Libido: hCG vs higher T / E2

[Cataceous]

...
He says about 50% of the time when men change from weekly to more frequent injections they lose their libido. ...

There's some plausibility in this. The importance of diurnal variation in testosterone may be underrated. It's known to attenuate with age, which at least correlates with a reduction in libido. Of course, as you note, introducing much larger and longer swings in testosterone can cause various other problems—with estradiol, hematocrit, etc. This is why I favor daily use of a propionate blend.

 

[Vince]

There's some plausibility in this. The importance of diurnal variation in testosterone may be underrated. It's known to attenuate with age, which at least correlates with a reduction in libido. Of course, as you note, introducing much larger and longer swings in testosterone can cause various other problems—with estradiol, hematocrit, etc. This is why I favor daily use of a propionate blend.

I would have to agree. I think most members would like to get their HCT stable. So they no longer have to donate blood. It makes life so much easier.

 

[Stoak]

I think this is what you're referring to:

He says about 50% of the time when men change from weekly to more frequent injections they lose their libido. Of course, he also says you don't have to worry about the weekly E2 spike because you can just take more anastrozole. It seems like highpull from t-nation is using large once weekly doses on a ton of men without any AI though.

From watching some of his other videos he doesn't seem to think HCG is required with TRT unless the patient desires it for fertility or aesthetics reasons. He did a video on DHEA and Pregnenolone and also really didn't think they mattered if you testosterone levels are fixed. Especially Pregnenolone.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

From watching some of his other videos he doesn't seem to think HCG is required with TRT unless the patient desires it for fertility or aesthetics reasons. He did a video on DHEA and Pregnenolone and also really didn't think they mattered if you testosterone levels are fixed. Especially Pregnenolone.

I'm tentatively in agreement on these points. It is difficult to argue that "backfilling" hormonal pathways affected by TRT is necessary when the vast majority of satisfied men on TRT are not supplementing these hormones. It also looks like DHEA is not significantly affected in most men. Pregnenolone and progesterone may be, but the importance of serum pregnenolone is not clear and LC/MS progesterone labs include zero in their normal range for men.

 

[Hyrulewarrior1978]

There's some plausibility in this. The importance of diurnal variation in testosterone may be underrated. It's known to attenuate with age, which at least correlates with a reduction in libido. Of course, as you note, introducing much larger and longer swings in testosterone can cause various other problems—with estradiol, hematocrit, etc. This is why I favor daily use of a propionate blend.

I think this is why creams work so well for me. And I also have issues with daily cypionate injections. I’m going to try jatenzo next. It seems kind of hard to dial in a propionate blend since it’s two esters involved?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I think this is why creams work so well for me. And I also have issues with daily cypionate injections.

Do you mind sharing what issues you have with daily cypionate injections? I think you see better results with once weekly injections if I recall correctly?

 

[Cataceous]

I think this is why creams work so well for me. And I also have issues with daily cypionate injections. I’m going to try jatenzo next. It seems kind of hard to dial in a propionate blend since it’s two esters involved?

Transdermal products have the potential to provide reasonable daily variation in serum testosterone. There seems to be a fair bit of inter-individual variability in this. Some study data show fairly flat levels over 24 hours, while individuals have reported low levels after 12 hours. Absorption issues and excessive DHT production are enough of a deterrent for me to avoid this form of TRT.

It can take some work to dial in a propionate blend if you want to be fastidious about it. I started with frequent injections of longer esters, cypionate or enanthate. These let me calculate the response of free testosterone to dose. Next I used various doses of propionate alone, measuring some peak and trough values. These let me estimate the variability in serum levels provided by propionate. With this information I could predict what I would experience with propionate blends.

In actuality the average guy doesn't need this level of detail. Instead he could just hop on a default formulation of 4 parts cypionate to 3 parts propionate. After measuring some peak and trough serum levels he'd adjust the dose and ester ratio as needed.

 

[Gman86]

I have had a bit of a love/hate relationship with hCG. I was on it continuously for a long time at 100IU daily. Went off for much of the last six months and recently resumed. Almost right away, I notice an improved mood, sense of well being and maybe even libido. But, simultaneously, I noted an almost daily low grade headache and mild daily anxiety. After a few days, flare of acne.

I would love to know the neuropsychological mechanism of hCG, so I could somehow replicate it without having to use hCG! I am currently just trying to decide if the balancing act is worth it.

How many iu’s are u currently taking? Have u tried starting with say around 250iu’s per week, and titrating up slowly to see if u can find a dose that gives u the benefits without the negatives?

 

[Anonymon]

I have had a bit of a love/hate relationship with hCG. I was on it continuously for a long time at 100IU daily. Went off for much of the last six months and recently resumed. Almost right away, I notice an improved mood, sense of well being and maybe even libido. But, simultaneously, I noted an almost daily low grade headache and mild daily anxiety. After a few days, flare of acne.

I would love to know the neuropsychological mechanism of hCG, so I could somehow replicate it without having to use hCG! I am currently just trying to decide if the balancing act is worth it.

You might be able to recreate part of the libido side of it with little rhodiola hits (I use Gaia Herbs for those). Try them mostly in the morning to afternoon. I’ve found that when I don’t have those, the libido boosting aspects from the rest of my protocol go down. That alongside pregnenolone for me (400mg In the morning) but I’d start with just rhodiola if you haven’t tried it before.

 

[Fortunate]

How many iu’s are u currently taking? Have u tried starting with say around 250iu’s per week, and titrating up slowly to see if u can find a dose that gives u the benefits without the negatives?

For most of my TRT experience, I have done 100 IU daily. I have varied up and down from there, but that’s generally what I’ve taken in the past and it’s what I resumed recently.

That said, I wouldn’t rule out doing 100 IU injections maybe twice a week. I know the dose seems tiny, but I seem to be a hyper responder.

 

[Hyrulewarrior1978]

Transdermal products have the potential to provide reasonable daily variation in serum testosterone. There seems to be a fair bit of inter-individual variability in this. Some study data show fairly flat levels over 24 hours, while individuals have reported low levels after 12 hours. Absorption issues and excessive DHT production are enough of a deterrent for me to avoid this form of TRT.

It can take some work to dial in a propionate blend if you want to be fastidious about it. I started with frequent injections of longer esters, cypionate or enanthate. These let me calculate the response of free testosterone to dose. Next I used various doses of propionate alone, measuring some peak and trough values. These let me estimate the variability in serum levels provided by propionate. With this information I could predict what I would experience with propionate blends.

In actuality the average guy doesn't need this level of detail. Instead he could just hop on a default formulation of 4 parts cypionate to 3 parts propionate. After measuring some peak and trough serum levels he'd adjust the dose and ester ratio as

So soemthing like 7mg cypionate/ 5mg propionate daily as a good start? I may try this but still unless you go through a trial of each individually ordering multiple blood tests of peak and trough as you did you wouldn’t know which ester to adjust. And then as you age I’m sure the way you metabolize each ester changes like any other drug. Too many confounding factors possibly

 

[Hyrulewarrior1978]

Do you mind sharing what issues you have with daily cypionate injections? I think you see better results with once weekly injections if I recall correctly?

Yes on daily injections which is the first thing I started out doing when I first got on trt I had zero libido and couldn’t get an erection to save my life. I was about to stop trt at that point because I had never had issues with erections before and my natural test was high 300s. That’s when I switched to creams. I was on creams for a year or so then tried the injections again but this time once a week. That worked for me, but if I’m being honest, I feel best on scrotal creams. My body likes variations. Jatenzo is next and I’ll probably do good on that too because of the short half life

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Yes on daily injections which is the first thing I started out doing when I first got on trt I had zero libido and couldn’t get an erection to save my life. I was about to stop trt at that point because I had never had issues with erections before and my natural test was high 300s.

Yeah, I'm on daily cypionate injections right now and my libido is crap. I do get brief periods of libido that are better than baseline sometimes when I alter my protocol, which gives me hope. I tried to incorporate some propionate but I found the peak/crash from it too intense. I'm trying to choose between continuing to work with propionate at lower doses, try once weekly cypionate, or experiment with cream. I'm leaning towards once weekly cypionate because I have no hematocrit concerns and I'm worried that supra DHT on cream will cause increased hair loss and acne compared to cyp injections.

 

[Gman86]

For most of my TRT experience, I have done 100 IU daily. I have varied up and down from there, but that’s generally what I’ve taken in the past and it’s what I resumed recently.

That said, I wouldn’t rule out doing 100 IU injections maybe twice a week. I know the dose seems tiny, but I seem to be a hyper responder.

Ya it does seem tiny I agree, but I’ve heard of guys using pretty low doses and still getting benefits. Think a guy here uses 250iu’s/ week total and receives benefits from it. I’m currently working my way down. Using 400iu’s/ week atm. I don’t feel anything from HCG that I’m aware of, I’m only using it currently in the hopes that using it will help keep me fertile, opposed to taking time off from it and then just using it when I want to have a kid. Not sure if it even helps using it continuously. Just feel like it might, hence why im currently taking it. Just lowering my dose a bit incase the higher dose is having some negative effects on me that im just not aware is from the HCG

 

[FunkOdyssey]

... I’m only using it currently in the hopes that using it will help keep me fertile, opposed to taking time off from it and then just using it when I want to have a kid. Not sure if it even helps using it continuously. Just feel like it might, hence why im currently taking it.

If hCG desensitization / resistance is a real threat over a long enough timeline, it might actually be the safer bet to reserve hCG for periods of active babymaking.

 

[Cataceous]

So something like 7mg cypionate/ 5mg propionate daily as a good start? ...

Yes, that would be fine.

... I may try this but still unless you go through a trial of each individually ordering multiple blood tests of peak and trough as you did you wouldn’t know which ester to adjust. And then as you age I’m sure the way you metabolize each ester changes like any other drug. Too many confounding factors possibly

There are only two variables: testosterone dose and ester ratio. You can estimate a starting dose based on your previous response to cypionate. You could probably get by with measuring the serum peak at the first set of labs and titrating based on that. Some months later you might measure a trough value and just alternate from there. I've found that measurements involving propionate are noisier than ones with longer esters, but but they tend to make sense as you average in more data. I wouldn't make large changes based on single measurements.

As for change with aging: sure, it's possible. But if your metabolic clearance rate is slowing then that will affect results with any form of TRT. Mainly you would notice higher free testosterone at a given dose. I haven't seen this yet in the seven years I've been on TRT.

 

[Mastodont]

It´s funny, there are many studies that use 5000iu shots of hcg. monotherapy or in combination with clomid, if i recall one used only hcg 5000iu every two weeks, combined with cialis daily, then one was using 5000 twice per week! Also one study where the average monotherapy dose was 2000iu, seems more reasonable. Has anyone tried the 5000iu bolus, been curious but never had the balls to do it. There is some logic behind doing a very large bolus very infrequently, it could provide a bounceback effect that would carry over to the next one, and maybe there would not be as much desensitization?

 

[Willyt]

I think there's another possibility: hCG may improve libido by introducing some variability to your hormone levels. I also have the mental flatness you're describing on daily cypionate. I've seen many reports of testosterone propionate resolving those complaints while improving libido and will be testing that soon.

I have been experimenting with propionate and propionate-enanthate blends, both with plenty of daily variability. Neither has done anything for libido. Daily variation has not been the answer for me on that front (nor has top of range amounts). The blend has plenty of other benefits though - better energy, improved sleep, less water retention, etc.

@Cataceous has cited dopamine deficiency as possible cause of low libido. I still think that is most likely culprit for many aging men including myself.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I have been experimenting with propionate and propionate-enanthate blends, both with plenty of daily variability. Neither has done anything for libido. Daily variation has not been the answer for me on that front (nor has top of range amounts). The blend has plenty of other benefits though - better energy, improved sleep, less water retention, etc.

@Cataceous has cited dopamine deficiency as possible cause of low libido. I still think that is most likely culprit for many aging men including myself.

Have you ever tried cypionate in once weekly doses? That seems to be a good option for improved libido relative to high frequency cypionate injections. There's also cream -- I forget if you've tried it. DHT seems to crank up dopamine levels in many areas of the brain.

 

[Willyt]

Have you ever tried cypionate in once weekly doses? That seems to be a good option for improved libido relative to high frequency cypionate injections. There's also cream -- I forget if you've tried it. DHT seems to crank up dopamine levels in many areas of the brain.

I did E3.5 days with Cyp although that was at very beginning of my TRT journey at higher dose. Things went to shit after honeymoon period. I am following the 1x per week threads with interest nonetheless. It would be fun to try the 1x protocol at lower dose similar to what I am using now for daily injection(total of 50-60mg per week).

Like many here, I had a rather unpleasant experience on cream. Not sure if it was too much DHT or what. I still think viable strategy might involve steady base of Enan/Cyp injections with small amount of cream applied daily for moderate DHT bump. Haven't seen many success stories though on injections + cream although it makes sense on paper.