Is it possible to block the vasodilatory effect of testosterone?

[transetpmedia]

I started TRT 6 months ago (28 years old) and have been suffering with an excessively strong heartbeat and pulse ever since. Many things causes this problem in me, but TRT is causing 24/7 at the moment. I have had every heart test which say that all is fine, including bloods, scans etc. I have been on TRT at various dosages (with/without HCG) with this problem of a 'bounding pulse'. I am currently on 70mg testosterone a week with daily injections giving me a level around 600-700 ngdl.

I've done endless research to try and find out what is causing this horrible bounding pulse. Things I have considered is estrogen too high, HCG causing the issue, giving 6 weeks to get stable levels and more. Everything on paper is absolutely normal, blood pressure is 115/60 with a HR of 55-60, heart is fine on MRI scans etc. There doesn't seem to be any difference in numbers between my blood pressure and scans between pre TRT and now.

I believe that the problem may be caused by the vasodilatory effects of testosterone. I have taken supplements like l-arginine before which give me a similar feeling (but much worse) to testosterone. I am very sensitive to these things. The largest analysis I could I find on pubmed discussing this dilatory mechanism states this:

(The vasodilatory action of testosterone: a potassium-channel opening or a calcium antagonistic action? ). ‘Clearly the majority of studies conducted into determining the dilatory mechanism of action of testosterone can be interpreted as being supportive of a calcium antagonistic action, since the efficacy of testosterone is clearly linked to the mechanism of action of the precontractile agonist.’. Is there anyway to counteract this action of vasodilation? This thing is very uncomfortable and stops me getting deep sleep because the pulse is stopping my brain from resting (as stange as that sounds).

Edit: I've tried beta blockers and everything else to try and stop this problem, with no success.

 

[Willyt]

Damn you're pretty young for TRT at 28. What were your pre-TRT levels?

Did you have same problem after stopping the HCG? I had something similar and discovered it was mostly driven by dose.

 

[Vince]

I started TRT 6 months ago (28 years old) and have been suffering with an excessively strong heartbeat and pulse ever since. Many things causes this problem in me, but TRT is causing 24/7 at the moment. I have had every heart test which say that all is fine, including bloods, scans etc. I have been on TRT at various dosages (with/without HCG) with this problem of a 'bounding pulse'. I am currently on 70mg testosterone a week with daily injections giving me a level around 600-700 ngdl.

I've done endless research to try and find out what is causing this horrible bounding pulse. Things I have considered is estrogen too high, HCG causing the issue, giving 6 weeks to get stable levels and more. Everything on paper is absolutely normal, blood pressure is 115/60 with a HR of 55-60, heart is fine on MRI scans etc. There doesn't seem to be any difference in numbers between my blood pressure and scans between pre TRT and now.

I believe that the problem may be caused by the vasodilatory effects of testosterone. I have taken supplements like l-arginine before which give me a similar feeling (but much worse) to testosterone. I am very sensitive to these things. The largest analysis I could I find on pubmed discussing this dilatory mechanism states this:

(The vasodilatory action of testosterone: a potassium-channel opening or a calcium antagonistic action? ). ‘Clearly the majority of studies conducted into determining the dilatory mechanism of action of testosterone can be interpreted as being supportive of a calcium antagonistic action, since the efficacy of testosterone is clearly linked to the mechanism of action of the precontractile agonist.’. Is there anyway to counteract this action of vasodilation? This thing is very uncomfortable and stops me getting deep sleep because the pulse is stopping my brain from resting (as stange as that sounds).

Edit: I've tried beta blockers and everything else to try and stop this problem, with no success.

When I get this problem I just turned my head into a different position and then I don't feel the pounding.

 

[sammmy]

Blood pressure should be measured at home, it is usually higher when measured at Dr office - the so called "lab coat effect". Mine is low 95/60 at home but normal 120/80 at Dr office.

During the day, you may want to try: drinking more water OR more water and more salt (to increase blood volume) OR vasoconstrictors like 15-30mg pseudoephedrine (found in nasal decongestants, scheduled drug).

 

[transetpmedia]

Blood pressure should be measured at home, it is usually higher when measured at Dr office - the so called "lab coat effect". Mine is low 95/60 at home but normal 120/80 at Dr office.

During the day, you may want to try: drinking more water OR more water and more salt (to increase blood volume) OR vasoconstrictors like 15-30mg pseudoephedrine (found in nasal decongestants, scheduled drug).

Yeah, the 115/60 is the average of what I get at home. So my stroke volume and other blood volumes are quite high, towards the top of the range and higher, so I think more salt would be detrimental?

I will try pseudoephrine but I guess I don't really want to be on stimulants.

 

[Cataceous]

Have you checked SHBG? In line with what @Willyt said, I've had similar issues at higher doses. If your SHBG is on the low side then your free testosterone could be high. Alternatively, your physiology might just prefer lower levels. About half of healthy young men have lower levels than where you are now. Because you're injecting daily another approach is to switch to a custom blend of testosterone cypionate and testosterone propionate. This would allow you to cut the testosterone dose by at least 20% while maintaining similar peak serum testosterone. This creates a diurnal rhythm that's more like what's seen naturally.

 

[sammmy]

Yeah, the 115/60 is the average of what I get at home. So my stroke volume and other blood volumes are quite high, towards the top of the range and higher, so I think more salt would be detrimental?

I will try pseudoephrine but I guess I don't really want to be on stimulants.

Pseudoephedrine at those doses causes less palpitations and "jitters" than a cup of green tea or coffee. It is quite a soft stimulant. It is also several times less potent than ephedrine.

 

[transetpmedia]

Pseudoephedrine at those doses causes less palpitations and "jitters" than a cup of green tea or coffee. It is quite a soft stimulant. It is also several times less potent than ephedrine.

Ok, so have you used it yourself for a similar reason? Does it interfere with sleep in your experience?

 

[tareload]

I started TRT 6 months ago (28 years old) and have been suffering with an excessively strong heartbeat and pulse ever since. Many things causes this problem in me, but TRT is causing 24/7 at the moment. I have had every heart test which say that all is fine, including bloods, scans etc. I have been on TRT at various dosages (with/without HCG) with this problem of a 'bounding pulse'. I am currently on 70mg testosterone a week with daily injections giving me a level around 600-700 ngdl.

I've done endless research to try and find out what is causing this horrible bounding pulse. Things I have considered is estrogen too high, HCG causing the issue, giving 6 weeks to get stable levels and more. Everything on paper is absolutely normal, blood pressure is 115/60 with a HR of 55-60, heart is fine on MRI scans etc. There doesn't seem to be any difference in numbers between my blood pressure and scans between pre TRT and now.

I believe that the problem may be caused by the vasodilatory effects of testosterone. I have taken supplements like l-arginine before which give me a similar feeling (but much worse) to testosterone. I am very sensitive to these things. The largest analysis I could I find on pubmed discussing this dilatory mechanism states this:

(The vasodilatory action of testosterone: a potassium-channel opening or a calcium antagonistic action? ). ‘Clearly the majority of studies conducted into determining the dilatory mechanism of action of testosterone can be interpreted as being supportive of a calcium antagonistic action, since the efficacy of testosterone is clearly linked to the mechanism of action of the precontractile agonist.’. Is there anyway to counteract this action of vasodilation? This thing is very uncomfortable and stops me getting deep sleep because the pulse is stopping my brain from resting (as stange as that sounds).

Edit: I've tried beta blockers and everything else to try and stop this problem, with no success.

Characterizing the effect of testosterone on VSM and CM as solely vasodilatory is incomplete.

Nandrolone for Mood | Feeling much Better..

Also, I haven't read the mouse study, but it occurs to me that in the early days of Low Carb, there was an attempt to show that (I think) olive oil was toxic using FMD as a measure. However I believe Volek subsequently showed that it was a short-term affect which disappeared after several weeks...

www.excelmale.com

See Figs. 2 and 4.

You'd also need to study and differentiate between these terms:

Difference Between Inotropic and Chronotropic | Compare the Difference Between Similar Terms

The key difference between inotropic and chronotropic is that inotropic is a cardiac drug which affects cardiac contractions (heartbeat) while chronotropic

www.differencebetween.com

I'm sorry you are having this experience. I suffered from it too and still do even after cessation of TRT.

 

[tareload]

Testosterone modulates cardiac contraction and calcium homeostasis: cellular and molecular mechanisms - Biology of Sex Differences

The incidence of cardiovascular disease rises dramatically with age in both men and women. Because a woman’s risk of cardiovascular disease rises markedly after the onset of menopause, there has been growing interest in the effect of estrogen on the heart and its role in the pathophysiology of...

bsd.biomedcentral.com

Haven't gotten my hands on this yet:

High Testosterone Levels: Impact on the Heart

Testosterone, the main endogenous active androgen, is used to treat many clinical conditions, such as hypogonadism, infertility, erectile dysfunction, osteoporosis, anemia, and in transgender therapy (female-to-male transsexuals). Androgens are also used by athletes...

link.springer.com

 

[transetpmedia]

Testosterone modulates cardiac contraction and calcium homeostasis: cellular and molecular mechanisms - Biology of Sex Differences

The incidence of cardiovascular disease rises dramatically with age in both men and women. Because a woman’s risk of cardiovascular disease rises markedly after the onset of menopause, there has been growing interest in the effect of estrogen on the heart and its role in the pathophysiology of...

bsd.biomedcentral.com

Haven't gotten my hands on this yet:

High Testosterone Levels: Impact on the Heart

Testosterone, the main endogenous active androgen, is used to treat many clinical conditions, such as hypogonadism, infertility, erectile dysfunction, osteoporosis, anemia, and in transgender therapy (female-to-male transsexuals). Androgens are also used by athletes...

link.springer.com

So you had these symptoms and TRT but found no resolution? I'm no scientist so I can only have surface level understanding of these kind of papers.

 

[transetpmedia]

Pseudoephedrine at those doses causes less palpitations and "jitters" than a cup of green tea or coffee. It is quite a soft stimulant. It is also several times less potent than ephedrine.

So in the UK maximum dose Sudafed contains Paracetamol 500mg, Caffeine 25mg and Phenylepherine hydrochloride 6.1mg.

 

[tareload]

Short answer is some people seem to have a more positive experience at lower serum TT/fT levels inside the reference range.

 

[transetpmedia]

Short answer is some people seem to have a more positive experience at lower serum TT/fT levels inside the reference range.

My testosterone is between 600-700ngdl with daily, next step is to reduce by 20% if nothing works. I also had a recent blood test which showed some interesting things;

Iron * 35.1 umol/L 12.6 - 26.0
Ferritin * 22 ug/L 24 - 336
TIBC 63 umol/L 50 - 80
Transferrin 2.5 g/L 2.0 - 3.2
Transferrin saturation * 56 % 20 - 45

I donated 3 months ago but ferritin is still low. I had a test a year ago which showed ferritin at 230, so seems like TRT is eating it up? Wonder if that could be contributing to symptoms.

 

[tareload]

My testosterone is between 600-700ngdl with daily, next step is to reduce by 20% if nothing works. I also had a recent blood test which showed some interesting things;

Iron * 35.1 umol/L 12.6 - 26.0
Ferritin * 22 ug/L 24 - 336
TIBC 63 umol/L 50 - 80
Transferrin 2.5 g/L 2.0 - 3.2
Transferrin saturation * 56 % 20 - 45

I donated 3 months ago but ferritin is still low. I had a test a year ago which showed ferritin at 230, so seems like TRT is eating it up? Wonder if that could be contributing to symptoms.

Why are you on TRT and what were are pre TRT labs?

 

[transetpmedia]

Why are you on TRT and what were are pre TRT labs?

Took somethings I shouldn't have and then left with symptoms for 8 years with a total testosterone around 300. Tried everything under the sun to increase it naturally but nothing worked. Didn't get on it sooner because I was told I was normal etc etc

 

[tareload]

Took somethings I shouldn't have and then left with symptoms for 8 years with a total testosterone around 300. Tried everything under the sun to increase it naturally but nothing worked. Didn't get on it sooner because I was told I was normal etc etc

Did you have the bounding pulse prior to exogenous T use?

 

[transetpmedia]

Did you have the bounding pulse prior to exogenous T use?

Yes, but it was controllable by avoiding triggers. But many things would trigger it, lots of supplements including vitamin D. Weightlifting as well would for a couple days after. Typical things that normally cause these symptoms such as caffeine and alcohol don't.

 

[tareload]

Haven't gotten my hands on this yet:

High Testosterone Levels: Impact on the Heart

Testosterone, the main endogenous active androgen, is used to treat many clinical conditions, such as hypogonadism, infertility, erectile dysfunction, osteoporosis, anemia, and in transgender therapy (female-to-male transsexuals). Androgens are also used by athletes...

link.springer.com

Ok, I couldn't resist:

TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building

Of course that's taking some liberties (cherry picking the blue and red data points but FWIW. Ok, update to post #93 above. I took all the rodent studies with testosterone and combined with the PK modeling of this paper. Doing so allows me to take the calculated weekly mean HEDs in post 93...

www.excelmale.com

 

[transetpmedia]

Ok, I couldn't resist:

TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building

Of course that's taking some liberties (cherry picking the blue and red data points but FWIW. Ok, update to post #93 above. I took all the rodent studies with testosterone and combined with the PK modeling of this paper. Doing so allows me to take the calculated weekly mean HEDs in post 93...

www.excelmale.com

Th point you're trying to make is flying over my head, I'm on a TRT dose not supraphysiological. Interestingly that article states testosterone is vasoconstricting.