NO HCG: Dr. Abraham Morgentaler, Dr. Rand McClain, and Jay Campbell??
- Thread starter jth0524
- Start date
Vince Carter
Banned
...and that's exactly how we get new info...folks willing to try, test, and report back.
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
I would not encourage people to post on FB since anything we spend time answering there gets lost in the FB black hole in a few days and it does not help others in the future.
I could´t access the link for some reason.
Could someone sum up the view of those who are against TRT +hCG? What exactly are they saying? Do they offer an alternative solution to testes shrinkage? Are they saying it is not safe in the long run?
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
Mason Woolf I'd love to hear more about this. Hopefully some of these guys will respond.
Like · June 11 at 12:35pm
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh Any experience with hcg for me has never ended well after about 4-5 weeks even if dosing was really low. I may use it cyclical in the future but for no more than 2 weeks at a time.
Like · June 11 at 1:02pm
Kapil Bhatia
Kapil Bhatia Chad Hamzeh In what way did your experience of HCG use not end well around the 02 week mark?? Could you elaborate ?? Thanks in advance ??
Like · June 13 at 5:27pm
Calvin Smith
Calvin Smith What happened with the "hcg"?
Like · June 11 at 1:54pm
Paolo Altoé
Paolo Altoé Glauber Marcius; Gustavo Medeiros
Like · 1 · June 11 at 2:21pm
John Crisler
John Crisler We must not forget there are LH receptors all over the body--they would not be there were there not a reason for them. The LH receptors in the more peripheral (emotional) centers of the brain reward us with a sense of well-being. It also takes LH to ge...See More
Unlike · 9 · June 11 at 3:57pm
John Crisler
John Crisler Dr. Mark Gordon does not regularly use HCG, but he said on stage (AMMG Orlando) a few weeks ago he does not fully suppress LH, so "it stays above 1.0".
Like · June 11 at 3:58pm
Darko Markovic
Darko Markovic How is possible not to supress LH on TRT ?
Like · 1 · June 12 at 12:56pm · Edited
David Tomić
David Tomić magic
Like · June 14 at 5:42am
John Crisler
John Crisler Nelson Vergel, didn't you just post a fascinating study on the StAR?
Like · June 11 at 3:59pm
John Crisler
John Crisler The one-and-only Dr. Eugene Shippen is masterful in his use of HCG, BTW.
Like · June 11 at 3:59pm
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh I find I can use HCG for 2-3 weeks at a time, every 2-3 months or so, with no ill effects. But like clockwork, each time I've gone past 5 weeks, even at a dose of 100 per day, it doesn't turn out well. So for my biochemistry I guess, it has a place, just not always on.
Like · 1 · June 11 at 4:00pm
Kapil Bhatia
Kapil Bhatia What I'll effects do you get around the 05 week mark??
Like · June 13 at 5:30pm
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh Lot's of acne, libido drops, high estrogen symptoms, and my labs confirm it. A friend of mine gets the same around 8 weeks, but obviously lots of people do it long term without issues.
Like · 2 · June 13 at 5:51pm
View more replies
John Crisler
John Crisler Been using LD HCG therapy since 2002, with great results. I want nearly all my TRT patients on it. "Backfilling the Pathways" is why our guys do better.
Like · 2 · June 13 at 5:45am
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh I suppose not everyone is the same in this regard. I was recently advised at defy to drop the hcg after my last labs and symptoms around the 5 week mark. As mentioned, it works great for me for a couple weeks, but seems to increase E for me by a good amount, has happened every time, whether on T or not. I think for me there is value in cycling it.
Like · June 13 at 1:09pm
Kapil Bhatia
Kapil Bhatia Chad Hamzeh what symptoms do you get around the 05 week mark???
Like · June 13 at 5:20pm
John Crisler
John Crisler As a reminder, starting TRT shuts down your LH. HCG is a mimic of LH. LH is needed all over the body, and is our natural (healthy) state of being.
Like · 4 · June 13 at 5:46am
Jason Petty
Jason Petty What is the Average Dosage
Of HCG for Guys on 100mg Cyp per week? I know everyone is Diff just wondering the Average is all
Like · 1 · June 13 at 6:30am
Kirk Yager
Kirk Yager You may find this interesting, DrCrisler.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3274763/...See More
Progesterone Synthesis in the Nervous System: Implications for…
NCBI.NLM.NIH.GOV
Like · Remove Preview · 1 · June 13 at 9:49am · Edited
Gene Devine
Gene Devine I've stated it many times; one can't shut down a hormone like LH and think it's normal and healthy...it's not!
Like · 2 · June 13 at 8:16am
Mason Woolf
Mason Woolf Seems entirely logical to me. Would love to hear the reasoning behind Jay Campbell and Rand McClain not using it
Like · June 13 at 8:39am
Kai Vester
Kai Vester -
Like · June 13 at 10:55am
Rand McClain
Rand McClain I prescribe HCG for secondary hypogonadism, but also for cosmetic (prevention of testicular atrophy) and fertility (avoiding Leydig cell senescence) indications. In addition, HCG acts as a TRH mimic so it can boosts one's "idle speed" a bit often times...See More
Unlike · 9 · June 13 at 12:42pm
Kai Vester
Kai Vester Would be interested to hear you hash this question out on YouTube sometime at length!!but great answer! And thank you for your service to us all
Like · 2 · June 13 at 12:50pm
Mason Woolf
Mason Woolf Rand McClain Totally understand if you don't want to answer this, but do you personally use HCG and if not why?
Like · June 13 at 1:00pm
View more replies
Nelson Vergel
Nelson Vergel OMG. Rand McClain is in the house !
Like · 8 · June 13 at 1:28pm
Lewis Wong
Lewis Wong Kelvin Guzmán
Like · 1 · June 14 at 4:41am
Kelvin Guzmán
Kelvin Guzmán Some people feel better without HCG and don't get atrophy/care about fertility.
Like · 1 · June 14 at 7:41am
John Crisler
John Crisler True, there asre some guys who just can't take any HCG without it causing problems. I wish I knew why.
Like · 2 · June 14 at 11:56am
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh If you ever figure it out let me know lol
Like · June 14 at 12:59pm
View more replies
Kelvin Guzmán
Kelvin Guzmán Who knows, someone may be on TRT+HCG and might feel better without it.
Like · June 14 at 7:42am
Gene Devine
Gene Devine Onecan't shut down a hormone like LH and think it's normal and healthy...it's not. It's there for a reason. Not to replace it with an analog is counter intuitive to all our efforts in anti aging medicine.
Like · June 14 at 8:55am
Darko Markovic
Darko Markovic There are no long term studies and we don't know this Gene . HCG is analog, not natural LH, also if someone feels better without it, we don't have a right to claim the opposite...
Like · June 14 at 10:51am
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh So for someone in my position where hcg tends to be an issue after the 4-5 week point, it's healthier to add in an AI than simply cycling the hcg? I'd suspect not.
Like · June 14 at 9:55am
John Crisler
John Crisler What kind of doses were you using?
Like · June 14 at 12:59pm
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh 100/day was the prescribed protocol. What I noticed is when I was asked to drop it I tapered off and within a week started feeling better, and the best I felt was about 2 weeks off. I am quantifying "best" by sexual health... Its weird its almost like ...See More
Like · June 14 at 1:03pm
Gene Devine
Gene Devine Darko Markovic along your line of thinking then a man shouldn't replace low testosterone serum levels with a synthetic subsitute then. It's one in the same....we don't have long term studies to claim the same as well...
Like · June 14 at 10:55am
Darko Markovic
Darko Markovic We know you're a walking dead without T But, without LH, hm... we don't..... Maybe it's perfectly healthy to be without it, just guessing.....
Like · June 14 at 11:01am
Nathaniel James
Nathaniel James Also, synthetic testosterone is bioidentical. HCG is not LH
Like · 1 · June 14 at 12:52pm
View more replies
Gene Devine
Gene Devine As Dr. John Crisler has pointed out numerous times; there are LH receptors through out our bodies including our brain and lining or our blood vessels...they are there for a reason. LH does much more then keep the testes alive when on Testosterone Therapy.
Like · June 14 at 11:04am
John Crisler
John Crisler The bottom line is countless men have reported they do better--some MUCH better--when HCG is added in. In fact, they come to us for it. This is especially true when they had it before, but can't get it any longer, for whatever reason.
Like · 3 · June 14 at 1:02pm
John Crisler
John Crisler You need LH (or HCG) to get the CHOL from the mitochondrial outer to inner membranes. Via the StAR mechanism. That may be why HPTA suppressed people (usually) feel more energy when they go on HCG.
Like · 3 · June 14 at 1:45pm · Edited
George Touliatos
George Touliatos the day after of my β-hCG SQ shot,i wake up with an erection.
Like · June 14 at 2:43pm
Rand McClain
Rand McClain Or just raise cholesterol to increase sex hormones?...
Like · 1 · June 14 at 2:57pm
View more replies
Gene Devine
Gene Devine http://www.excelmale.com/showthread.php...
The Use of HCG to Prevent / Reverse Testicular Shrinkage and Preserve Fertility
EXCELMALE.COM
Like · Remove Preview · 1 · June 14 at 2:15pm
Rand McClain
Rand McClain I appreciate your persistence in advocating what you have noted in your experience. However, and without being provocative in a negative way, by your logic, why don't you "backfill" GnRH or TRH eg when treating hypogonadism and hypothyroidism respectiv...See More
Like · 10 · June 14 at 2:51pm
John Crisler
John Crisler Because you can't supplement GnRH or TRH. It's not available.Rand McClain
Like · June 15 at 4:33am · Edited
John Crisler
John Crisler ....but we are looking for the suppressors of GnRH production, above the HPTA. They are many, and is how you could cure Low T for many.
Like · June 15 at 4:24am
View more replies
Gene Devine
Gene Devine My only point is that one can't voluntarily conduct a self-educed organ shut down like the testes and halt the production of LH and think that this is normal and healthy...it's not. We have LH receptors throughout our bodies and they are there for a r...See More
Like · June 14 at 3:09pm
Jim Brown
Jim Brown "Normal" and "healthy" are highly subjective terms.
Like · June 14 at 3:51pm
Rand McClain
Rand McClain Bingo! So is "better". And I agree, of course, that there isn't necessarily "any one way". I just want add that with medicine, one can't just jump to the "conclusion" Gene makes regarding shutting down a "natural" production. Tell that to someone with ...See More
Like · 2 · June 14 at 5:30pm
View more replies
Nelson Vergel
Nelson Vergel The reason there is such controversy is because we do not have a single study addressing HCG's effect on upstream hormones. But one will be done this year in Houston
Like · 7 · June 14 at 4:15pm
John Crisler
John Crisler We sure do. I've seen a number of them over the years. HCG and PROG, and E, for instance. Maybe someone can dig them up? BTW, this is how we know LH/HCG stimulates the P450scc enzyme, which converts CHOL to PREG...and then onto numerous pathways.
Like · June 14 at 5:51pm
Nelson Vergel
Nelson Vergel Send it to me. I have tried to dig one up.
Like · June 15 at 6:58am
Rand McClain
Rand McClain Even when we get a study, I ask that we please not lose sight of the point that people are different. Give amphetamine to someone with ADHD and they fall asleep. Give it to another and they are awake for 48 hours cleaning the house.
Like · 6 · June 14 at 5:30pm
Jay Campbell
Jay Campbell Rand McClain Hopefully also spit shining the floor and their car too. LOL.
Like · 1 · June 14 at 5:34pm
John Crisler
John Crisler The Speed/ADHD conundrum is the best doggoned example I can think of when medicine is NOT intuitive. And for sure, the variation across the population is HUGE. That is why nothing ever surprises me anymore. LOL'
Like · June 15 at 8:29am · Edited
View more replies
Justin Saya
Justin Saya I am generally on the "pro-HCG" side for *most* guys. I highly encourage it, but do not require it of my patients. It is indeed true that some men seem to do worse subjectively on HCG (for unknown and likely various reasons), however I find that the me...See More
Like · 3 · June 14 at 6:45pm
Colin Bruce
Colin Bruce I use 333mgs HCG every 3rd day post my every 3rd day IM T injection of 1150mgs roughly split over 10 injections per month. Every 4th time for an HCG dose I skip it to keep monthly use a bit lower. I have seen no increase in the size of my balls but fee...See More
Like · June 14 at 7:02pm
Rand McClain
Rand McClain John Crisler, I would certainly appreciate your sharing your work once published - thank you.
While I do appreciate your humor, I don't want it to distract from my point.
I'd like to ask: is aging normal and natural and therefore should be mimicked (I...See More
Like · 6 · June 14 at 7:18pm
John Crisler
John Crisler Dr. Saya prefers to use HCG in all the patients he can. I read their charts, on follow-up, every day. Let's make sure we understand his position.
Like · June 15 at 3:48am
John Crisler
John Crisler "Do no harm"....haven't really seen any harm from HCG. The very few who react to it badly I can, at this point, only chalk up to "someone reacts badly to everything out there."
Like · June 15 at 7:59am · Edited
View more replies
Colin Bruce
Colin Bruce HCG after a year on UK TRT really accelerated my body fat loss if this circumstantial evidence aids the discussion. Did nothing to reverse atrophy though
Like · June 14 at 7:45pm
Justin Saya
Justin Saya Rand McClain - first of all, great to see you posting my friend. I know you're busy, but it's a breath of fresh air.
Currently recruiting and plan to measure (in new TRT patients in two arms - TRT only/TRT + HCG) objectively - T, E, pregnenolone, DHEA...See More
Unlike · 6 · June 14 at 7:53pm · Edited
Jim Brown
Jim Brown Justin Saya this is where I was headed with the question I just asked John Crisler. I think it's a fantastic start for us to compare the two therapies more objectively. Will be very interested in your findings.
Like · 1 · June 14 at 8:19pm
Kai Vester
Kai Vester Same here jim! Very cutting edge
Like · June 11 at 12:35pm
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh Any experience with hcg for me has never ended well after about 4-5 weeks even if dosing was really low. I may use it cyclical in the future but for no more than 2 weeks at a time.
Like · June 11 at 1:02pm
Kapil Bhatia
Kapil Bhatia Chad Hamzeh In what way did your experience of HCG use not end well around the 02 week mark?? Could you elaborate ?? Thanks in advance ??
Like · June 13 at 5:27pm
Calvin Smith
Calvin Smith What happened with the "hcg"?
Like · June 11 at 1:54pm
Paolo Altoé
Paolo Altoé Glauber Marcius; Gustavo Medeiros
Like · 1 · June 11 at 2:21pm
John Crisler
John Crisler We must not forget there are LH receptors all over the body--they would not be there were there not a reason for them. The LH receptors in the more peripheral (emotional) centers of the brain reward us with a sense of well-being. It also takes LH to ge...See More
Unlike · 9 · June 11 at 3:57pm
John Crisler
John Crisler Dr. Mark Gordon does not regularly use HCG, but he said on stage (AMMG Orlando) a few weeks ago he does not fully suppress LH, so "it stays above 1.0".
Like · June 11 at 3:58pm
Darko Markovic
Darko Markovic How is possible not to supress LH on TRT ?
Like · 1 · June 12 at 12:56pm · Edited
David Tomić
David Tomić magic
Like · June 14 at 5:42am
John Crisler
John Crisler Nelson Vergel, didn't you just post a fascinating study on the StAR?
Like · June 11 at 3:59pm
John Crisler
John Crisler The one-and-only Dr. Eugene Shippen is masterful in his use of HCG, BTW.
Like · June 11 at 3:59pm
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh I find I can use HCG for 2-3 weeks at a time, every 2-3 months or so, with no ill effects. But like clockwork, each time I've gone past 5 weeks, even at a dose of 100 per day, it doesn't turn out well. So for my biochemistry I guess, it has a place, just not always on.
Like · 1 · June 11 at 4:00pm
Kapil Bhatia
Kapil Bhatia What I'll effects do you get around the 05 week mark??
Like · June 13 at 5:30pm
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh Lot's of acne, libido drops, high estrogen symptoms, and my labs confirm it. A friend of mine gets the same around 8 weeks, but obviously lots of people do it long term without issues.
Like · 2 · June 13 at 5:51pm
View more replies
John Crisler
John Crisler Been using LD HCG therapy since 2002, with great results. I want nearly all my TRT patients on it. "Backfilling the Pathways" is why our guys do better.
Like · 2 · June 13 at 5:45am
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh I suppose not everyone is the same in this regard. I was recently advised at defy to drop the hcg after my last labs and symptoms around the 5 week mark. As mentioned, it works great for me for a couple weeks, but seems to increase E for me by a good amount, has happened every time, whether on T or not. I think for me there is value in cycling it.
Like · June 13 at 1:09pm
Kapil Bhatia
Kapil Bhatia Chad Hamzeh what symptoms do you get around the 05 week mark???
Like · June 13 at 5:20pm
John Crisler
John Crisler As a reminder, starting TRT shuts down your LH. HCG is a mimic of LH. LH is needed all over the body, and is our natural (healthy) state of being.
Like · 4 · June 13 at 5:46am
Jason Petty
Jason Petty What is the Average Dosage
Of HCG for Guys on 100mg Cyp per week? I know everyone is Diff just wondering the Average is all
Like · 1 · June 13 at 6:30am
Kirk Yager
Kirk Yager You may find this interesting, DrCrisler.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3274763/...See More
Progesterone Synthesis in the Nervous System: Implications for…
NCBI.NLM.NIH.GOV
Like · Remove Preview · 1 · June 13 at 9:49am · Edited
Gene Devine
Gene Devine I've stated it many times; one can't shut down a hormone like LH and think it's normal and healthy...it's not!
Like · 2 · June 13 at 8:16am
Mason Woolf
Mason Woolf Seems entirely logical to me. Would love to hear the reasoning behind Jay Campbell and Rand McClain not using it
Like · June 13 at 8:39am
Kai Vester
Kai Vester -
Like · June 13 at 10:55am
Rand McClain
Rand McClain I prescribe HCG for secondary hypogonadism, but also for cosmetic (prevention of testicular atrophy) and fertility (avoiding Leydig cell senescence) indications. In addition, HCG acts as a TRH mimic so it can boosts one's "idle speed" a bit often times...See More
Unlike · 9 · June 13 at 12:42pm
Kai Vester
Kai Vester Would be interested to hear you hash this question out on YouTube sometime at length!!but great answer! And thank you for your service to us all
Like · 2 · June 13 at 12:50pm
Mason Woolf
Mason Woolf Rand McClain Totally understand if you don't want to answer this, but do you personally use HCG and if not why?
Like · June 13 at 1:00pm
View more replies
Nelson Vergel
Nelson Vergel OMG. Rand McClain is in the house !
Like · 8 · June 13 at 1:28pm
Lewis Wong
Lewis Wong Kelvin Guzmán
Like · 1 · June 14 at 4:41am
Kelvin Guzmán
Kelvin Guzmán Some people feel better without HCG and don't get atrophy/care about fertility.
Like · 1 · June 14 at 7:41am
John Crisler
John Crisler True, there asre some guys who just can't take any HCG without it causing problems. I wish I knew why.
Like · 2 · June 14 at 11:56am
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh If you ever figure it out let me know lol
Like · June 14 at 12:59pm
View more replies
Kelvin Guzmán
Kelvin Guzmán Who knows, someone may be on TRT+HCG and might feel better without it.
Like · June 14 at 7:42am
Gene Devine
Gene Devine Onecan't shut down a hormone like LH and think it's normal and healthy...it's not. It's there for a reason. Not to replace it with an analog is counter intuitive to all our efforts in anti aging medicine.
Like · June 14 at 8:55am
Darko Markovic
Darko Markovic There are no long term studies and we don't know this Gene . HCG is analog, not natural LH, also if someone feels better without it, we don't have a right to claim the opposite...
Like · June 14 at 10:51am
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh So for someone in my position where hcg tends to be an issue after the 4-5 week point, it's healthier to add in an AI than simply cycling the hcg? I'd suspect not.
Like · June 14 at 9:55am
John Crisler
John Crisler What kind of doses were you using?
Like · June 14 at 12:59pm
Chad Hamzeh
Chad Hamzeh 100/day was the prescribed protocol. What I noticed is when I was asked to drop it I tapered off and within a week started feeling better, and the best I felt was about 2 weeks off. I am quantifying "best" by sexual health... Its weird its almost like ...See More
Like · June 14 at 1:03pm
Gene Devine
Gene Devine Darko Markovic along your line of thinking then a man shouldn't replace low testosterone serum levels with a synthetic subsitute then. It's one in the same....we don't have long term studies to claim the same as well...
Like · June 14 at 10:55am
Darko Markovic
Darko Markovic We know you're a walking dead without T
But, without LH, hm... we don't..... Maybe it's perfectly healthy to be without it, just guessing.....Like · June 14 at 11:01am
Nathaniel James
Nathaniel James Also, synthetic testosterone is bioidentical. HCG is not LH
Like · 1 · June 14 at 12:52pm
View more replies
Gene Devine
Gene Devine As Dr. John Crisler has pointed out numerous times; there are LH receptors through out our bodies including our brain and lining or our blood vessels...they are there for a reason. LH does much more then keep the testes alive when on Testosterone Therapy.
Like · June 14 at 11:04am
John Crisler
John Crisler The bottom line is countless men have reported they do better--some MUCH better--when HCG is added in. In fact, they come to us for it. This is especially true when they had it before, but can't get it any longer, for whatever reason.
Like · 3 · June 14 at 1:02pm
John Crisler
John Crisler You need LH (or HCG) to get the CHOL from the mitochondrial outer to inner membranes. Via the StAR mechanism. That may be why HPTA suppressed people (usually) feel more energy when they go on HCG.
Like · 3 · June 14 at 1:45pm · Edited
George Touliatos
George Touliatos the day after of my β-hCG SQ shot,i wake up with an erection.
Like · June 14 at 2:43pm
Rand McClain
Rand McClain Or just raise cholesterol to increase sex hormones?...
Like · 1 · June 14 at 2:57pm
View more replies
Gene Devine
Gene Devine http://www.excelmale.com/showthread.php...
The Use of HCG to Prevent / Reverse Testicular Shrinkage and Preserve Fertility
EXCELMALE.COM
Like · Remove Preview · 1 · June 14 at 2:15pm
Rand McClain
Rand McClain I appreciate your persistence in advocating what you have noted in your experience. However, and without being provocative in a negative way, by your logic, why don't you "backfill" GnRH or TRH eg when treating hypogonadism and hypothyroidism respectiv...See More
Like · 10 · June 14 at 2:51pm
John Crisler
John Crisler Because you can't supplement GnRH or TRH. It's not available.Rand McClain
Like · June 15 at 4:33am · Edited
John Crisler
John Crisler ....but we are looking for the suppressors of GnRH production, above the HPTA. They are many, and is how you could cure Low T for many.
Like · June 15 at 4:24am
View more replies
Gene Devine
Gene Devine My only point is that one can't voluntarily conduct a self-educed organ shut down like the testes and halt the production of LH and think that this is normal and healthy...it's not. We have LH receptors throughout our bodies and they are there for a r...See More
Like · June 14 at 3:09pm
Jim Brown
Jim Brown "Normal" and "healthy" are highly subjective terms.
Like · June 14 at 3:51pm
Rand McClain
Rand McClain Bingo! So is "better". And I agree, of course, that there isn't necessarily "any one way". I just want add that with medicine, one can't just jump to the "conclusion" Gene makes regarding shutting down a "natural" production. Tell that to someone with ...See More
Like · 2 · June 14 at 5:30pm
View more replies
Nelson Vergel
Nelson Vergel The reason there is such controversy is because we do not have a single study addressing HCG's effect on upstream hormones. But one will be done this year in Houston
Like · 7 · June 14 at 4:15pm
John Crisler
John Crisler We sure do. I've seen a number of them over the years. HCG and PROG, and E, for instance. Maybe someone can dig them up? BTW, this is how we know LH/HCG stimulates the P450scc enzyme, which converts CHOL to PREG...and then onto numerous pathways.
Like · June 14 at 5:51pm
Nelson Vergel
Nelson Vergel Send it to me. I have tried to dig one up.
Like · June 15 at 6:58am
Rand McClain
Rand McClain Even when we get a study, I ask that we please not lose sight of the point that people are different. Give amphetamine to someone with ADHD and they fall asleep. Give it to another and they are awake for 48 hours cleaning the house.
Like · 6 · June 14 at 5:30pm
Jay Campbell
Jay Campbell Rand McClain Hopefully also spit shining the floor and their car too. LOL.
Like · 1 · June 14 at 5:34pm
John Crisler
John Crisler The Speed/ADHD conundrum is the best doggoned example I can think of when medicine is NOT intuitive. And for sure, the variation across the population is HUGE. That is why nothing ever surprises me anymore. LOL'
Like · June 15 at 8:29am · Edited
View more replies
Justin Saya
Justin Saya I am generally on the "pro-HCG" side for *most* guys. I highly encourage it, but do not require it of my patients. It is indeed true that some men seem to do worse subjectively on HCG (for unknown and likely various reasons), however I find that the me...See More
Like · 3 · June 14 at 6:45pm
Colin Bruce
Colin Bruce I use 333mgs HCG every 3rd day post my every 3rd day IM T injection of 1150mgs roughly split over 10 injections per month. Every 4th time for an HCG dose I skip it to keep monthly use a bit lower. I have seen no increase in the size of my balls but fee...See More
Like · June 14 at 7:02pm
Rand McClain
Rand McClain John Crisler, I would certainly appreciate your sharing your work once published - thank you.
While I do appreciate your humor, I don't want it to distract from my point.
I'd like to ask: is aging normal and natural and therefore should be mimicked (I...See More
Like · 6 · June 14 at 7:18pm
John Crisler
John Crisler Dr. Saya prefers to use HCG in all the patients he can. I read their charts, on follow-up, every day. Let's make sure we understand his position.
Like · June 15 at 3:48am
John Crisler
John Crisler "Do no harm"....haven't really seen any harm from HCG. The very few who react to it badly I can, at this point, only chalk up to "someone reacts badly to everything out there."
Like · June 15 at 7:59am · Edited
View more replies
Colin Bruce
Colin Bruce HCG after a year on UK TRT really accelerated my body fat loss if this circumstantial evidence aids the discussion. Did nothing to reverse atrophy though
Like · June 14 at 7:45pm
Justin Saya
Justin Saya Rand McClain - first of all, great to see you posting my friend. I know you're busy, but it's a breath of fresh air.
Currently recruiting and plan to measure (in new TRT patients in two arms - TRT only/TRT + HCG) objectively - T, E, pregnenolone, DHEA...See More
Unlike · 6 · June 14 at 7:53pm · Edited
Jim Brown
Jim Brown Justin Saya this is where I was headed with the question I just asked John Crisler. I think it's a fantastic start for us to compare the two therapies more objectively. Will be very interested in your findings.
Like · 1 · June 14 at 8:19pm
Kai Vester
Kai Vester Same here jim! Very cutting edge
Jason Sypolt
Administrator
You guys are a lot more knowledgable than I am, but I can say that I've personally benefitted tremendously with HCG. I was consistently noticing a large drop in energy level starting around 12-1pm each afternoon for the past 6 months. Dr. Crisler put me on 100 IU of HCG per day about 3 weeks ago. It's now 10-11pm before my energy/libido drop significantly. It does drop pretty quickly at about that time, but then I fall asleep easily - even when under a lot of stress. Before starting on HCG, I was feeling worn out all afternoon and then often had trouble falling/staying asleep.
In the notes of our conversation, Dr. Crisler mentioned the fact that there are LH receptors all over the body, and he also mentioned mitochondria being affected which provide energy to our cells.
In the notes of our conversation, Dr. Crisler mentioned the fact that there are LH receptors all over the body, and he also mentioned mitochondria being affected which provide energy to our cells.
Jason Sypolt
Administrator
Also,
Is there any interest in some kind of app/software to record how people feel on different medications and dosages so that the data could be shared/reported in a uniform way?
Is there any interest in some kind of app/software to record how people feel on different medications and dosages so that the data could be shared/reported in a uniform way?
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
so do you think the testosterone that comes fro HCG has a higher conversion rate to DHT ?
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