Questions about HCG, Arimidex, and Their Effects

[DixieWrecked]

Thank you Vince and thank you JMZWY. Appreciate both of you guys. Still contemplating what to do. I am inclined to bail on the HCG just because injecting more is scary to me at this point. With HCG I act and feel like a bitch (pardon my language) and my penis is numb. Both of which are scary. Its informative to see my numbers when I feel like crap.

I will say this. My strength in the gym has gone up substantially with HCG but I don't look as hard. Gym performance is not even close being a priority when your penis is numb though haha.

 

[jmzwy]

Your performance at the gym, depending on what types of exercises you are doing, and in addition to hormone levels, could also be related to the increased weight you might be carrying on your body. Even 10 pounds of water weight can have a significant effect on your leverages if you are squatting or dead-lifting. It's why power lifters tend to have a lot of fat in addition to muscle. Pulling a deadlift off the floor is simply going to work better if there is more weight behind the bar.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

I got my results back today. As I suspected my E2 was elevated. I'm not surprised by this. I am a creature of habit and have a very structured life. So I am very in tune with how I feel. Anyway here are my results from Monday. Range for E2 is 8 - 35.

With HCG
TT: 1021
FT: 24
Sensitive E2: 54

Without
TT: 950
FT: 25
Sensitive E2: 22

This is at the trough. My E2 must be sky high at peak. Any new recommendations?

Glad you got those results to go on. Remains to be seen what will work for you for the long haul. Maybe just discontinuing HCG will take care of it. Hope it's that simple! For some guys, waiting out higher E2 also works out. For me it didn't. I waited it out through multiple dose reductions, but finally needed an AI. And I also tried to go without HCG...

Regarding @jmzy post, it's a balancing act, and trial and error is king. I too believe even at small doses, HCG and even mildly elevated E2 causes me some water retention. I went through the whole dose lowering and changing dose frequency thing even as often as ED, but remained kind of caught between a rock and a hard place in terms of trying to reduce or eliminate taking any one drug. I've reached the lower end of tolerable T cyp dosage at 24mg EOD. Without HCG, testicles shink, retract and become painful during sex. Without anastrozole, I get E2 symptoms at above about 30. So, have found the best balance with quite low doses: T cyp 24mg, HCG 180iu, anastrozole 0.075mg all EOD. This definitely would not work for guys that need higher dose just to get Free T high enough.

 

[Vince]

Start with a very low dose of HCG, 100 mg twice a week. See what the minimum you need to keep your testicles full. I know when I first started trt, Nelson was injecting 500mg of HCG twice a week, now I believe he's using 250 mg twice a week. Find what works best for you.

 

[DixieWrecked]

This is what I am leaning towards doing and would like your feedback.
Ceasing usage of the HCG for the time being. Letting it clear from my system. Possibly retrying in the future once I'm more stable. My last dose was yesterday. In addition I am thinking of dosing 6-12mg of Aromasin to neutralize and clear out some of this E2. I'm not interested in using this long term. I just want the suicidal AI to do its thing one time since I'm quitting the HCG.

Thoughts?

 

[Deleted member 16042]

discontinuing HCG seems reasonable to me. I don't know about the aromasin though, I'd be careful to not crash E2 with an AI. Crashed E2 can be worse than high.

 

[fifty]

Be careful trying to fix a drug problem with more drugs.

 

[Gman86]

For you guys that experienced libido increase and strength in the gym on HCG, do you guys think you would be able to get the same benefits from just increasing T levels a little bit?

 

[Tman]

Blackhawk

Taking because of symptoms of high E2 which which I mentioned in the original post. Labs 2 weeks prior to HCG were this
TT: 950
FT: 25
Sensitive E2: 22
SHBG: 36

I do not have labs since adding in the HCG 2 weeks ago.

Taking the HCG because the doc recommended it and because my TRT honeymoon phase had faded. Perhaps I'm chasing the dragon.

While we're all different, I will tell you that .125 ai drops my estrogen level approximately 50 points.

 

[DixieWrecked]

For you guys that experienced libido increase and strength in the gym on HCG, do you guys think you would be able to get the same benefits from just increasing T levels a little bit?

Estrogen has huge benefits for weightlifters like powerlifters, strongmen, or bodybuilders prior to a show. It is very beneficial for strength gains and hypertrophy but can make you look bloated. That's why bodybuilders utilize AIs and compounds that do not aromatize during competition while powerlifters have moon face during their competitions. If you notice my Estrogen went up by about 250% in two weeks time. I'm speculating that I'd have to take WAY more T to get that level of Estrogen increase.

 

[Gman86]

Estrogen has huge benefits for weightlifters like powerlifters, strongmen, or bodybuilders prior to a show. It is very beneficial for strength gains and hypertrophy but can make you look bloated. That's why bodybuilders utilize AIs and compounds that do not aromatize during competition while powerlifters have moon face during their competitions. If you notice my Estrogen went up by about 250%. I'm speculating that I'd have to take alot more T to get those kind of numbers.

In theory maybe. But even though E2 increased by 250%, I doubt it caused a linear increase in strength. It’s most likely a case of diminishing returns. For instance, I doubt if you doubled your E2 again, you would continue to see drastic gains in strength. If you gained another 10lbs of water, I doubt it would translate much to continued strength in the gym. The strength gains were most likely from a mix of increase T, increase E2, and increased water retention. But putting on water is definitely going to have its limits when it comes to strength. Even if a lot of the strength came from the water retention, I bet you could of gotten the same strength increase from half of the E2 increase, and half of the water retention. Therefore it probably would be easy to replicate both the strength, and hopefully the libido, increases from just upping T a bit. obviously E2 would increase as well, and would give the water retention effect to a certain degree. Unless HCG is increasing strength and libido through other pathways, like increasing downstream hormones, and causing strength and libido to increase through things like DHEA, pregnenolone or progesterone, theoretically I don’t see how increasing T a bit couldn’t result in similar strength and libido increases. I have no clue if it would or not, I’m just saying if I were in either one of your shoes I would at least try before dismissing the option.

 

[DixieWrecked]

In theory maybe. But even though E2 increased by 250%, I doubt it caused a linear increase in strength. It’s most likely a case of diminishing returns. For instance, I doubt if you doubled your E2 again, you would continue to see drastic gains in strength. If you gained another 10lbs of water, I doubt it would translate much to continued strength in the gym. The strength gains were most likely from a mix of increase T, increase E2, and increased water retention. But putting on water is definitely going to have its limits when it comes to strength. Even if a lot of the strength came from the water retention, I bet you could of gotten the same strength increase from half of the E2 increase, and half of the water retention. Therefore it probably would be easy to replicate both the strength, and hopefully the libido, increases from just upping T a bit. obviously E2 would increase as well, and would give the water retention effect to a certain degree. Unless HCG is increasing strength and libido through other pathways, like increasing downstream hormones, and causing strength and libido to increase through things like DHEA, pregnenolone or progesterone, theoretically I don’t see how increasing T a bit couldn’t result in similar strength and libido increases. I have no clue if it would or not, I’m just saying if I were in either one of your shoes I would at least try before dismissing the option.

Its possible! It would be a good experiment. I'll will probably fiddle with different things for quite some time before I decide everything is perfect. You are absolutely correct that strength gains do not have a linear correlation with E levels and I did not intend to send that message. I'd start popping birth control pills right now if that were the case (not really). But, there is no theory about it, Estrogen is beneficial for performance and serious strength athletes take advantage of this fact when they design their programs. Here's a good article with dozens of studies backing it. Effect of Estrogen on Musculoskeletal Performance and Injury Risk

I'm not condoning sending your Estrogen through your roof. Just seemed on topic.

 

[Gman86]

Its possible! It would be a good experiment. I'll will probably fiddle with different things for quite some time before I decide everything is perfect. You are absolutely correct that strength gains do not have a linear correlation with E levels and I did not intend to send that message. I'd start popping birth control pills right now if that were the case (not really). But, there is no theory about it, Estrogen is beneficial for performance and serious strength athletes take advantage of this fact when they design their programs. Here's a good article with dozens of studies backing it. Effect of Estrogen on Musculoskeletal Performance and Injury Risk

I'm not condoning sending your Estrogen through your roof. Just seemed on topic.

Haha nah you didn’t give that message, I get what you’re saying. E2 absolutely has beneficial properties when it comes to building muscle, there’s no doubt about it. Messing with HCG and ai’s is tough, they really complicate things. I honestly think it’s reasonable that increasing T a bit can possibly give both the benefits that you guys were getting from HCG. I personally was on HCG for 5 years, and dropped it at the beginning of this year as an experiment. I honestly haven’t noticed any negatives from stopping it, not even testicular atrophy. Idk how, but my testicles are the same size as when I was on HCG.

 

[ALouis84]

I have been reading this forum obsessively for the last few weeks. What an incredible group of guys you all are.

I have only been on TRT for about 3 months so I am figuring things out. At 2 months my bloodwork looked good and I decided to add HCG because the doc recommended it. So I have been on T+HCG for about 2 weeks. I felt like my E2 was getting higher (ED & low libido, not alpha feeling, round face) so I popped .125 of Arimidex. I felt good for about 8 hours and then I quickly sank into anxiety, body aches, trouble breathing, low mood. I even bailed on my workout early. I literally was worried for my health and considered bailing on TRT in general. I woke up this morning (48 hours since dose) and I am feeling almost good. I am currently dosing the T+HCG twice a week. Total weekly dosage is 180mg + 1000iu.

Questions:

Will dosing more frequently hypothetically decrease E2 even with HCG being involved?

Has anyone experienced such drastic side effects from Arimidex?

I take .5 Anastrozole after every injection. I usually do two shots a week so I take 1mg Anastrozole a week. I get 30 1mg tablets a month and just cut them in half when I get get them so they are ready. Yes. Arimidex can raise T because less will convert to Estrogen. I’m also on HCG twice a week 350iu, total of 700 units.

 

[DixieWrecked]

I reduced my T dosage and increased frequency and my numbers are looking better. I'm feeling great.

protocol:
TC = 40mg eod
HCG = 300iu eod
DHEA = 25mg ed
pregnenolone = 30mg eod

bloodwork:
TT = 1254
FT = 29.2
Sensetive e2 = 40.1