Managing E2 without the use of AI: Suggestions?

[cigpk]

I am on the following:
-40 mg test-c 2x weekly
-500 iu HCG 2x weekly

I recently discontinued my ai as it makes me feel very bad even at just .125 mg and brings my e2 to low 20s. I have a high SHBG, historically around 55-65 (15-55) and my Total T runs around 1100 with free T anywhere between 17-23 (7-26).

I am committed to remaining on the above protocol without an ai; I am on the HCG to preserve fertility and I know this dose has worked for me in the past for that purpose.

I was taking ZMA for sleep and the zinc, but I am worried because there is no copper in the ZMA and I have seen some worrisome things about upper limit for daily zinc intake and I already run at 40 mg a day between my multi and ZMA. Would ~~30-40mg of zinc per day be helpful/safe to lower e2?

Any other things that can help? I have seen mentions of boron, b6, zinc to lower e2. I already have very low BF. I'm asking because I have had high e2 symptoms with no ai in the past, specifically just some decreased erection quality and maybe some insomnia/feeling hot.

 

[HealthMan]

I am afraid no OTC supplements work well enough to significantly reduce E2. DIM, Calcium D-Glucarato, Zinc can help if you E2 is just slightly elevated. More frequent injections definitely help to lower E2. Lose body fat too. Given you are using HCG to preserve fertility nothing you can do there but reducing HCG helps lowering E2 as well.

 

[MarcoFL]

I would be more worried about taking large amounts of zinc to do what a little AI can do. I learned from experience. AI in its right place is not to be feared.

 

[cigpk]

I would be more worried about taking large amounts of zinc to do what a little AI can do. I learned from experience. AI in its right place is not to be feared.

It’s not that I’m worried about the ai, it’s that I can’t tolerate it. I’ve taken then lowest dose and it sends me to low 20s, achy joints, feeling like crap.

I just don’t like how it makes me feel.

But I agree on the zinc. I tend to stick with 30-40 mg of zinc with my total intake, with appropriate amounts of copper. Do you think that is too much?

 

[Gman86]

Any zinc in isolation is usually too much. Increasing zinc in isolation without copper is a big no no if you care about your health. Copper is an extremely underrated mineral. I can guarantee you are doing way more harm than good by taking that much zinc in isolation. A good source of information on the importance of copper is Morley Robbins. He has a ton of videos on YouTube if you want to learn more.

If I were you, I would ditch the zinc, and just start either eating beef liver, or take desiccated beef liver capsules. You mentioned boron, b6, zinc as being things that can lower E2. Beef liver has all of those in it. It’s literally nature’s multivitamin. One of the highest sources of b12 and vitamin A on the planet. One of the highest sources of copper. Has a bunch of zinc. All the B vitamins. It’s like taking a b complex. But with b complex’s the ratio’s might be out of balance. The good thing about beef liver is, Mother Nature is a million times smarter than any human making generic b complex supplements. Beef liver comes with all the b vitamins, in the perfect ratios that we’re meant to get them in. When I give people advice on health, the main things I tell them is fix their hormones, eat well, exercise, improve sleep, and eat beef liver or take beef liver capsules. It’s literally one of the best things you can do for your overall health.

Our ancestors used to eat organ meats all the time. There’s a reason why the alpha wolf gets the liver when the pack gets a kill. There’s a reason a bear usually will go for the organs first. Our current society’s diet lacking greatly in organ meats is a very underrated problem, imo. Sorry about the beef liver rant lol. But honestly, it should not only help manage estrogen a little bit, it will do wonders for your overall health. And it’s cheap. So nothing to lose by trying it.

 

[MarcoFL]

30 is probably fine. I just feel nauseated-fatigue if I take to much.

 

[cigpk]

Any zinc in isolation is usually too much. Increasing zinc in isolation without copper is a big no no if you care about your health. Copper is an extremely underrated mineral. I can guarantee you are doing way more harm than good by taking that much zinc in isolation. A good source of information on the importance of copper is Morley Robbins. He has a ton of videos on YouTube if you want to learn more.

If I were you, I would ditch the zinc, and just start either eating beef liver, or take desiccated beef liver capsules. You mentioned boron, b6, zinc as being things that can lower E2. Beef liver has all of those in it. It’s literally nature’s multivitamin. One of the highest sources of b12 and vitamin A on the planet. One of the highest sources of copper. Has a bunch of zinc. All the B vitamins. It’s like taking a b complex. But with b complex’s the ratio’s might be out of balance. The good thing about beef liver is, Mother Nature is a million times smarter than any human making generic b complex supplements. Beef liver comes with all the b vitamins, in the perfect ratios that we’re meant to get them in.

Nice, thanks for the tip.

My primary form of zinc in the past has been OptiZinc from Source naturals - 30 mg zinc with 3 mg copper combo.

I will check out beef liver though. I tend to limit my supplements anyway and get most nutrients via diet except for maybe additional magnesium and fish oil.

Also I am not saying any of these things (zinc, b6, boron) lowered e2 for me in the past, I have just seen them mentioned by others.

 

[Gman86]

Nice, thanks for the tip.

My primary form of zinc in the past has been OptiZinc from Source naturals - 30 mg zinc with 3 mg copper combo.

I will check out beef liver though. I tend to limit my supplements anyway and get most nutrients via diet except for maybe additional magnesium and fish oil.

Also I am not saying any of these things (zinc, b6, boron) lowered e2 for me in the past, I have just seen them mentioned by others.

Ya I’m the same way. Used to take a ton of supplements, but as I’ve learned more over the years, I realize taking anything in isolation isn’t the best idea, and getting these things from Whole Foods will always be optimal.

I do also take magnesium in isolation. The only other thing I take in isolation is vitamin D. Beef liver capsules cover pretty much everything else. I usually eat 3 egg yolks per day, which are also like nature’s multivitamin. I also eat 2-3 organic Brazil nuts per day to make sure I have my selenium covered. And for omega’s, I just eat sardines 2-3 times per week. I also eat organic hemp seeds, which have the omegas. But as far as epa and dha go, I get them from sardines and anything else I might eat throughout the week that has epa and dha in it.

And ya I understand. I think I’ve also heard that zinc, b6 and boron can lower E2. Anytime I do research on natural aromatase inhibitors, white button mushrooms always seem to be the most effective thing. So if you’re looking to lower E2 naturally, give those a shot.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Does E2 even give you issues? My total T is 1400 and E2 is 86 (8 - 43). Given my T is high my E2 is a bit high. The only issue E2 ever gives me if too high is back acne. Anything under 80 or so, while high, I have no issues. Too many guys treat numbers, not how they feel IMO.

 

[cigpk]

Does E2 even give you issues? My total T is 1400 and E2 is 86 (8 - 43). Given my T is high my E2 is a bit high. The only issue E2 ever gives me if too high is back acne. Anything under 80 or so, while high, I have no issues. Too many guys treat numbers, not how they feel IMO.

Insomnia, erection issues, sweaty/hot all the time.

It was in my first post at the end

 

[JimBob]

Any zinc in isolation is usually too much. Increasing zinc in isolation without copper is a big no no if you care about your health. Copper is an extremely underrated mineral. I can guarantee you are doing way more harm than good by taking that much zinc in isolation. A good source of information on the importance of copper is Morley Robbins. He has a ton of videos on YouTube if you want to learn more.

If I were you, I would ditch the zinc, and just start either eating beef liver, or take desiccated beef liver capsules. You mentioned boron, b6, zinc as being things that can lower E2. Beef liver has all of those in it. It’s literally nature’s multivitamin. One of the highest sources of b12 and vitamin A on the planet. One of the highest sources of copper. Has a bunch of zinc. All the B vitamins. It’s like taking a b complex. But with b complex’s the ratio’s might be out of balance. The good thing about beef liver is, Mother Nature is a million times smarter than any human making generic b complex supplements. Beef liver comes with all the b vitamins, in the perfect ratios that we’re meant to get them in. When I give people advice on health, the main things I tell them is fix their hormones, eat well, exercise, improve sleep, and eat beef liver or take beef liver capsules. It’s literally one of the best things you can do for your overall health.

Our ancestors used to eat organ meats all the time. There’s a reason why the alpha wolf gets the liver when the pack gets a kill. There’s a reason a bear usually will go for the organs first. Our current society’s diet lacking greatly in organ meats is a very underrated problem, imo. Sorry about the beef liver rant lol. But honestly, it should not only help manage estrogen a little bit, it will do wonders for your overall health. And it’s cheap. So nothing to lose by trying it.

Any particular brand of beef liver capsules/pills?

 

[DragonBits]

I am on the following:
-40 mg test-c 2x weekly
-500 iu HCG 2x weekly

I recently discontinued my ai as it makes me feel very bad even at just .125 mg and brings my e2 to low 20s. I have a high SHBG, historically around 55-65 (15-55) and my Total T runs around 1100 with free T anywhere between 17-23 (7-26).

So what was your E2 with no AI?

I am simple minded. If 0.125 is too much, it's easy enough to divide it in half. Even powder in a capsule, just open it up and take half.

That is what I would have done.

 

[cigpk]

So what was your E2 with no AI?

I am simple minded. If 0.125 is too much, it's easy enough to divide it in half. Even powder in a capsule, just open it up and take half.

That is what I would have done.

Thats what I was doing. Then I called empower to make sure that was ok and she said because of the filler, you may be getting 75% filler and 25% anastrazole one dose and then vice verse the second dose so it would be inconsistent.

I am open to dosing anastrazole once a week but the short half life makes that difficult

 

[cigpk]

It gets up to 40 or so with no ai.

Doesn’t seem high but I can’t get any damn sleep

 

[Gman86]

Any particular brand of beef liver capsules/pills?

This is the best brand that I’ve found so far. Main thing you want to look for is that it comes from cows that are fed grass all year round, and are grass finishes. Want to make sure they are never fed grain. And also want to make sure the desiccating process is optimal.
https://www.amazon.com/Ancestral-Supplements-Grass-Liver-Desiccated/dp/B01MSBZYQW

 

[JimBob]

This is the best brand that I’ve found so far. Main thing you want to look for is that it comes from cows that are fed grass all year round, and are grass finishes. Want to make sure they are never fed grain. And also want to make sure the desiccating process is optimal.
https://www.amazon.com/Ancestral-Supplements-Grass-Liver-Desiccated/dp/B01MSBZYQW

$32 a month??

 

[Vince Carter]

@cigpk

have you considered any of the research liquids that are available? With 3d part testing these are quite effective. The liquid would give you many smaller dosing options.
That or making your own liquid from the tablets that you have on hand.

 

[tmaxey1]

It gets up to 40 or so with no ai.

Doesn’t seem high but I can’t get any damn sleep

So if your E2 is in the 20’s you feel like crap.
If your E2 is 40 then you can’t sleep and this causes anyone to feel like crap.....

Maybe the reason you feel like crap has nothing to do with AIs or E2?

 

[Gman86]

$32 a month??

$1 a day is expensive you’re saying? I’d have to respectfully disagree. All due respect to your financial situation, of course. (No sarcasm). This supplement can drastically improve health. Highest source of b12 on the planet. One of the highest sources of heme iron on the planet. Highest source of vitamin A on the planet. Highest source of copper on the planet. Has full complex of B vitamins. High levels of CoQ10. Many other vitamins and minerals. The list goes on and on. To get all these things separately, and at these high levels, would cost a fortune. Even a multivitamin would cost $1/ day, and not be close to as effective, and most likely be filled with synthetic vitamins/ minerals, which can actually be counterproductive to health. Also multivitamins are not in the proper ratios, and can cause imbalances. Beef liver comes in the perfect ratios, that Mother Nature intended us to get all these vitamins and minerals in. $1/ day is an absolute steal, imo. Taking beef liver capsules allowed me to get rid of a host of individual supplements. So in the end, I actually save money each month, due to taking beef liver capsules. I also have raw beef liver in my freezer that I take sometimes, and is cheaper than the capsules, but is just a little leas convenient, and I tend to forget that it’s in the freezer. Capsules have been very convenient for me.

 

[cigpk]

So if your E2 is in the 20’s you feel like crap.
If your E2 is 40 then you can’t sleep and this causes anyone to feel like crap.....

Maybe the reason you feel like crap has nothing to do with AIs or E2?

Very big possibility there. I have considered this... I wish I had the $$ to run every blood test possible but that’s not an option for me unfortunately.

I have been able to lessen symptoms in the past with e2 in the mid 30s so that’s my target. If that doesn’t help then I will look elsewhere.

Managing all the different factors in trt can be crazy difficult, I wish there was an easy answer for me.