Heart issues 10 years in (Left Ventricle Hypertrophy)

[GA8314]

It was in my very first post....53% hemo. I meant HCT.

Nothing wrong with a blood draw I suppose but I'm pretty certain it's not your issue. Sometimes stress or atypical reasons can cause transient cardiomyopathies. I'm not a cardiologist, so I would just follow up with your cardiologist on this. Meantime I would not personally discontinue TRT or worry excessively, especially if you are symptom free in the setting of a high level of physical activity.

Good luck and sorry for being a bit impatient.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Discontinuing TRT suddenly is almost always a mistake. There are ways to transition off therapy, but at this point I believe it would be remarkably premature for you to make that decision.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I would try to keep your hematocrit under 54 while keeping an eye on your iron and ferritin. Donating more frequently than every two months can decrease ferritin too much and make you tired. But even if you have to, eating red meat or taking a good iron (and vitamin C) supplement for a short time can compensate for the decreased ferritin.

Left ventricle hypertrophy is common in athletes, people who exercise, and obviously androgen users. I have had this since 1993 and i am still around.





Your ejection fraction can get better with proper blood pressure and hematocrit management. I would also take Vince's advise about Co-Q10 for sure!


The Heart of Trained Athletes

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I take losatan (cheap generic ARB)

Effects of Losartan on Left Ventricular Hypertrophy and Fibrosis in Patients With Nonobstructive Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy

 

[magnus68]

Nelson, My Cardiologist seems to blame the Test and hgh replacement. And pretty much told me if I continue I will get worse. My Hypogonadism and Panhypiopituitary is suspected to come from a head injury I sustained in a car wreck in high school. I have been on replacement for over 15 years with the test and 6 with the hgh. I know from prior experience that I feel like garbage when I have had to come off but I fear that if I stop It will return. But on the other hand I dont want to damage my heart. either, Very confused. I will definately start the co Q and L Carnitine. This board is the only place I have seen good info. I am not an abuser so i cant get any relavent info on bodybuilding boards for example

 

[ERO]

Honestly, your Cardiologist is not well informed on this. Large doses of Test (think bodybuilders on AAS) can cause heart issues - But by definition, you are on Testosterone Replacement Therapy - you are on a dose that is in the normal physiological range, not some crazy large dose that would potentially cause issues.

Stopping TRT cold turkey is almost never the right option and it is going to cause a ton of issues for you - all bad.

 

[magnus68]

Honestly, your Cardiologist is not well informed on this. Large doses of Test (think bodybuilders on AAS) can cause heart issues - But by definition, you are on Testosterone Replacement Therapy - you are on a dose that is in the normal physiological range, not some crazy large dose that would potentially cause issues.

Stopping TRT cold turkey is almost never the right option and it is going to cause a ton of issues for you - all bad.

Yes he is not. I am going to a different one next week.

 

[magnus68]

Follow up to :"10 years in" was sent to an Hematologist by my Cardiologist to check my Hematocrit and hopefully do a phlebotomy to lower my HCT because it is too high for a donation. All I got was a lecture stating that the Testosterone and HGH are responsible for all of my heart issues. He says he will test me for true primary polycythemia or hemochromotosis with blood work because I mentioned that at my replacement dose this should not be happening so fast. Doc said I should discontinue replacement or expect permanent heart problems even failure! I guess I need to come off after 15 years.....Is there ANY PCT possible at this point? I need find Docs that are informed. In Naples FL area

 

[CoastWatcher]

Follow up to :"10 years in" was sent to an Hematologist by my Cardiologist to check my Hematocrit and hopefully do a phlebotomy to lower my HCT because it is too high for a donation. All I got was a lecture stating that the Testosterone and HGH are responsible for all of my heart issues. He says he will test me for true primary polycythemia or hemochromotosis with blood work because I mentioned that at my replacement dose this should not be happening so fast. Doc said I should discontinue replacement or expect permanent heart problems even failure! I guess I need to come off after 15 years.....Is there ANY PCT possible at this point? I need find Docs that are informed. In Naples FL area

Contact Defy Medical. Experts in androgen replacement. The telemed model works for many members of the Forum.

 

[bigfred32]

Relax my man. I was diagnosed with HBP which ultimately led to LVH although I don't recall the percentage and measurements of the enlargement. Im in my 50's and this was later determined to be work related so workers comp covered it.
I've been on TRT for several years, physically fit albeit alittle over weight, use losartan for HBP, work out regularity and cardio atleast 5 to 6 days a week. I'm active outdoors, hunt, fish, motorcycle ride and have sex like a teen....lol
I said all that to let you know that unless you find a dr that says you need immediate action and rushes you to the hospital, sit back and enjoy your life.
I had an enlarged heart probably for several years and didn't know it. LVH is much less dangerous and more normal than you think, if it was RVH then I would worry. TRT NEVER came into question and NEVER played into the equation by any of the doctors I saw or currently see.
Keep your HCT under control, take your HBP meds, eat your veggies and say your prayers like a good little hulkster and you'll be fine.
Personally I would rather have 10 years of quality of life than 15 years of feeling miserable if that was a choice.

 

[magnus68]

Relax my man. I was diagnosed with HBP which ultimately led to LVH although I don't recall the percentage and measurements of the enlargement. Im in my 50's and this was later determined to be work related so workers comp covered it.
I've been on TRT for several years, physically fit albeit alittle over weight, use losartan for HBP, work out regularity and cardio atleast 5 to 6 days a week. I'm active outdoors, hunt, fish, motorcycle ride and have sex like a teen....lol
I said all that to let you know that unless you find a dr that says you need immediate action and rushes you to the hospital, sit back and enjoy your life.
I had an enlarged heart probably for several years and didn't know it. LVH is much less dangerous and more normal than you think, if it was RVH then I would worry. TRT NEVER came into question and NEVER played into the equation by any of the doctors I saw or currently see.
Keep your HCT under control, take your HBP meds, eat your veggies and say your prayers like a good little hulkster and you'll be fine.
Personally I would rather have 10 years of quality of life than 15 years of feeling miserable if that was a choice.

Thanks buddy. Its good to hear this!!

 

[GEORGE TOULIATOS]

https://anabolic.org/changes-in-the-heart-as-a-result-of-aas-abuse/

 

[GEORGE TOULIATOS]

Heart muscle possesses also striated fibers.
Therefore myocardium reacts both in resistance training and AAS,since androgen receptors are located in several tissues.
LVH is the result of high intensity training.
Either CV,or resistance.
In order to compensate the wall thickening,low pace cardio (60-70% of MHR),will ensure there is structural change,with larger and thinner ventricles.In modern cardiology,ventricular chamber capacity and wall thickness,are inversly proportional values.

 

[finkelet]

Everything he said. While I wouldn't freak out Ithis shouldn't be minimized either. Seek out a good cardiologist for a work up. They will likely do a stress echo where they look at how your heart works under strain. Depending on those results a cath would be the next assessment.

I do wonder about the long GH use along with the hypertension.

In spite of the study Vince posted to, I think only extremes of Hb/Hct are going to possible play a role. I really am not certain and don't want to speculate.

I would follow up with either of those two guys, but probably the preventative one if he is practicing evidence based medicine. Yes, lots of studies are highly controversial. Yes, old paradigms may need to be reevaluated. But, this is not something I'd just blow off or go to a fringe individual for assistance on. You want someone that knows what they are doing.

I would not fret or panic about this, but just follow up as recommended and I'm sure you'll have more answers and a better game plan with a lot less uncertainty/anxiety than you have now.

All the best.

 

[GA8314]

George,

Do we have proof that there are, indeed, androgen receptors on the myocardium? It would not be difficult to study (in vivo).

That being said, I agree with the premise that sustained afterload as a result of weight lifting, can predispose to LVH. But, so will sustained hyptertension, and indeed that's a primary cause (uncontrolled). I also agree that the heart is strained under excessive loads as seen in people that are overweight (obese or non-obese).

The other issue is that most of we guys on this forum are light to moderate weight trainers (from what I can tell), and our volumes of training are far from those of the professional level bodybuilder. So, several major variables separate those on this forum from more voluminous weight trainers: 1) level of circulating androgens and 2) level of workout hours and intensity (and by virtue of that, level of sustained afterload), 3) size

Edit: At least in baboons, a quick google search reveals that there are androgen receptors in myocardial cytoplasm:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6268332

Just a few thoughts.

 

[GA8314]

In summary, keep levels therapeutic (yes, I am currently breaking that rule). If you do significant weight training balance that out with low intensity cardio.

Thanks for increasing awareness George.

Sincerely,

GA

 

[magnus68]

In summary, keep levels therapeutic (yes, I am currently breaking that rule). If you do significant weight training balance that out with low intensity cardio.

Thanks for increasing awareness George.

Sincerely,

GA

I have had a cath for exploration of blocked arteries. I was good. no blockage. I am on therapeutic dose of 200mg a week and 2 iu a dau hgh. My first echo showed an Ejection Fraction of 30-35%. After controlling blood pressure with Losartan and Carvedilol for my heart perseverance it is at 50-55% six month later. I guess I stay on this course for life

 

[GEORGE TOULIATOS]

Here are some compensatory methods that can reverse this condition

http://gtoul.com/exercise-induced-cardiac-remodeling/

 

[xqfq]

I have had a cath for exploration of blocked arteries. I was good. no blockage. I am on therapeutic dose of 200mg a week and 2 iu a dau hgh. My first echo showed an Ejection Fraction of 30-35%. After controlling blood pressure with Losartan and Carvedilol for my heart perseverance it is at 50-55% six month later. I guess I stay on this course for life

I know this is an old thread, but for anyone reading along: a sustained blood pressure >= stage one hypertension (US guidelines), as this poster had, for several years can — and in fact often does — lead to LVH. I read a study that said something like 45% of people with stage one hypertension develop LVH in the next 4-5 years.

While a high hematocrit can, in some men, increase blood pressure, I don’t personally think it’s the increase in red blood cells itself that causes LVH- it’s the blood pressure.

With BP properly controlled and without damage to the heart (eg from a heart attack), the heart can sometimes remodel itself. I’m happy to hear the poster here, after months of controlled hypertension, was able to get back into the normal ejection fraction range.

 

[Charliebizz]

Honestly, your Cardiologist is not well informed on this. Large doses of Test (think bodybuilders on AAS) can cause heart issues - But by definition, you are on Testosterone Replacement Therapy - you are on a dose that is in the normal physiological range, not some crazy large dose that would potentially cause issues.

Stopping TRT cold turkey is almost never the right option and it is going to cause a ton of issues for you - all bad.

Well depends if trt was helping you. I never had a problem going cold turkey but also never had much luck on trt