Insomnia help. I have been on TRT for 15 days and can barely sleep.

[Gauge]

All of your issues point towards simply not training long enough. If you're already working out, then consider adding on extra cardio volume. The other potential is that you're training too late or too hard.
I would also dig into your diet but if you're on trt and not doing atleast 1hr of exercise per day, preferably, 1.5hrs, then i think you'll always have this issue.

 

[Stoak]

I’m saying if you pin Monday and Thursday, just skip a Thursday.

Gotcha

 

[JimGainz]

You can also try lowering the dose and injecting every other day - maybe 35 -
40 mg eod. (When increasing frequency most guys lower dose due to
Half life - it builds up and gets you at the same level).

Beyond that - I’ve hade very good success with magnesium supplements. The brand I use is Doctors Choice -it’s magnesium glutamate so it’s absorbed fast and doesn’t cause GI issues. Two of those pills and I feel like I took a sauna and am ready for bed.
Also, if you can get your hands on it - try some THC / *** cannabis edibles or tinctures. About 4 mg THC with some *** will put me out till 5 am or later (going to bed around 10-11 pm) which is amazing for me.

 

[Appassionato]

I wouldn't throw any other variable in, like supplements. I've been struggling with sleep for years, before and after TRT and I can guarantee you that supplements don't work if the cause is hormonal.

As someone else said, take out HCG of the equation for now and do test only. You were doing half a gram before and were able to be on that levels with no issue, so I don't know how 170 mg could give you a panic attack and insomnia.

Try to stay on it 2 months and see how that goes.

 

[Stoak]

I wouldn't throw any other variable in, like supplements. I've been struggling with sleep for years, before and after TRT and I can guarantee you that supplements don't work if the cause is hormonal.

As someone else said, take out HCG of the equation for now and do test only. You were doing half a gram before and were able to be on that levels with no issue, so I don't know how 170 mg could give you a panic attack and insomnia.

Try to stay on it 2 months and see how that goes.

That's what I thought, but half a gram or more was 10 years ago... a lot can change in 10 years it seems. I didn't have my first anxiety attack until 2017. Earlier this year I had to be pulled out of an MRI machine after I panicked. I don't know why this is happening but I seem to have developed anxiety post 35.

 

[Appassionato]

That's what I thought, but half a gram or more was 10 years ago... a lot can change in 10 years it seems. I didn't have my first anxiety attack until 2017. Earlier this year I had to be pulled out of an MRI machine after I panicked. I don't know why this is happening but I seem to have developed anxiety post 35.

Were you on cycle when you had your anxiety attack in 2017? Otherwise it could be due to lack of androgens back in 2017, since you were on steroids and you shut down your HPTA.
There are several factors at play for anxiety, it's not an easy one. I can tell you for sure that many of us don't tolerate HCG and I used to have terrible anxiety on it.

 

[Hammer]

Hi guys. I'm in my late 30s in general good health and in shape. Used anabolics off and on for years in my late 20s. After coming off, TT was 300ng/dl for years and my last free test was mid single digits pg/ml. I decided to try TRT to see if I could live better. My sleep has always been pretty good. I'm a vivid dreamer and can sleep for 9 hours. I usually have a couple of drinks early evening and go to bed consistently at 930-10. Usually I would wake up every other night around 2 (sometimes to piss, sometimes just because) but would fall back to sleep. Since beginning TRT I can't go back to sleep at 2 and if I do I wake up every hour. I even tried not drinking anything one night and I couldn't fall asleep until 2 then woke up every hour. I feel like I can't get to REM sleep... I'm not dreaming. The crazy part is that I am not tired just a bit out of it.

Apparently I do grind my teeth and wear a mouthguard nightly. I had a sleep study done a couple of years ago and I do not have sleep apnea. The question I have is this... is this just an adjustment period and my body will normalize? Or do I need to start tweaking things now? I can't keep doing this because I feel like I have been in hell for 10 days. As far as I can recall I have never had trouble sleeping. I used to take 500+ mg of test and other anabolics 10+ years ago and I do recall some mild insomnia, but this seems way worse.

My current protocol is 170mg of test cyp weekly divided into 2 shots. I've done 4 injections so far.

Also, is week 3 too early for hormone bloodwork just to see where this dose has my levels?

 

[Hammer]

Hi guys. I'm in my late 30s in general good health and in shape. Used anabolics off and on for years in my late 20s. After coming off, TT was 300ng/dl for years and my last free test was mid single digits pg/ml. I decided to try TRT to see if I could live better. My sleep has always been pretty good. I'm a vivid dreamer and can sleep for 9 hours. I usually have a couple of drinks early evening and go to bed consistently at 930-10. Usually I would wake up every other night around 2 (sometimes to piss, sometimes just because) but would fall back to sleep. Since beginning TRT I can't go back to sleep at 2 and if I do I wake up every hour. I even tried not drinking anything one night and I couldn't fall asleep until 2 then woke up every hour. I feel like I can't get to REM sleep... I'm not dreaming. The crazy part is that I am not tired just a bit out of it.

Apparently I do grind my teeth and wear a mouthguard nightly. I had a sleep study done a couple of years ago and I do not have sleep apnea. The question I have is this... is this just an adjustment period and my body will normalize? Or do I need to start tweaking things now? I can't keep doing this because I feel like I have been in hell for 10 days. As far as I can recall I have never had trouble sleeping. I used to take 500+ mg of test and other anabolics 10+ years ago and I do recall some mild insomnia, but this seems way worse.

My current protocol is 170mg of test cyp weekly divided into 2 shots. I've done 4 injections so far.

Also, is week 3 too early for hormone bloodwork just to see where this dose has my levels?

3weeks in is a bit early. I always waited at least 6 - 8 weeks for re-testing. I had the same problem for years and still contend with the issue somewhat. The biggest improvements in my sleep were due to dosage reductions. I started TRT 11 years ago with 100mg/wk of Test. That dosage puts me in the very high end of the range. Over the years I slowly reduced the dosage to see if my sleep would improve. It wasn't until the last few months that my sleep improved dramatically by further reducing my dosage from 6omg/wk to 52mg/wk. My hematocrit levels dropped along with my decreased dosage which I believe is the culprit of my insomnia. The induced polycythemia seemed to make me feel hot all the time and restless at night. My hematocrit is now 47 - 48 and I'm getting in 7 hours per night. In years past I was only booking 2 - 3 hrs maybe per night! I'm 63 years old however and not a young guy such as yourself. Do you have any idea what kind of testosterone as well as hemoglobin and hematocrit levels you have on your current dosage? Your estrogen may be high as well.

 

[JimGainz]

That's what I thought, but half a gram or more was 10 years ago... a lot can change in 10 years it seems. I didn't have my first anxiety attack until 2017. Earlier this year I had to be pulled out of an MRI machine after I panicked. I don't know why this is happening but I seem to have developed anxiety post 35.

Sudden onset anxiety is definitely hormonal. I have had this in the past and it was related to either of the following:

- too many roids (in the 80s when I was bodybuilding)
- Clomid. Took 40 mg plus some Nolvadex for two days straight and wanted to throw myself out the window. Lasted a month
- low T (coming off a Sarms run without proper PCT)
- starting thyroid meds before I got it dialed in

The thing is -once you get the hormones fixed you are good to go. From reading all the posts here, I would concur that you should drop HCG as that could be a major contributor for some.

 

[Stoak]

Were you on cycle when you had your anxiety attack in 2017? Otherwise it could be due to lack of androgens back in 2017, since you were on steroids and you shut down your HPTA.
There are several factors at play for anxiety, it's not an easy one. I can tell you for sure that many of us don't tolerate HCG and I used to have terrible anxiety on it.

I haven't touched steroids since 2012. So I was 5 years removed from any exogenous androgen use when I had my first panic attack. I had a yearly testosterone test once I stopped and my levels were consistently 300-350ng/dl TT, so my HPTA was definitely working.

 

[Stoak]

3weeks in is a bit early. I always waited at least 6 - 8 weeks for re-testing. I had the same problem for years and still contend with the issue somewhat. The biggest improvements in my sleep were due to dosage reductions. I started TRT 11 years ago with 100mg/wk of Test. That dosage puts me in the very high end of the range. Over the years I slowly reduced the dosage to see if my sleep would improve. It wasn't until the last few months that my sleep improved dramatically by further reducing my dosage from 6omg/wk to 52mg/wk. My hematocrit levels dropped along with my decreased dosage which I believe is the culprit of my insomnia. The induced polycythemia seemed to make me feel hot all the time and restless at night. My hematocrit is now 47 - 48 and I'm getting in 7 hours per night. In years past I was only booking 2 - 3 hrs maybe per night! I'm 63 years old however and not a young guy such as yourself. Do you have any idea what kind of testosterone as well as hemoglobin and hematocrit levels you have on your current dosage? Your estrogen may be high as well.

The reason I wanted a to know about blood testing so early was to figure out if there is a chance my testosterone is overdosed. I'm only 2 weeks in man. I doubt it is but it is my first experience with a compounding pharmacy. Google "TRT compounding pharmacies" and it will make one a bit hesitant to inject if one doesn't think rationally about how many guys are using from the same compounders. All of my blood markers are low end pre TRT. I have very low platelets 165k, very low hematocrit 41.

 

[rchristman]

Hi guys. I'm in my late 30s in general good health and in shape. Used anabolics off and on for years in my late 20s. After coming off, TT was 300ng/dl for years and my last free test was mid single digits pg/ml. I decided to try TRT to see if I could live better. My sleep has always been pretty good. I'm a vivid dreamer and can sleep for 9 hours. I usually have a couple of drinks early evening and go to bed consistently at 930-10. Usually I would wake up every other night around 2 (sometimes to piss, sometimes just because) but would fall back to sleep. Since beginning TRT I can't go back to sleep at 2 and if I do I wake up every hour. I even tried not drinking anything one night and I couldn't fall asleep until 2 then woke up every hour. I feel like I can't get to REM sleep... I'm not dreaming. The crazy part is that I am not tired just a bit out of it.

Apparently I do grind my teeth and wear a mouthguard nightly. I had a sleep study done a couple of years ago and I do not have sleep apnea. The question I have is this... is this just an adjustment period and my body will normalize? Or do I need to start tweaking things now? I can't keep doing this because I feel like I have been in hell for 10 days. As far as I can recall I have never had trouble sleeping. I used to take 500+ mg of test and other anabolics 10+ years ago and I do recall some mild insomnia, but this seems way worse.

My current protocol is 170mg of test cyp weekly divided into 2 shots. I've done 4 injections so far.

Also, is week 3 too early for hormone bloodwork just to see where this dose has my levels?

Hey Soak,
Firstly. Your dosage will most likely have you at superphysiological results in due time.
With that being said, anything that may be lurking beneath the surface will most likely manifest itself.
Please work with your doctor to adjust your dosage and keep getting bloods drawn so you and him can get your TRT dialed in.
I would try daily injections with an insulin needle in the mornings. This will prevent sudden spikes in your testosterone levels as well as making E2 management easier.
Sleep hygiene is very important so you need to protect your sleep architecture.
Keep us posted!

 

[Appassionato]

I haven't touched steroids since 2012. So I was 5 years removed from any exogenous androgen use when I had my first panic attack. I had a yearly testosterone test once I stopped and my levels were consistently 300-350ng/dl TT, so my HPTA was definitely working.

Well it was working, but it was compromised already. You were having low T and with those levels I was feeling heavily anxious.

This further suggests me that HCG could be your issue, because it throws off the ratio between T:E2 in a big number of people.

E2 follows T in a linear way, HCG alters that ratio.
If I was you, I would have taken HCG out as a first thing. Stay on T only for 8 weeks if sides are tolerable.
If you have a panic attack again during your T only protocol, reduce your dose. At least you ruled out one variable and you know HCG wasn't the issue.

 

[JohnTaylorHK]

I had this also, and for me it was pretty hard to diagnose. I take 3mg melatonin every evening around 7PM, and it helps. What I found was that this is a hormonal thing (duh!) and that regular meal-times, regular sleeping times, moderate exercise, no alcohol (easy for me as I am teetotal) was the key. I sleep when I'm tired, often taking an hour or so in the afternoon if I feel a bit sleepy.

I have been slammed here for "Blastin' 'n Cruisin'" (sounds like something from Dukes of Hazzard) but I would recommend 3 months on, three months off for your TRT. This is to give your HPGA time to resume it's natural course and levels, and ensure it doesn't shut down completely. You will soon know the right times for you to resume TRT, and are better able to gauge the effects on a cyclic basis. It provides a great opportunity to experiment, as IMVHO we are all different and no one can say that what works for them will work for you.

One thing I see running through the threads on here is that there are often multiple medical issues which may have different reactions to the medications you may try. I recommend ensuing your nutrition is spot on, e.g. You get at least twice the RDA of everything.

I just finished reading "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox" by Kate Rheaume Bleue which has pointed out another possible gap in my nutrition, and again this is an ongoing process.

Namaste.

 

[madman]

Hi guys. I'm in my late 30s in general good health and in shape. Used anabolics off and on for years in my late 20s. After coming off, TT was 300ng/dl for years and my last free test was mid single digits pg/ml. I decided to try TRT to see if I could live better. My sleep has always been pretty good. I'm a vivid dreamer and can sleep for 9 hours. I usually have a couple of drinks early evening and go to bed consistently at 930-10. Usually I would wake up every other night around 2 (sometimes to piss, sometimes just because) but would fall back to sleep. Since beginning TRT I can't go back to sleep at 2 and if I do I wake up every hour. I even tried not drinking anything one night and I couldn't fall asleep until 2 then woke up every hour. I feel like I can't get to REM sleep... I'm not dreaming. The crazy part is that I am not tired just a bit out of it.

Apparently I do grind my teeth and wear a mouthguard nightly. I had a sleep study done a couple of years ago and I do not have sleep apnea. The question I have is this... is this just an adjustment period and my body will normalize? Or do I need to start tweaking things now? I can't keep doing this because I feel like I have been in hell for 10 days. As far as I can recall I have never had trouble sleeping. I used to take 500+ mg of test and other anabolics 10+ years ago and I do recall some mild insomnia, but this seems way worse.

My current protocol is 170mg of test cyp weekly divided into 2 shots. I've done 4 injections so far.

Also, is week 3 too early for hormone bloodwork just to see where this dose has my levels?

The question I have is this... is this just an adjustment period and my body will normalize? Or do I need to start tweaking things now?


You just started trt and your body is going to go through a hormonal rollercoaster.

In the beginning, your body is still producing some endogenous T and you are also injecting exogenous T which will eventually cause shut down of your hpta which can happen within 2-6 weeks depending on the dose used.

Average trt doses 100 mg/week have been shown to cause shut down within (4-6 weeks) as oppose to supra-physiological doses (250/500 mg/week) which can cause shut down much quicker (2 weeks).

It is common for many to experience sleep issues due to not only the fluctuations in T levels but also because testosterone has a tonic effect on the CNS and can easily make one feel amped up.

High T levels will cause this and seeing as you are on a fairly high starting dose of 170 mg/week (85 mg every 3.5 days) it is not surprising that you are experiencing insomnia.

Your T levels will be in FLUX leading up until when levels stabilize at 6 weeks and many can experience ups/downs during this transition and even then once levels have stabilized it can take another 2 months for the body to adapt to the new levels.

So although the insomnia you are currently experiencing may be temporary it may very well persist if your T levels end up being too high.

Only time will tell and you need to wait 6 weeks before getting blood work to see how said protocol (dose T/injection frequency) affects your TT/FT/e2 levels along with overall health markers.

I know this may be easier said than done but you are only 2 weeks in and it would be smart to just tough it out and wait until you have blood work done then decide if any adjustments need to be made.

Otherwise, take advice from others and lower your weekly dose slightly.

Most on trt are using anywhere from 100-150 mg/week and some higher up to 200 mg/week.

No one can say for sure if your dose will indeed have your T levels too high as again some men do need 150-200 mg/week to achieve a healthy FT level.

We are injecting hormones and starting low and going slow would be the most sensible approach.

 

[madman]

I had this also, and for me it was pretty hard to diagnose. I take 3mg melatonin every evening around 7PM, and it helps. What I found was that this is a hormonal thing (duh!) and that regular meal-times, regular sleeping times, moderate exercise, no alcohol (easy for me as I am teetotal) was the key. I sleep when I'm tired, often taking an hour or so in the afternoon if I feel a bit sleepy.

I have been slammed here for "Blastin' 'n Cruisin'" (sounds like something from Dukes of Hazzard) but I would recommend 3 months on, three months off for your TRT. This is to give your HPGA time to resume it's natural course and levels, and ensure it doesn't shut down completely. You will soon know the right times for you to resume TRT, and are better able to gauge the effects on a cyclic basis. It provides a great opportunity to experiment, as IMVHO we are all different and no one can say that what works for them will work for you.

One thing I see running through the threads on here is that there are often multiple medical issues which may have different reactions to the medications you may try. I recommend ensuing your nutrition is spot on, e.g. You get at least twice the RDA of everything.

I just finished reading "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox" by Kate Rheaume Bleue which has pointed out another possible gap in my nutrition, and again this is an ongoing process.

Namaste.

This is horrible advice and has no place on a trt forum!

 

[Deno]

I don't have time to read everyone's comments [although I'm sure they are awesome]. I saw your message at the top of the regular email we get from ExcelMale.

The first thing I thought of was my experience: I had done clomid in the past couple of years for a month or less at a time. It definitely was helping.

During January 2020, I signed up with Defy. They did the blood tests and my test was 420. This was partly due to a head injury I received years ago (search for my thread on here).

They put me on Enclomiphene Citrate 12.5/day, and Anastrozole 0.125mg 3-4 week. I ended up doubling the dose of EC after 2 weeks, and felt normal. Like I could tell my test was where it needed to be. Unbeknownst to me, my IGF-1 had dropped. The followup blood test showed an 87, and this correlated with poor quality sleep I as experiencing. (Doc said he wanted to see it at 200 and suggested DK677 (I think if I remember).

When I re-ordered EC, I went back down to 12.5/day. I also use a list of supplements (again look at my thread). Hardly ever/never take Anastrozole. That *could* be because of the zinc and other supplements, making it unnecessary. I read somewhere that zinc was a decent AI. I took it for a little bit (anas) but never really felt a need to.

My sleep recovered. I also take 5mg gummies of melatonin, usually 2-3 of them, before bed. But that's just for an extra bump right now while the gyms are closed so I can't get a daily workout in.

Edit: You're young. Why take supplemental exogenous test? Why not try clomid?

 

[JohnTaylorHK]

This is horrible advice and has no place on a trt forum!

Yet here I am. Whilst everyone else is bitching and moaning and not using their brain, I am finding out what's right for me, what has worked for a long while for me, and offering that info for free. Namaste.

 

[Rabbit91476]

Happens to me 2 weeks after every dose increase and eventually goes away. The night sweats is what drives me nuts.

 

[Stoak]

I don't have time to read everyone's comments [although I'm sure they are awesome]. I saw your message at the top of the regular email we get from ExcelMale.

The first thing I thought of was my experience: I had done clomid in the past couple of years for a month or less at a time. It definitely was helping.

During January 2020, I signed up with Defy. They did the blood tests and my test was 420. This was partly due to a head injury I received years ago (search for my thread on here).

They put me on Enclomiphene Citrate 12.5/day, and Anastrozole 0.125mg 3-4 week. I ended up doubling the dose of EC after 2 weeks, and felt normal. Like I could tell my test was where it needed to be. Unbeknownst to me, my IGF-1 had dropped. The followup blood test showed an 87, and this correlated with poor quality sleep I as experiencing. (Doc said he wanted to see it at 200 and suggested DK677 (I think if I remember).

When I re-ordered EC, I went back down to 12.5/day. I also use a list of supplements (again look at my thread). Hardly ever/never take Anastrozole. That *could* be because of the zinc and other supplements, making it unnecessary. I read somewhere that zinc was a decent AI. I took it for a little bit (anas) but never really felt a need to.

My sleep recovered. I also take 5mg gummies of melatonin, usually 2-3 of them, before bed. But that's just for an extra bump right now while the gyms are closed so I can't get a daily workout in.

Edit: You're young. Why take supplemental exogenous test? Why not try clomid?

I'm 39 in July. My last total test was done before noon and it was sub 350ng/dl. My free test was in the mid single digits. About 6 years ago I did a month of clomid after showing a study to my urologist and it there was no change in my testosterone level. Along the way I had a test show 530ng/dl and a test show 220ng/dl. I don't know why there is such variability, but my average number over the last 5+ years has been 300-350ng/dl.

Is 39 young for TRT? What's the difference between taking clomid and anastrazole daily vs injecting testosterone 2X per week? Testosterone seems to be the easier and much much better route vs taking breast cancer medication and fertility drugs daily. TRT isn't some sort of death sentence or lifetime commitment IMO. I can just stop any time I want and I will be fine.