A little background about myself, I am 28 years old and used to compete in bodybuilding show. I hired a “pro” coach back in 2022 for my last prep. With a pretty much standard prep cycle, the coach had me take 1mg Arimidex twice a day + 2.5mg letrozole every day for 30 days straight (INSANE dose) for the purpose of competing and drying out, with little knowledge of the consequences that would come with it.



2 years ago, June 2022 I competed, and right after that I started with a TRT clinic and have been on 150mg TRT + 0.25mg Arimidex 2x a week since then. Over time, symptoms slowly started to develop, and for the life of me, I could not figure out why or associate it with aromatase inhibitors and crashed estrogen. The clinic would get my bloodwork done every 3-4 months, yet bloodwork showed mostly everything in range, even all hormones. My symptoms developed to being severe:

Dry skin, Dry Scalp, Dry mouth, Difficulty regulating body temperature (excessive sweating/cold sweats), out of breath, high blood pressure, extreme anxiety (avoiding eye contact, tremors, brain fog, could not form complete sentences), anhedonia, lack of serotonin, very low libido, delay urination, unregulated blood sugar (would go hypo after workouts+ high carb meals), acid reflux, short temper, lethargy.





September 2023, over a year later, I looked back at all my previous bloodworks and realized that even though it was all within range, my E2 came back at 9-12 range (6-40 normal reference), so it would show up as “within range” and not get questioned by doctors. Doctors would not know what's wrong. Told me my bloodwork looked great. Some theorized thyroid issues, yet thyroid bloodwork was perfect. At this point I realized that my estrogen was "borderline" low and completely stopped using any Aromatase inhibitors. Over the next month, my symptoms improved a lot, but some remained and would not get better after October 2023:

Dry scalp, excessive sweating, out of breath, high blood pressure, slight brain fog, anhedonia, low libido, delay urination, and short temper.

My bloodworks from November 2023 and March 2024 showed great bloodwork. Estrogen was now 30-35ng/dl, yet the symptoms stopped improving after October and the rest remained.

Research made me realize what was going on and developed some theories. Estrogen is responsible for many effects on the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus is responsible for regulating temperature (excessive sweating, overheating), stress, creates serotonin (responsible for the anhedonia, “reward” system- being motivated to go out of your way to do things, libido), and activates the sympathetic nervous system (most IMPORTANT). sympathetic nervous system was broken and extremely sensitive- any slight trigger of the fight of flight response- (working out, anxiety, or heat) would exacerbate the effects on the fight or flight response (excessive sweating, overheating, anxiety, high blood pressure). Estrogen pretty much fucked up my hypothalamus and sympathetic nervous system.



Fast forward to May 5 2024, I tried something different which resolved almost all my issues over the past 20 days, to which I am sure it’s not a placebo and is getting better daily in every aspect. My theory was that even though my bloodwork is showing E2 within normal range, my receptors may be severely desensitized to where the effects of E2 are not taking place. I tried increasing my estrogen, taking estrogen valerate, with little effect. Finally, instead of focusing on estrogen, I decided to start focusing on my DHT. What if Estrogen is having a low effect on me, while DHT is now affecting me at a much higher ratio? There are many reports of people taking DHT blockers- Finasteride- and report “post finasteride syndrome” which matches up with a lot of our symptoms on permanently crashed estrogen. For a normal person with an out of range E2/DHT, this makes sense as they mess up their hormone ratio, but what if it is the other way around for us, and may end up balancing out our hormones? Not only that, but by preventing the conversion to DHT, you are allowing more Testosterone to convert to Estrogen.



On may 5th, I began taking 1mg finasteride/day. Within 3 days my symptoms have significantly improved and continue to change daily after 20 days and the difference is night and day. I can have full workouts with only slightly breaking out in sweat. I have motivation to go outside and do things. Sex drive is slowly coming back. I hope it continues to stay this way and will be able to report back in a few months to confirm this

Hey bro, thanks for sharing your experience.
Very useful. Hopefully it all goes well.

Can I ask some questions?

1. The out of breath symptom --- can you explain a bit more what you mean by this?

2. You said you tried estrogen valerate. In which form? Injection, oral pills? What was the dose and how long have you experimented with it?

3. Were you on TRT all this time? Have you tried getting off?

4. Can you please share all of your bloodworks? I know it's a lot to ask but it will be very helpful to me. You can send in DM.

5. You mention "standard prep cycle" in 2022. What did it entail? Besides the AIs, what were you taking/injecting?

 

[glob]

Yeah, these are brutal symptoms. I ask if there are other symptoms (like joint symptoms, sexual symptoms, fatigue, infections, hairloss etc) because as of now I've talked to a dozen of AI crashers and I'm trying to find a pattern. As of now it's apparent reversible AI crash cases shouldn't be equated with irreversible AI crashes. But even among each category there are differences: low genital sensation and orgasm vs high; joint pain vs lack of pain; 0 cognitive symptoms and significant symptoms etc.

Did clomid feel as if it increased low e2 symptoms or induced some new ones?
There is one aromasin case that recovered with HCG but used some other stuff alongside it. How did you feel on HCG?

Would you be willing to share any kind of tests you've done?
I don't think serum levels are relevant in isolation but with irreversible AI crashes low e2 levels with normal tt do tell us something.

I fixed myself from those symptoms by 2.5mg of zyprexa… go figure

 

[ronimals]

Hey bro, thanks for sharing your experience.
Very useful. Hopefully it all goes well.

Can I ask some questions?

1. The out of breath symptom --- can you explain a bit more what you mean by this?

2. You said you tried estrogen valerate. In which form? Injection, oral pills? What was the dose and how long have you experimented with it?

3. Were you on TRT all this time? Have you tried getting off?

4. Can you please share all of your bloodworks? I know it's a lot to ask but it will be very helpful to me. You can send in DM.

5. You mention "standard prep cycle" in 2022. What did it entail? Besides the AIs, what were you taking/injecting?

Happy to share with everyone.
1. Meaning as a bodybuilder prior, I would be able to do 20-30 working sets with 60 seconds inbetween without breaking a sweat and breathing normally. For the past 2 years, after doing 1 intense set, I would be pouring sweat instantly and would take me 3-10 mins to get my breath back for my next working set.
Walking at 2.5mph and a slight incline would get me out of breath and sweating after about 5 minutes. Other than that, I would be breathing normally throughout the day.

2. 1mg/day injection for almost a month. Almost no difference.

3. I have been on TRT 175mg/week for the past 2 years since my last show. This is not a variable change and nothing has changed since then, nor do I ever plan on stopping.

5. 350mg test/350 tren/ 350 mast. your most basic 12 week prep cycle for a mens physique show with some added oral anavar and winstrol towards the end. Nothing close to crazy besides the AI dosages I was given.




I have attached 3 of my bloodworks that I could find.
The very first bloodwork was taken during my period of 175mg TRT + 0.25mg arimidex twice a week. This was when my symptoms were absolutely the worst.

I remember taking the 2nd bloodwork exactly 3 weeks after stopping the arimidex. A lot of symptoms resolved to some extent.
3rd bloodwork was also taken during this time with similar results months later. symptoms were constant and nothing changed during these months.

This is when i looked back at those 2 bloodworks and realized the DHT was borderline high and maybe I should play around with it, and started taking finasteride 20 days ago. All my symptoms are 99% gone, and my life is noticeably getting better every day, even today 20 days later.



I suggest you look at the bloodwork as a guideline. I'm sure you can find thousands of people with similar bloodwork, but they will not have the same affects as everyone here. REMEMEBR MY THEORY: we crashed our estrogen for an extended period of time. We may try and increase our circulating estrogen, but our receptors are extremely desensitized and will NOT have the full effects of estrogen no matter how much you increase it, while our effects from DHT are much higher, and instead we should focus on decreasing the effects of DHT to balance out this ratio.

 

[zancek0]

Happy to share with everyone.
1. Meaning as a bodybuilder prior, I would be able to do 20-30 working sets with 60 seconds inbetween without breaking a sweat and breathing normally. For the past 2 years, after doing 1 intense set, I would be pouring sweat instantly and would take me 3-10 mins to get my breath back for my next working set.
Walking at 2.5mph and a slight incline would get me out of breath and sweating after about 5 minutes. Other than that, I would be breathing normally throughout the day.

2. 1mg/day injection for almost a month. Almost no difference.

3. I have been on TRT 175mg/week for the past 2 years since my last show. This is not a variable change and nothing has changed since then, nor do I ever plan on stopping.

5. 350mg test/350 tren/ 350 mast. your most basic 12 week prep cycle for a mens physique show with some added oral anavar and winstrol towards the end. Nothing close to crazy besides the AI dosages I was given.




I have attached 3 of my bloodworks that I could find.
The very first bloodwork was taken during my period of 175mg TRT + 0.25mg arimidex twice a week. This was when my symptoms were absolutely the worst.

I remember taking the 2nd bloodwork exactly 3 weeks after stopping the arimidex. A lot of symptoms resolved to some extent.
3rd bloodwork was also taken during this time with similar results months later. symptoms were constant and nothing changed during these months.

This is when i looked back at those 2 bloodworks and realized the DHT was borderline high and maybe I should play around with it, and started taking finasteride 20 days ago. All my symptoms are 99% gone, and my life is noticeably getting better every day, even today 20 days later.



I suggest you look at the bloodwork as a guideline. I'm sure you can find thousands of people with similar bloodwork, but they will not have the same affects as everyone here. REMEMEBR MY THEORY: we crashed our estrogen for an extended period of time. We may try and increase our circulating estrogen, but our receptors are extremely desensitized and will NOT have the full effects of estrogen no matter how much you increase it, while our effects from DHT are much higher, and instead we should focus on decreasing the effects of DHT to balance out this ratio.

Thanks a lot for this!
This is very helpful. High DHT and insulin -- it does actually seem that finasteride is perfect drug for your case.
I actually came to the same conclusion but my DHT wasn't high so I didn't want to risk taking fin. Your case seems to justify it.
I actually think that long term AI use downregulated androgen receptors as well. Using fin will upregulate them both by reducing DHT and by stimulating estrogen receptors.

I do know one guy that also tried finasteride and reported feeling recovered. He was using it for quite a while and then started getting high E2 symptoms again. He used an AI and crashed again. So I guess the lesson is to avoid AIs. If you do feel high E2 symptoms in time then it's probably better to use something less harsh.

Also, saying this as someone that is active in PFS communities, if you ever decide to go off finasteride, make sure to taper off really slowly.

Oh, right, one more thing:
- you said you used 1mg of e2 valerate for a month with almost no difference. Have you tried other things like HCG too?

 

[zancek0]

I fixed myself from those symptoms by 2.5mg of zyprexa… go figure

Hey bro, hope you are well. I remember we talked about some others atypical antipsychotics. How long are you on zyprexa now? You stopped the other things?

 

[ronimals]

Thanks a lot for this!
This is very helpful. High DHT and insulin -- it does actually seem that finasteride is perfect drug for your case.
I actually came to the same conclusion but my DHT wasn't high so I didn't want to risk taking fin. Your case seems to justify it.
I actually think that long term AI use downregulated androgen receptors as well. Using fin will upregulate them both by reducing DHT and by stimulating estrogen receptors.

I do know one guy that also tried finasteride and reported feeling recovered. He was using it for quite a while and then started getting high E2 symptoms again. He used an AI and crashed again. So I guess the lesson is to avoid AIs. If you do feel high E2 symptoms in time then it's probably better to use something less harsh.

Also, saying this as someone that is active in PFS communities, if you ever decide to go off finasteride, make sure to taper off really slowly.

ignore the insulin. I measure that myself 3-5x a day and it's perfect. Did not plan on getting it tested and getting bloodwork done 2 hours after eating 150g carb+ 50g protein isn't the best indicator lol.

I would suggest ignoring the bloodwork numbers and try taking finasteride or a DHT blocker. Your circulating E2 and DHT are not indicators or how your receptors are responding and it seems that even if DHT is in normal range, it is having a greater effect on us than our estrogen and needs to be balanced out

 

[ronimals]

Thanks a lot for this!
This is very helpful. High DHT and insulin -- it does actually seem that finasteride is perfect drug for your case.
I actually came to the same conclusion but my DHT wasn't high so I didn't want to risk taking fin. Your case seems to justify it.
I actually think that long term AI use downregulated androgen receptors as well. Using fin will upregulate them both by reducing DHT and by stimulating estrogen receptors.

I do know one guy that also tried finasteride and reported feeling recovered. He was using it for quite a while and then started getting high E2 symptoms again. He used an AI and crashed again. So I guess the lesson is to avoid AIs. If you do feel high E2 symptoms in time then it's probably better to use something less harsh.

Also, saying this as someone that is active in PFS communities, if you ever decide to go off finasteride, make sure to taper off really slowly.

Oh, right, one more thing:
- you said you used 1mg of e2 valerate for a month with almost no difference. Have you tried other things like HCG too?

Yes I tried HCG various times up to 3 months straight. Doesn't do shit, and doubt it would

 

[Bmac]

I fixed myself from those symptoms by 2.5mg of zyprexa… go figure

Which symptoms specifically did zyprexa fix?

 

[ronimals]

You all can either try taking zyprexa/antipsychotics to mask the mental/serotonin problems of having unabalanced hormones, or you can try my advice and take a DHT blocker to fix the root of the hormonal balances causing these issues, which will then fix your hypothalamus as well.

It's like having all the same issues from the main source, but being prescribed a cocktail of meds like hydrocortisone for the dry skin, melatonin for sleep, nizoral for dry hair, cialis for erections, and SSRI for depression, all while masking the root issue for unbalanced hormones, when you should be focusing on that instead.

It's like having a broken arm and taking tylenol for the pain instead of fixing the broken arm

 

[zancek0]

You all can either try taking zyprexa/antipsychotics to mask the mental/serotonin problems of having unabalanced hormones, or you can try my advice and take a DHT blocker to fix the root of the hormonal balances causing these issues, which will then fix your hypothalamus as well.

It's like having all the same issues from the main source, but being prescribed a cocktail of meds like hydrocortisone for the dry skin, melatonin for sleep, nizoral for dry hair, cialis for erections, and SSRI for depression, all while masking the root issue for unbalanced hormones, when you should be focusing on that instead.

It's like having a broken arm and taking tylenol for the pain instead of fixing the broken arm

I agree. I wonder if "natural" 5ar inhibitors would bring similar results. I think not. I think it's how finasteride specifically inhibits 5ar, being a sort of progestin. But I will be trying reishi to see if the mild 5ar inhibition will do anything.

Btw, are you planning to do any bloodworks while on fin?

 

[ronimals]

I agree. I wonder if "natural" 5ar inhibitors would bring similar results. I think not. I think it's how finasteride specifically inhibits 5ar, being a sort of progestin. But I will be trying reishi to see if the mild 5ar inhibition will do anything.

Btw, are you planning to do any bloodworks while on fin?

I'm on TRT as mentioned. I get boodwork done every 4 months for life

 

[Pnw0031]

Let us know if you get any better after taking thyroid medicine!

@Systemlord

Thank you! My defy appointment is on the 4th I was able to move my appointment up.

My t3 labs show potential sub clinical hypothyroidism. I’ll see what Ben thinks. I admittedly don’t know much about the thyroid, we never really learned about it in paramedic school largely because it’s the least likely endocrine disorder we treat haha.

You’re right about poor liver metabolism caused by hypothyroidism causing issues with trt. I swear I’ve had hypothyroidism symptoms well before I started trt. You are always thinking about all factors, I appreciate it every time you throw your thoughts on here.

I am going to switch back to prop as well because it simply feels the best and cream didnt fix my sleep- if anything it made my hypothyroidism symptoms worse. There’s some studies that prop increases t3, but in animal studies so take with a grain of salt. Something about prop makes it feel like I’m actually on testosterone, I should have just stuck on it but I’m stubborn.

I will give an update on a separate thread regarding where I go with both a thyroid protocol and restarting prop.

 

[JA Battle]

Things still going well with the fin?