Left ventricle Hypertrophy

[S1W]

Do you do your injections IM or subq??

SubQ - I use the fatty area around my hips. While sitting on the toilet, I find the top of the femur and the hip bone (greater tronchater and iliac crest). If you put the tip of your index finger on the GT and the tip of your thumb on the IC, the tip of your middle finger should be back between them in a fatty area in your upper butt/hip. That is what I target. I pinch some skin and inject.

With dailies, I rotate four sites in that area. Right side towards the back, right side a little forward, left side a little forward, left side towards the back.

With the 30g 5/16 .3cc pins, it's fast, easy, and painless.

I think Vince and Vince Carter (both frequent posters here and knowledgeable guys) do IM in the delts and I believe they also do dailies. So IM works too.

So whatever works for you - the dose/frequency will have a far bigger impact than IM vs SubQ IMHO.

 

[drkelp]

Hibiscus has consider lowering bp. Takes a couple weeks to take effect (?) Drink plenty of water too

 

[xqfq]

Hibiscus has consider lowering bp. Takes a couple weeks to take effect (?) Drink plenty of water too

Hibiscus tea contains an ACE inhibitor. I would recommend the poster take pharma BP meds if possible. Something like hibiscus could be okay if he had no access to medication or wasn’t willing or able to see a doctor for medication.

 

[charile12]

I have not posted in a long time. But I get a summary email and look at threads with topics of interest.

Op given some good advice. Esp by the guy who said you need to control blood pressure.
I've been on trt for 2 years. Something happened 2 years ago that broke me down and at that time was diagnosed with hypogonadism and that started my trt. In hindsight what I think may have triggered my breakdown was a heart issue.

So I've had heart palpitations that I blamed on e2, injections etc (you know all the newbies thoughts we get)
So cardiologist ran every other damn test but never did an echo. Even did a CT angio with showed zero plaque. So I ask for an echo this past summer and I found out I have mild dilated cardiomyopathy. LV dilated but I did not have an enlarged heart.
My ejection fraction was 45% confirmed by a cardiac MRI because I needed it confirmed.

I've been in daily Cialis for a year. I believe that 2 years ago during the "breakdown" my cardiomyopathy was worse. And the daily Cialis must have helped my heart get better. So 45% was the only reading I got this past summer.

So thankful I have access to the best drs near NYC. My cardiologist thank good said the trt did not do this.
He started me on the classic treatment for heart failure in my case pre-heart failure. He gave me an ARB (some use an ACE instead of ARB) and a BB. ( Low dose candesartan and metoprolol)

After 3 months my ejection fraction is up to 55% and my heart is stronger.
And guess what my heart paps which were PVCs are so much better. Almost gone.

That's my story hope it helps.

So I take between 110-120 week of t divided in 2 injections. Daily Cialis (am horny often and love to have a dick at ready) also helps my heart, ARB and a beta blocker.
I take resvetrol 2x a week , d3, daily multi vitamin, allopurinol. And 1g vit c a couple times a week.
Also take 1g if metformin at dinner.
I feel very good.
BTW am 42. And my blood pressure was always elevated at drs visit for decades but always resisted meds.

 

[xqfq]

I have not posted in a long time. But I get a summary email and look at threads with topics of interest.

Op given some good advice. Esp by the guy who said you need to control blood pressure.
I've been on trt for 2 years. Something happened 2 years ago that broke me down and at that time was diagnosed with hypogonadism and that started my trt. In hindsight what I think may have triggered my breakdown was a heart issue.

So I've had heart palpitations that I blamed on e2, injections etc (you know all the newbies thoughts we get)
So cardiologist ran every other damn test but never did an echo. Even did a CT angio with showed zero plaque. So I ask for an echo this past summer and I found out I have mild dilated cardiomyopathy. LV dilated but I did not have an enlarged heart.
My ejection fraction was 45% confirmed by a cardiac MRI because I needed it confirmed.

I've been in daily Cialis for a year. I believe that 2 years ago during the "breakdown" my cardiomyopathy was worse. And the daily Cialis must have helped my heart get better. So 45% was the only reading I got this past summer.

So thankful I have access to the best drs near NYC. My cardiologist thank good said the trt did not do this.
He started me on the classic treatment for heart failure in my case pre-heart failure. He gave me an ARB (some use an ACE instead of ARB) and a BB. ( Low dose candesartan and metoprolol)

After 3 months my ejection fraction is up to 55% and my heart is stronger.
And guess what my heart paps which were PVCs are so much better. Almost gone.

That's my story hope it helps.

So I take between 110-120 week of t divided in 2 injections. Daily Cialis (am horny often and love to have a dick at ready) also helps my heart, ARB and a beta blocker.
I take resvetrol 2x a week , d3, daily multi vitamin, allopurinol. And 1g vit c a couple times a week.
Also take 1g if metformin at dinner.
I feel very good.
BTW am 42. And my blood pressure was always elevated at drs visit for decades but always resisted meds.

Thank you for sharing your story. I’m wondering, what was your blood pressure before your hypertension treatment, e.g. when you were first diagnosed with the 45% ejection fraction?

 

[charile12]

Thank you for sharing your story. I’m wondering, what was your blood pressure before your hypertension treatment, e.g. when you were first diagnosed with the 45% ejection fraction?

Now that am on trt I track everything. Never really checked BP.
I remember when I went to drs it was always near 130 over 90. Sometimes more. Dismissed as white glove syndrome.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Reference to ventricular hypertrophy by Nick Sakas Phd, DVM, and working towards MD, on (sorry) Jay's youtube channel. He had specific reason to talk about telemisartan. If you go the medication route I recommend you listen to this. Telemisartan at about 1 hr 4 min. Apparently there are more advantages to this particular med than just BP control.

 

[xqfq]

Now that am on trt I track everything. Never really checked BP.
I remember when I went to drs it was always near 130 over 90. Sometimes more. Dismissed as white glove syndrome.

Based on my reading, anything over 140/90 for sustained periods (years+) can cause LVH / issues. So if you were sometimes around 140/90 you would be at risk. I am very happy to hear you are well taken care of now!

Reference to ventricular hypertrophy by Nick Sakas Phd, DVM, and working towards MD, on (sorry) Jay's youtube channel. He had specific reason to talk about telemisartan. If you go the medication route I recommend you listen to this. About hr 1:04

I have read that Chlortalidone may be good for LVH reduction:

"Chlortalidone is used to treat left ventricular hypertrophy in the heart; it works chiefly by lowering blood pressure, and thereby reducing systemic vascular resistance. There is evidence that chlortalidone is superior to hydrochlorothiazide for reducing the mass of the left ventricle of the heart in persons with enlargement of the left ventricle of the heart.[21] Chlortalidone is superior to angiotensin converting enzyme Inhibitors or angiotensin II receptor blockers for inducing regression of enlargement of the left ventricle, which is the main pumping chamber of the heart.[22]" - Wikipedia

But I believe anything that normalizes blood pressure will help significantly. Maybe some drugs do even more than that somehow.

 

[Codster951]

Hibiscus tea contains an ACE inhibitor. I would recommend the poster take pharma BP meds if possible. Something like hibiscus could be okay if he had no access to medication or wasn’t willing or able to see a doctor for medication.

So i had an app. with my Doctor we discussed it an he put me on lisinopri, i am scared of these meds but i am following my docs orders

 

[charile12]

So i had an app. with my Doctor we discussed it an he put me on lisinopri, i am scared of these meds but i am following my docs orders

You will be fine. It is as an ACE an annoying side affect is a dry cough. If you develop that, they can give you an ARB type instead.

 

[Wilson7]

ACEi are generally best for BP issues in guys that are athletic. HCZ is a diuretic, while it reduces volume and thus pressure, if you're on HRT HCZ may exaggerate viscosity (HCT). My question for Codster is, do you resistance train, aggressively? Some concentric hypertrophy is normal, the echo will give you more information, ideally a cardiac MRI would be preferred as echos are not the best to assess LA dimensions. Best way to document anything on a daily basis is with an Emay monitor. Robot Check If you use it correctly it will give you a nice lead II, you can save the 30 sec strips as PDFs for your doctor. 24 hr holters only give a snap shot of a particular time period, you many have nothing during that time and lead to false assumptions. There is pathologic and physiologic LV hypertrophy, physiologic is in response to training, testing will differentiate between the two. Do you have family Hx of cardiomyopathy? Palpitations can come from anything, stress, overtraining, lack of sleep, sometimes we have no idea what causes them. There are atrial and ventricular ectopies, some people have many of them (thousands a day) and they are benign, in the presence of heart disease however they could lead to more serious problems (a-fit or V-Tach/fib, respectively). A stress echo, cardiac MRI and CT angiogram would pretty much rule out anything serious. Get a good automated BP arm cuff, calibrate it to a manual cuff at the docs office and watch the BP, lower is better (120/70). 100 mg/wk of TC is not much and there is nothing in the lit that would suggest it could lead to any sort of cardiomyopathy. High doses of synthetics combined with stimulants, very different story. Before you stress out and start changing anything, find out if there are any underlying pathologies. If not, reduce caffeine, alcohol and stress, get plenty of sleep, and keep a lid on BP. If they continue to bother you, a low dose of proprananolol throughout the day may help, esp after workout to get your HR back down talk to your doc about it. Citrulline base 3 - 4 g per day is also helpful for lower BP. Just my non-medical opinion, based on my own experiences.

 

[bixt]

So whatever works for you - the dose/frequency will have a far bigger impact than IM vs SubQ IMHO.

With respect, thats not true for everyone. Search for "IM subq levels" on other popular testosterone related forums\groups and you will find the posts. There are a few individuals who have posted bloods showing almost half the TT levels with subq compared to IM bloods, all else being the same. Anecdotally, there are tons of users who can only "feel" IM effects and not SubQ, but lets leave that aside and stick to bloods.

We don't know why this is. Perhaps its related to thyroid the same way creams\gels don't work for some.

 

[Wilson7]

With respect, thats not true for everyone. Search for "IM subq levels" on other popular testosterone related forums\groups and you will find the posts. There are a few individuals who have posted bloods showing almost half the TT levels with subq compared to IM bloods, all else being the same. Anecdotally, there are tons of users who can only "feel" IM effects and not SubQ, but lets leave that aside and stick to bloods.

We don't know why this is. Perhaps its related to thyroid the same way creams\gels don't work for some.

I use a shallow IM, 27 g 1/2" upper glute. You could call it sub-Q, if you're lean it is a shallow IM. Works very well, no scar tissue or pain with inj. Blood levels same as deeper IM.

 

[DannyP]

Hello everyone, I’m a 34yr male and have been on Trt for about 4 years 100mg/week cyp. I recently have been heart palpitations and thought it was due to my hematocrit being high. Long story short I was recommended to a cardiologist and they just tested me and said I have a slightly enlarged heart with enlarged left ventricle!!!!! Can Trt cause this? Definitely has me worried! Also I have never taken any other steroids besides Trt.

About 6 years on TRT, hematocrit runs high, heart is not enlarged. Uncontrolled hypertension causes enlarged left ventricles according to everything I've read. Do you have high blood pressure?

 

[Wilson7]

IMO, hypertension in combo with androgens exacerbates the negative effects on the LV, both structure and function.

 

[Codster951]

ACEi are generally best for BP issues in guys that are athletic. HCZ is a diuretic, while it reduces volume and thus pressure, if you're on HRT HCZ may exaggerate viscosity (HCT). My question for Codster is, do you resistance train, aggressively? Some concentric hypertrophy is normal, the echo will give you more information, ideally a cardiac MRI would be preferred as echos are not the best to assess LA dimensions. Best way to document anything on a daily basis is with an Emay monitor. Robot Check If you use it correctly it will give you a nice lead II, you can save the 30 sec strips as PDFs for your doctor. 24 hr holters only give a snap shot of a particular time period, you many have nothing during that time and lead to false assumptions. There is pathologic and physiologic LV hypertrophy, physiologic is in response to training, testing will differentiate between the two. Do you have family Hx of cardiomyopathy? Palpitations can come from anything, stress, overtraining, lack of sleep, sometimes we have no idea what causes them. There are atrial and ventricular ectopies, some people have many of them (thousands a day) and they are benign, in the presence of heart disease however they could lead to more serious problems (a-fit or V-Tach/fib, respectively). A stress echo, cardiac MRI and CT angiogram would pretty much rule out anything serious. Get a good automated BP arm cuff, calibrate it to a manual cuff at the docs office and watch the BP, lower is better (120/70). 100 mg/wk of TC is not much and there is nothing in the lit that would suggest it could lead to any sort of cardiomyopathy. High doses of synthetics combined with stimulants, very different story. Before you stress out and start changing anything, find out if there are any underlying pathologies. If not, reduce caffeine, alcohol and stress, get plenty of sleep, and keep a lid on BP. If they continue to bother you, a low dose of proprananolol throughout the day may help, esp after workout to get your HR back down talk to your doc about it. Citrulline base 3 - 4 g per day is also helpful for lower BP. Just my non-medical opinion, based on my own experiences.

Thanks for the reply, i do NOT have an family members with any heart problems,i do have a very stressful job and my sleep schedual is horrible due to my roatating shift work. I stopped drinking energy drinks and started to drink more water. i do weight train 5 days a week very hard, i also take an SSRI (Zoloft) for anxiety and deppresion. I do struggle with high hematocrit and high BP roughly 140/90 and have been prescibed losonipril. I am honestly scared to take the damn drug.

 

[xqfq]

Hypertension causes LVH, full stop. Something like 48% of people with stage one hypertension develop LVH 5 years later.

OP, look..I don’t want to me a fear monger here but LVH left untreated can *kill you*. The heart gradually reduces in its ability to pump blood, and the heart muscles themselves stop working as well (fatal rhythms).

Normalizing your BP is the best shot you have at regression. Without BP meds or a reduction in BP in some other fashion you will probably eventually develop heart failure and die.

I would take the meds, and take more meds, and more meds until your BP is perfect. Then you can go hunting for why this happened in the first place. And maybe discontinue meds in time.

Not taking BP meds and not fixing your BP when you’ve got hypertension and diagnosed LVH is a death wish.

 

[charile12]

Thanks for the reply, i do NOT have an family members with any heart problems,i do have a very stressful job and my sleep schedual is horrible due to my roatating shift work. I stopped drinking energy drinks and started to drink more water. i do weight train 5 days a week very hard, i also take an SSRI (Zoloft) for anxiety and deppresion. I do struggle with high hematocrit and high BP roughly 140/90 and have been prescibed losonipril. I am honestly scared to take the damn drug.

I also did not want to take BP meds. Hence why I got problems now.

Now I never want to stop the 2 meds drs gave me as they have made my heart stronger. Also Dr can always add a beta blocker which actually can help with anxiety as well.
I take my pressure now at home and average is 110/70.

 

[Codster951]

I also did not want to take BP meds. Hence why I got problems now.

Now I never want to stop the 2 meds drs gave me as they have made my heart stronger. Also Dr can always add a beta blocker which actually can help with anxiety as well.
I take my pressure now at home and average is 110/70.

Wow that’s amazing, yes I have been taking losonipril for three days now @5mg he gave me 10mg but I just wanted to see how my body reacted. I went and had my BP checks at rite aid and still was 132/90 although this was 15 min after a workout

 

[xqfq]

Wow that’s amazing, yes I have been taking losonipril for three days now @5mg he gave me 10mg but I just wanted to see how my body reacted. I went and had my BP checks at rite aid and still was 132/90 although this was 15 min after a workout

My man, buy a home BP monitor. They’re cheap and you should have one. The monitors at stores (the machines) are not reliable!