Issues with cypionate causing heart pounding

[tareload]

@tareload, I know you mentioned in the past you have sertraline on hand, but you use lexapro. Have you ever been on sertraline? If so, how would you compare the experience to lexapro? I have been on it for a few months, but have been dropping the dose over time because of side effects.

Where is readolot? Kicking ass in the gym or busy at the library?

Sorry for late response. No never tried the sertraline. The first few weeks on escitalopram were ass so Doc said try the sertraline. On paper they should be very similar but in his experience they can act differently on the patient.

I stuck out the escitalopram. Don't know if sertraline would have been better. Anxiety / panic gone so I don't rock the boat. But man did it kill motivation at work. Luckily did not affect gym motivation.

Readalot hits the library while tareload hits the gym. Much more efficient that way. Actually tareload comes from the first time readalot was banned at Tnation. Came back as tareload. Now they have banned both so screw it.

I hope you find a solution that works for you. Best.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Sorry for late response. No never tried the sertraline. The first few weeks on escitalopram were ass so Doc said try the sertraline. On paper they should be very similar but in his experience they can act differently on the patient.

I stuck out the escitalopram. Don't know if sertraline would have been better. Anxiety / panic gone so I don't rock the boat. But man did it kill motivation at work. Luckily did not affect gym motivation.

Readalot hits the library while tareload hits the gym. Much more efficient that way. Actually tareload comes from the first time readalot was banned at Tnation. Came back as tareload. Now they have banned both so screw it.

I hope you find a solution that works for you. Best.

You might want to try the sertraline given some of your complaints about escitalopram. Sertraline is a mild dopamine reuptake inhibitor and that can make a difference in the right direction when you are dealing with anhedonia and apathy. I'll try to post more on this later.

 

[tareload]

I'll try to post more on this later.

I'll take a closer look at the reported pharmacodynamics of both. Thanks for mentioning!

 

[tareload]

You might want to try the sertraline given some of your complaints about escitalopram. Sertraline is a mild dopamine reuptake inhibitor and that can make a difference in the right direction when you are dealing with anhedonia and apathy. I'll try to post more on this later.

Serotonin–dopamine reuptake inhibitor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Pharmacological profile of antidepressants and related compounds at human monoamine transporters

Using radioligand binding assays, we determined the equilibrium dissociation constants (KD's) for 37 antidepressants, three of their metabolites (desm…

www.sciencedirect.com

Sounds like a long shot but will give it some thought. Would need to really crank up the dosage.

The Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor Sertraline: Its Profile and Use in Psychiatric Disorders - PMC

The naphthylamine derivative sertraline is a potent and selective inhibitor of serotonin reuptake into presynaptic terminals. Sertraline has a linear pharmacokinetic profile and a half‐life of about 26 h. Its major metabolite, desmethylsertraline ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[dmbexcel]

I did a post a while back explaining that I get an excessively strong heartbeat that is very uncomfortable on TRT. This heart symptom is part of a bigger health issue that I have not been able to fix, sort of like a chronic bounding pulse. I've been on TRT for 1.5 years and suffered this most of the time. My protocol is 8mg cypionate a day IM which has always been from Perrigo. My bloodwork is good; my levels sit around 700-750 and free testosterone is 0.5-0.6 (on British scale). Estrogen is relatively low and hematocrit around 0.5.

What was strange was that I found my last vial gave me less of the heavy heartbeat feeling. I started a new vial a week ago and the heart pounding has started again badly. The effect of the testosterone feels the same from both vials, so to me it feels like there is something else that is added that is giving me this heart pounding effect rather than the testosterone itself. I see it includes extra ingredients, Benzyl Alcohol and Benzyl Benzoate, I don't know if they are the cause and perhaps the last vial I used had different amounts in it?

Whatever is causing it, I am looking to try another type of testosterone as I can't handle this anymore. I was wondering if perhaps gel or cream would have less side effects like this. Can anyone offer me their on this and if there is testosterone formulation that would have the least amount of extra chemicals in it, or perhaps ones that are most benign?

I did a post a while back explaining that I get an excessively strong heartbeat that is very uncomfortable on TRT. This heart symptom is part of a bigger health issue that I have not been able to fix, sort of like a chronic bounding pulse. I've been on TRT for 1.5 years and suffered this most of the time. My protocol is 8mg cypionate a day IM which has always been from Perrigo. My bloodwork is good; my levels sit around 700-750 and free testosterone is 0.5-0.6 (on British scale). Estrogen is relatively low and hematocrit around 0.5.

What was strange was that I found my last vial gave me less of the heavy heartbeat feeling. I started a new vial a week ago and the heart pounding has started again badly. The effect of the testosterone feels the same from both vials, so to me it feels like there is something else that is added that is giving me this heart pounding effect rather than the testosterone itself. I see it includes extra ingredients, Benzyl Alcohol and Benzyl Benzoate, I don't know if they are the cause and perhaps the last vial I used had different amounts in it?

Whatever is causing it, I am looking to try another type of testosterone as I can't handle this anymore. I was wondering if perhaps gel or cream would have less side effects like this. Can anyone offer me their thoughts on this and if there is testosterone formulation that would have the least amount of extra chemicals in it, or perhaps ones that are most benign?

Is there a different T med that can be taken. I have the same issue.

 

[dmbexcel]

is there a different T med that can be taken other that Cypionate > i have the same issue.

 

[PhilM7]

Do you know why the cypionate would cause me problems when on clomid my levels were 50% higher but I didn't have any issues?

I have a theory that lowering LH and FSH in some men, which injections do, maybe the cause of heart palpitations. Or it has something to do with the constantly "on" dosage of testosterone, as the ester feeds a constant flow into the body. I had heart palpitations on injections, but not on enclomiphene, clomid or the scrotal testosterone creams. My estrogen and testosterone levels were similar on all 4 protocols. But I could only make it to 6 weeks on the injections before the heart palpitations got too bothersome and were affecting my sleep.

 

[Systemlord]

is there a different T med that can be taken other that Cypionate > i have the same issue.

Jatenzo, a new oral T gel capsule. The half-life is short at 6 hours, twice daily dosing. No more constantLH elevated, near static hormones.

 

[transetpmedia]

When you say "pounding heart" what does it feel? Is it that you feel that you heart is beating harder like trying to get out of your body? Do you feel your pulse when your at rest, or trying to sleep, and the pulse is so loud that can become distracted?

When you feel like that, have you measured your blood pressure and pulse? Is the pulse normal (below 100, ideally 60-70)

If so, it very well could be generalized anxiety disorder. I've been to a cardiologist for this "heavy beating" problem. My complaint was "my heart doesn't let me sleep" and the doctor laughed. I had all procedures done, echocardiogram, stress test, calcium score. Everything was great. My calcium score was 0 (zero) at 55 years old. The doctor say that my heart was beating strong and that was a good thing.

I have noticed that when I feel like that, it affects my sleep, I usually fall asleep within 2-3 min, but sometimes wake up during the night and it's hard to go back to sleep. At times I feel like I have some sort of breathing problem, like I have to make an (minimal) effort to breath, but it's really in my head. My respiratory rate during sleep has been consistent around 15 bpm for years. I have used a real time origin sensor during sleep and my O2 levels never fall below normal.

I recently started T.cyp, just like you Perrigo, at 15mg M-W-F (similar to your dose of 8mg a day) and I'm feeling the sensation again. It had gone away when I was using hCG only, and I think that non-physiological constant levels of free T, even when the levels itself are well within range, could be exacerbating my anxiety.

My two cents.

Are you still on Perrigo having that sensation?

I switched to sustanon and it went away. However, I have been having other issues with sustanon so a couple of days ago I decided to try out a daily dose of cypionate again. The heart sensation came back. I'm not sure if this is a problem I have with cypionate in general or perhaps wonder if it's specific to Perrigo. The other differences between sustanon and cypionate are in the oil used and the presence of benzyl benzoate. I am now going to try enthanate which also has benzyl benzoate. I'm hoping it won't happen again with enthanate this time.

 

[aneuman]

Are you still on Perrigo having that sensation?

I switched to sustanon and it went away. However, I have been having other issues with sustanon so a couple of days ago I decided to try out a daily dose of cypionate again. The heart sensation came back. I'm not sure if this is a problem I have with cypionate in general or perhaps wonder if it's specific to Perrigo. The other differences between sustanon and cypionate are in the oil used and the presence of benzyl benzoate. I am now going to try enthanate which also has benzyl benzoate. I'm hoping it won't happen again with enthanate this time.

Yes I am still on Perrigo, and no I do not have the "sustained" pounding heart. I may get it on the day of the injection, if for whatever reason I changed the dosage, but I don't have it constantly as I was having earlier. The main change has been the switch back to subQ. On IM the anxiety, tho manageable, was an unwelcome side effect. On subQ I may have it as I say on injection day, but it doesn't affect my sleep and the next day I'm back to normal. As a matter of fact, today was my injection day and I have not felt anxious at all.

For reference, I'm using 50 mg twice a week subQ in the belly fat.

 

[dmbexcel]

When you say "pounding heart" what does it feel? Is it that you feel that you heart is beating harder like trying to get out of your body? Do you feel your pulse when your at rest, or trying to sleep, and the pulse is so loud that can become distracted?

When you feel like that, have you measured your blood pressure and pulse? Is the pulse normal (below 100, ideally 60-70)

If so, it very well could be generalized anxiety disorder. I've been to a cardiologist for this "heavy beating" problem. My complaint was "my heart doesn't let me sleep" and the doctor laughed. I had all procedures done, echocardiogram, stress test, calcium score. Everything was great. My calcium score was 0 (zero) at 55 years old. The doctor say that my heart was beating strong and that was a good thing.

I have noticed that when I feel like that, it affects my sleep, I usually fall asleep within 2-3 min, but sometimes wake up during the night and it's hard to go back to sleep. At times I feel like I have some sort of breathing problem, like I have to make an (minimal) effort to breath, but it's really in my head. My respiratory rate during sleep has been consistent around 15 bpm for years. I have used a real time origin sensor during sleep and my O2 levels never fall below normal.

I recently started T.cyp, just like you Perrigo, at 15mg M-W-F (similar to your dose of 8mg a day) and I'm feeling the sensation again. It had gone away when I was using hCG only, and I think that non-physiological constant levels of free T, even when the levels itself are well within range, could be exacerbating my anxiety.

My two cents.

Personally I am not on any other meds and not under any type of stress or anxiety, I know what those feel like. Do not have any heart or respitory condition, high BP, and not over weight. These things would be more noticeable at other times of the day or during exercise. All of my bloodwork is normal. At present I take 4mg of T-Cyp every 4 days, I have taken smaller doses and the pounding was the same. The only time I notice this annoying pounding in my head is when I lay down to sleep and I hear my heart beat in my head,... from my head laying against the pillow. I once spent 24 hours in the hospital for this but they found nothing. It's been happening for at-least about 7 years. I have read that switching to T-Enanthate resolved this issue.

 

[dmbexcel]

Jatenzo, a new oral T gel capsule. The half-life is short at 6 hours, twice daily dosing. No more constantLH elevated, near static hormones.

I have read here somewhere that T-Enanthate is successful in elevating T levels. I have not tried it yet

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Whatever is causing it, I am looking to try another type of testosterone as I can't handle this anymore. I was wondering if perhaps gel or cream would have less side effects like this. Can anyone offer me their thoughts on this and if there is testosterone formulation that would have the least amount of extra chemicals in it, or perhaps ones that are most benign?

Some men have this issue. It has never been fully explained as to why. Have you tried testosterone gels/creams?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

For anyone following or interested, I’ve switched to sustanon, doing daily shots like I was on cypionate. I have found this heart pounding issue and vasodilating issue has basically gone. Looking at the chemical make up of both it seems that aside from esters, the only difference is that sustanon has now Benzyl Benzoate. I wonder if that is the culprit?

Edit: sustanon has no benzyl benzoate.

I've had a much better experience with testosterone enanthate without benzyl benzoate and benzyl alcohol than I had with either cypionate or propionate formulas that included benzyl benzoate and benzyl alcohol. I don't think there is anything magical about enanthate, especially when it sits in between cypionate and propionate in terms of half life (closer to cypionate of course). I think it has to be the excipients.

Benzyl benzoate is metabolized into benzyl alcohol, which my research suggests can be quite toxic. The presence of benzyl benzoate in the formula also alters the viscosity and consequently the release of testosterone from the oil depot in ways that might be undesirable depending on the individual.

Definitely try a formula without these excipients if you're struggling on the standard preparations. I'm using higher doses now on Hikma enanthate with no heart rate elevation, no BP increase, no anxiety, and no insomnia, all of which were a problem at lower doses of cypionate w/ benzyl excipients.

I also had no trouble tolerating much higher levels of free T on cream than on cypionate, which further implicates excipients.

 

[Charliebizz]

I've had a much better experience with testosterone enanthate without benzyl benzoate and benzyl alcohol than I had with either cypionate or propionate formulas that included benzyl benzoate and benzyl alcohol. I don't think there is anything magical about enanthate, especially when it sits in between cypionate and propionate in terms of half life (closer to cypionate of course). I think it has to be the excipients.

Benzyl benzoate is metabolized into benzyl alcohol, which my research suggests can be quite toxic. The presence of benzyl benzoate in the formula also alters the viscosity and consequently the release of testosterone from the oil depot in ways that might be undesirable depending on the individual.

Definitely try a formula without these excipients if you're struggling on the standard preparations. I'm using higher doses now on Hikma enanthate with no heart rate elevation, no BP increase, no anxiety, and no insomnia, all of which were a problem at lower doses of cypionate w/ benzyl excipients.

I also had no trouble tolerating much higher levels of free T on cream than on cypionate, which further implicates excipients.

I felt exactly the same on enanthate with benzyl benzoate as I did with it in Chlorobutanol. Much better then t cyp. And I feel awful on t- cyp with both of those Preservatives in them. So I still believe for me personally the ester was the issue.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I felt exactly the same on enanthate with benzyl benzoate as I did with it in Chlorobutanol. Much better then t cyp. And I feel awful on t- cyp with both of those Preservatives in them. So I still believe for me personally the ester was the issue.

Well that is interesting. I will have to try enanthate with the benzyl benzoate some time when I want to risk feeling like crap to find out for sure if it's the ester vs excipients. It would save money if I could get away with a cheaper compounded product.

 

[granger]

I am sure most of this has already been said but...

do you notice its worse day or 2 after injection or better day before injection?

have u tried less often injection?

whats your Estrogen like? over 28-30 BMI? estrogen can affect anxiety/heart palpatations..


its possible when u lay down puts pressure on a certain part of your heart esp if overweight(even slightly) and causes ur heart to pound harder.. from my understanding its like temp carditis that causes similar issue.

have you worn a monitor during an episode?

lots of DRs suck or prefer not to say "maybe this" as not 100% and than it may affect your insurance/anxiety etc. esp if borderline and not super obvious... heck i had a DR miss a broken bone had !!

as for it being testosterone directly that is idopathic i wonder if its connected to DHEA and other minor steroids/precursers... or perhaps because its un natural to have test high all day and night and causes calcium/electrolyte issues/imbalance.. ie making your body think its dehydrated essentially. i know when im dehydrated i get similar thing with pounding heart get woken up in the night...

i know its been 7 years but even flu can mess with heart... and now adays with covid covid infection gives ~25% of people pericardial infraction which is kinda scary.. usually resolves apparently but of course fluid around the heart isnt ideal.. so if get sick every year with a fever could make it worse.

can try magnesium vitamin E omega q10 D... but be aware sometimes too much magnesium out of balance can cause pounding heart so possible can make it worse. also worth staying hydrated taking digestive enzymes (that allow u to absorb vitamin D and others) probiotics... also perhaps trying to lower sugar before bed/supper aswell as tottaly if possible esp bad carbs/sugar and try and get more proteins... also getting 2-3 hrs a week of cardio may help if it is infact anxiety based...

here is a good article lays out how test is good AND BAD for the heart.. mentions calcium channels etc..
Testosterone, cardiomyopathies, and heart failure: a narrative review. I would guess pharmokenetics is why some folks notice differences in different esters/injection frequency or sub vs IM vs excipient carriers etc as perhaps more drastic changes on homostasis in calcium channels or because directly affect heart cells causes some of the issues observed.

also curious if u drink more than 1 cup of coffee per day and or take nicotine or on ADD medication. while it may seem impossible 1 cup of coffee causes the issues many hours later its def possible.

I think its weird that its often overlooked about test levels... test levels are tested early am to see PEAK levels... ie 700 for a few hrs and down to 3-400 for the rest of the time.. yet for some reason folks target the PEAK level and keep it at the HIGHEST LEVEL during the day of a healthy individual.. when if want to be more "natural" should stay well below "normal peak" for majority of the time... ie shoot for "normal" levels of a guy at 3 pm not 8 am vs upper level of high test individual. likely why frequent injections work better for some vs having ultra high test for 2-3 days a week...


since im on a rant, also remember most if not all test clinics are pill mills. wether u agree or not they are there for $$.. and obv better they make people feel more customers they get...which is fine if u want legal steroids. but if looking for health and longevity such clinics may not be the best. all these clinics that give 25 yo test when already have levels around 500 test levels obv are not out for health but certainly make people dependant and feel awesome just like oxy clinics..

 

[Charliebizz]

I am sure most of this has already been said but...

do you notice its worse day or 2 after injection or better day before injection?

have u tried less often injection?

whats your Estrogen like? over 28-30 BMI? estrogen can affect anxiety/heart palpatations..


its possible when u lay down puts pressure on a certain part of your heart esp if overweight(even slightly) and causes ur heart to pound harder.. from my understanding its like temp carditis that causes similar issue.

have you worn a monitor during an episode?

lots of DRs suck or prefer not to say "maybe this" as not 100% and than it may affect your insurance/anxiety etc. esp if borderline and not super obvious... heck i had a DR miss a broken bone had !!

as for it being testosterone directly that is idopathic i wonder if its connected to DHEA and other minor steroids/precursers... or perhaps because its un natural to have test high all day and night and causes calcium/electrolyte issues/imbalance.. ie making your body think its dehydrated essentially. i know when im dehydrated i get similar thing with pounding heart get woken up in the night...

i know its been 7 years but even flu can mess with heart... and now adays with covid covid infection gives ~25% of people pericardial infraction which is kinda scary.. usually resolves apparently but of course fluid around the heart isnt ideal.. so if get sick every year with a fever could make it worse.

can try magnesium vitamin E omega q10 D... but be aware sometimes too much magnesium out of balance can cause pounding heart so possible can make it worse. also worth staying hydrated taking digestive enzymes (that allow u to absorb vitamin D and others) probiotics... also perhaps trying to lower sugar before bed/supper aswell as tottaly if possible esp bad carbs/sugar and try and get more proteins... also getting 2-3 hrs a week of cardio may help if it is infact anxiety based...

here is a good article lays out how test is good AND BAD for the heart.. mentions calcium channels etc..
Testosterone, cardiomyopathies, and heart failure: a narrative review. I would guess pharmokenetics is why some folks notice differences in different esters/injection frequency or sub vs IM vs excipient carriers etc as perhaps more drastic changes on homostasis in calcium channels or because directly affect heart cells causes some of the issues observed.

also curious if u drink more than 1 cup of coffee per day and or take nicotine or on ADD medication. while it may seem impossible 1 cup of coffee causes the issues many hours later its def possible.

I think its weird that its often overlooked about test levels... test levels are tested early am to see PEAK levels... ie 700 for a few hrs and down to 3-400 for the rest of the time.. yet for some reason folks target the PEAK level and keep it at the HIGHEST LEVEL during the day of a healthy individual.. when if want to be more "natural" should stay well below "normal peak" for majority of the time... ie shoot for "normal" levels of a guy at 3 pm not 8 am vs upper level of high test individual. likely why frequent injections work better for some vs having ultra high test for 2-3 days a week...


since im on a rant, also remember most if not all test clinics are pill mills. wether u agree or not they are there for $$.. and obv better they make people feel more customers they get...which is fine if u want legal steroids. but if looking for health and longevity such clinics may not be the best. all these clinics that give 25 yo test when already have levels around 500 test levels obv are not out for health but certainly make people dependant and feel awesome just like oxy clinics..

For me it had nothing to do with any of that. It was as simple as switching from cypionate to enanthate.

 

[aneuman]

Personally I am not on any other meds and not under any type of stress or anxiety, I know what those feel like. Do not have any heart or respitory condition, high BP, and not over weight. These things would be more noticeable at other times of the day or during exercise. All of my bloodwork is normal. At present I take 4mg of T-Cyp every 4 days, I have taken smaller doses and the pounding was the same. The only time I notice this annoying pounding in my head is when I lay down to sleep and I hear my heart beat in my head,... from my head laying against the pillow. I once spent 24 hours in the hospital for this but they found nothing. It's been happening for at-least about 7 years. I have read that switching to T-Enanthate resolved this issue.

BTW, I've been on the same 100 mg (50+50 E3.5D) and have not had any of the symptoms I initially related